The Swamp

There are people in the military and law enforcement fields I don't want having guns.

Even the security forces career field (the guys and girls on Air Force bases that check your IDs when you come through that guard the gates) have to fire only every 6 months in order to stay qualified.

I have to qualify every year before deployments to war zones. We don't just get to go to the range every day as part of our daily jobs to maintain currency. In New Jersey for predeployment training we only had 1 of our 10 academic days as "range day." A couple of the other days we had simunition.

This idea that military people will help is bullshit.

But yes, let's give them to educators who will have act under extreme duress while simultaneously making sure they don't kill anyone accidentally. Even the greatest tactics from the most proficient will still not be good enough.

Didn't even have the balls to answer the fucking question.

I defy anyone to prove Marco Rubio doesn’t ask permission to go to the bathroom.

My unit (sophomore us hist) right now is focused on the sources of antebellum reform movement, one of which we are focusing on at the moment is the democratic nature of the second great awakening and the role-shift women experienced by leaving the domestic sphere like the Lowell mill girls. I showed the Emma Gonzalez speech and asked them what makes her watchable, why does she stand out?

Groups who traditionally whispered in the conversation concerning public
policy found a voice (ie womwn) and used that voice to achieve reforms in numerous areas of social and political lfe. .

While many social modern reform moments are born or led from students, it’s usually not
High school age. I think cell phone video technology here, just like live tv broadcast
Of the children’s march in Birmingham can be the difference potentially seeing significant reform despite the entrenched interest.

I’m optimistic about the future of America for the first time in years. It just sucks that the optimism is sparked by the deaths of these 17 community members.

cerrano wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:28 am I’m optimistic about the future of America for the first time in years. It just sucks that the optimism is sparked by the deaths of these 17 community members.

Did you see in Dave Chappelle's stand up regarding Emmitt Till being murdered how the white woman he whistled at lied, but the end result was the kickoff for civil rights action for black people? It's kinda like that.

Square Rob wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:02 pm Guys, drug laws clearly don't work because junkies will still want to get high, so we should just get rid of drug laws. SO MAYBE WE MAKE MEDICINE ILLEGAL!

Guys, speed limits clearly don't work because everyone still speed, so we should just get rid of speed limits. SO WE SHOULD BAN ALL CARS, RIGHT?

Guys, DUI laws clearly don't work because drunk drivers will just drive anyway so we should get rid of DUI laws. BUT IT'S FINE TO SELL BOOZE WHENEVER AND WHEREVER, PFFT!

Guys, bad guys who wanna kill people are just gonna do it anyway so it doesn't make sense to implement gun control. SECOND AMENDMENT BITCHESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Edited with RW responses.

cerrano wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:28 am
Groups who traditionally whispered in the conversation concerning public
policy found a voice (ie womwn) and used that voice to achieve reforms in numerous areas of social and political lfe. .

While many social modern reform moments are born or led from students, it’s usually not
High school age. I think cell phone video technology here, just like live tv broadcast
Of the children’s march in Birmingham can be the difference potentially seeing significant reform despite the entrenched interest.

I’m optimistic about the future of America for the first time in years. It just sucks that the optimism is sparked by the deaths of these 17 community members.

My wife said almost the exact same thing this morning. After the Me Too movement made some drastic shifts in the public consciousness, I think these kids might be able to get Congress to act. Maybe. Hell, the vile bitch from the NRA said we need to keep guns out of the hands of mentally ill people. If the NRA is saying that, and an overwhelming majority of Americans want that, why did Congress pass laws making it easier for mentally ill people to buy guns?

Ron Swanson. American hero.

This is a good start:

Fuck is it awesome to watch Little Marco get his shit pushed in.



Also, this article was a nice little read today: Of Course Smart Teens Are Better at Grilling Politicians Than Reporters

Two things I've learned from this episode:

- Stoneman Douglas High must be a really good school. I'm sure they have their assortment of knuckleheads and C students, but the kids I've seen being interviewed are pretty amazing.

-Conservatives need to learn better then to get into social media fights with teenagers. That's their home turf.

Imagine, if you will, being so depraved in your lascivious fetishization of guns that after your own kid is involved in a school shooting your first thought is "Fuck CNN, I must protect the guns."

And you put your kid on Tucker Carlson to do it.

Parkland shooting survivor's family shops doctored emails with CNN to media outlets

Oooh, yes. Drag Donald Trump's sidepiece into this.

how traumatic would it be for a teacher to have to live with themselves if they had to shoot a kid, even one who is an active shooter? Second, I read somewhere that trained law enforcement personnel only hit what they are aiming at 18% of the time...how do we expect teachers to be useful...Finally, and I mean no disrespect to Johnnie or any other ex military...but to those people calling for retired military personnel to be armed and put on campuses, dont a disproportionate amount of ex military folks have ptsd and severe mental health issues? Are we discussing literally arming crazy people and putting them on campuses with kids? The morbid part of me wants tp see the republican and NRA response when some ex seal commando blows away little Timmy mid juice box when he reaches for a crayon, but I realize thats probably just me

TT2.0 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:32 am Finally, and I mean no disrespect to Johnnie or any other ex military...but to those people calling for retired military personnel to be armed and put on campuses, dont a disproportionate amount of ex military folks have ptsd and severe mental health issues?

I'm not sure of the stats, but if 20+ veterans a day are committing suicide, and many others are stuck in the VA system awaiting meds, that is a very valid point to bring up and I'm dumb for not thinking of it first.

Christ, military members in the service now don't get enough training. And there's no such thing as "enough training" in the first place. I'm sure I've posted this before, but it's worth watching again.



Side tangent, non sequitur: John McCain spent 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton. He retired 8 years later and then the following year he was in Congress. You telling me that guy never suffered from PTSD?

Johnnie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:52 am

TT2.0 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:32 am Finally, and I mean no disrespect to Johnnie or any other ex military...but to those people calling for retired military personnel to be armed and put on campuses, dont a disproportionate amount of ex military folks have ptsd and severe mental health issues?

I'm not sure of the stats, but if 20+ veterans a day are committing suicide, and many others are stuck in the VA system awaiting meds, that is a very valid point to bring up and I'm dumb for not thinking of it first.

Christ, military members in the service now don't get enough training. And there's no such thing as "enough training" in the first place. I'm sure I've posted this before, but it's worth watching again.



Side tangent, non sequitur: John McCain spent 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton. He retired 8 years later and then the following year he was in Congress. You telling me that guy never suffered from PTSD?

not until he had to campaign with Palin

DaveInSeattle wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:56 pm Two things I've learned from this episode:

- Stoneman Douglas High must be a really good school. I'm sure they have their assortment of knuckleheads and C students, but the kids I've seen being interviewed are pretty amazing.

-Conservatives need to learn better then to get into social media fights with teenagers. That's their home turf.

Well, that school also produced a mass murderer.

Seeing a lot of the 2A types going after the sheriff's department for not entering the school as a means to defend MUH FREEDOMS.

But I bet if those same sheriffs shot and killed an unarmed black man they'd be praised with having THE TOUGHEST JOB IN THE WORLD. BLUE LIVES MATTER.

It's almost as if there are people that are bad at their jobs for various reasons. Especially if it involves a lack of training.

(Honestly, I bet the cops were outgunned and out ammo'd and realized they may be going into a death trap and wouldn't have been able to save everyone while putting themselves at risk to be murdered. This isn't a movie. But hey. Guns.)

Johnnie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:36 pm Seeing a lot of the 2A types going after the sheriff's department for not entering the school as a means to defend MUH FREEDOMS.

But I bet if those same sheriffs shot and killed an unarmed black man they'd be praised with having THE TOUGHEST JOB IN THE WORLD. BLUE LIVES MATTER.

It's almost as if there are people that are bad at their jobs for various reasons. Especially if it involves a lack of training.

(Honestly, I bet the cops were outgunned and out ammo'd and realized they may be going into a death trap and wouldn't have been able to save everyone while putting themselves at risk to be murdered. This isn't a movie. But hey. Guns.)

I wonder if the initial security guard was following the protocol for the situation....mainly "Wait For Backup".

In the last 10 years or so there’s been a shift in protocol from “establish a perimeter and attack the situation from a position of safety” to “get in there as soon as posible and isolate/address the threat.”

Active shooter training is a thing, but I bet it’s a thing that a retirement age school resource officer doesn’t get a lot of. At my department, which trains much more than the average, most active shooter simunition training is done by the newest officers.

I think officers would have been trained not to run into a building with an active situation.

First off, let's look at it as the officer knowing the exact situation that was occurring. That an ex-student was indiscriminately shooting students.

Running into the building would be actively going against the waves of any students trying to get out of the building. They would now be faced with another gun, if they only hear any shots from the officer, they are now going to lose their shit and run away from the exit. He's also a physical barrier in the way of the students escape...Terrible idea.

Even if the officer was able to confront the gunman, the potential chaos of the situation and students running all over the place (especially with additional shots coming from the exits now) puts them at more risk of getting shot by a second gun. Imagine the outrage that a uniformed police officer shot an innocent child by accident, which is a pretty damn likely event if he's running into that mess.

But why the fuck would we assume he knew the situation? He had no more information about what was going on then anyone did at the time. What if it had become a hostage situation and not an indiscriminate shooting? What if the gunman had a classroom full of students and wanted to talk to the police, but now some dumbass wannabe-hero comes bursting into the school with a pistol drawn, great way to turn that hostage situation into a deadly mess.

No, police are not trained to run into a building without information, without a clear agenda.

If he had actively ran away from the shooter, sure, call him a coward. But not running into an unknown situation? That's the smart and right idea. Holding the door open and gathering as much information (how many shooters for starters) would have been the proper response.

It's actually pretty disgusting that his own police force turned on him like that. And Trump is an asshole.

Moreta wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:16 pm In the last 10 years or so there’s been a shift in protocol from “establish a perimeter and attack the situation from a position of safety” to “get in there as soon as posible and isolate/address the threat.”

Active shooter training is a thing, but I bet it’s a thing that a retirement age school resource officer doesn’t get a lot of. At my department, which trains much more than the average, most active shooter simunition training is done by the newest officers.

Degen wrote:No, police are not trained to run into a building without information, without a clear agenda.

If he had actively ran away from the shooter, sure, call him a coward. But not running into an unknown situation? That's the smart and right idea. Holding the door open and gathering as much information (how many shooters for starters) would have been the proper response.

It's actually pretty disgusting that his own police force turned on him like that. And Trump is an asshole.

Perfect timing for me to read these posts. I just got off the phone with my father, and man did he have a lot to say about the shooting. As you may recall, my father was a parole officer his whole career, and he refuses to discuss anything he has done in his early career. When I was a about 12 years old, I found some medals he earned, and asked how he got them. He stared at me and said, "I was young and stupid, and you will never ask me about that again." He walked away, and my mom said he never told her, either.

First, my father was adamantly defending the Deputies for not going in. His take was that unless they orders to go in, he thinks they were waiting for the order. He retired more than 10 years ago, so he was living under Moreta's old MO. He was saying the failure probably came from the Sheriff in being too slow to formulate a plan and give out orders. Maybe the shift in theory Moreta mentioned changes where the blame falls. I think most people assume the officers should have run towards the gun fire, but it makes sense in a shootout you don't just run into the middle of it without a plan.

Then he told me about the time he was in a police station in Bed-Stuy in the 1970s, and a shootout took place right in front of the station, when two gypsy cab drivers started shooting at each other. He said station full of police, and not one ran out, they all hid until the gun fire stopped, then they ran out and tackled the shooters. Then he told me that he once made the decision to kill someone, but fortunately "the asshole stopped doing what he was about to do." He said no amount of training and preparation can prepare you for the decision to pull the trigger, and anyone who thinks you can predict how you would react is full of shit.

DaveInSeattle wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:06 pm I wonder if the initial security guard was following the protocol for the situation....mainly "Wait For Backup".

Just to clarify, the guy wasn't a security guard, he was a cop. Just a school resource officer, but a cop nonetheless. That's why the cops were pissed at him.

Israel made the decision to suspend Peterson -- who was armed and in uniform at the time of the shooting -- after interviewing the deputy and reviewing footage and witness statements, he said.

"What I saw was a deputy arrive at the west side of building 12, take up a position," Israel said of the video. "And he never went in."

Israel told reporters Peterson should have "[w]ent in. Addressed the killer. Killed the killer." Instead, the deputy waited outside for about four minutes. During that time, Israel said, Peterson got on his radio and took a position where he could see the western entry of the building.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:28 amHe said no amount of training and preparation can prepare you for the decision to pull the trigger, and anyone who thinks you can predict how you would react is full of shit.

But there are a bunch of heroic heroes talking about their heroism on social media right now.

Your dad is full of shit, sorry. /s

He should have been fired if he hadn’t quit but it’s good to realize that more often than not cops actually do throw themselves into danger to protect others.

My active shooter training said you'll respond to danger in one of three ways: flight, fight, or freeze. His was the latter, unfortunately.

I'm still unaware of the specifics, but there definitely needs to be a revamp of their training program. However, if he was outgunned, I'm not going to completely blame him. Too many variables that I am not certain of.

Johnnie wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:19 pm My active shooter training said you'll respond to danger in one of three ways: flight, fight, or freeze. His was the latter, unfortunately.

I'm still unaware of the specifics, but there definitely needs to be a revamp of their training program. However, if he was outgunned, I'm not going to completely blame him. Too many variables that I am not certain of.

You know who else was outgunned?

The students?

Dana Loesch is a big huge liar. Shocking.

Video Shows NRA's Dana Loesch Lied About Town-Hall Audience Attacking Her

Sidenote: her doppelbangher is Gina Carano, right? And her porn doppelbangher is either Romi Rain or Taryn Thomas, right?

Johnnie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:18 am And her porn doppelbangher is either Romi Rain or Taryn Thomas, right?

Definitely?

Johnnie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:18 am Dana Loesch is a big huge liar. Shocking.

Video Shows NRA's Dana Loesch Lied About Town-Hall Audience Attacking Her

Sidenote: her doppelbangher is Gina Carano, right? And her porn doppelbangher is either Romi Rain or Taryn Thomas, right?

You sure know your porn!

Johnnie wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:21 am

The Sybian wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:28 amHe said no amount of training and preparation can prepare you for the decision to pull the trigger, and anyone who thinks you can predict how you would react is full of shit.

But there are a bunch of heroic heroes talking about their heroism on social media right now.

Your dad is full of shit, sorry. /s

Most notably Cadet Bonespurs, as discussed in the indictment thread (Trump said if he was at the school, he would have run towards the gunfire whether he had a gun or not).

Pruitt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:53 am

Johnnie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:18 am Dana Loesch is a big huge liar. Shocking.

Video Shows NRA's Dana Loesch Lied About Town-Hall Audience Attacking Her

Sidenote: her doppelbangher is Gina Carano, right? And her porn doppelbangher is either Romi Rain or Taryn Thomas, right?

You sure know your porn!

I'm a pornnoisseur, what can I say?

Adriana Chechik. You're welcome.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:30 pm

Johnnie wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:21 am

The Sybian wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:28 amHe said no amount of training and preparation can prepare you for the decision to pull the trigger, and anyone who thinks you can predict how you would react is full of shit.

But there are a bunch of heroic heroes talking about their heroism on social media right now.

Your dad is full of shit, sorry. /s

Most notably Cadet Bonespurs, as discussed in the indictment thread (Trump said if he was at the school, he would have run towards the gunfire whether he had a gun or not).

As part of my predeployment training we had a day of tactical combat casualty care.

It involved a hands on portion and PowerPoint/video portion. We watched a video of a firefight involving Marines and a sniper. One dude got hit and fell to the ground. 1 casualty. A marine rushed into rescue him. No rifle. No helmet. He got hit dragging the dude away. 2 casualties. Then a third rushed in. No helmet. No rifle. 3 casualties. This was an area with no cover or concealment. It was a textbook example of what not to do.

I say that to say this. Life isn't a movie. You do something epically fucking stupid, you'll lose. Play dumb games, win dumb prizes. Everyone is always big and bad on social media saying what they would've done. The 2A types are the worst at this.

The Root always has the best headlines for their stories.

This Punk-Ass President Out Here Talking ’Bout How He Would’ve Run Into That Florida School Without a Gun

I just signed a dumb petition to get Amazon to drop the NRA channel. I'm looking at companies still doing business with the NRA and for the first time in my life I think I'm going to actually engage with a boycott.

I live in a state where my vote doesn't really move the needle (in a good way.) But trying to figure out a way to affect change is where I'm at now. I'll probably look at races where an NRA lackey is in trouble as places to donate as we get into the summer and races start to heat up.

Small dollars, to be sure, but it's something.

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:01 am I just signed a dumb petition to get Amazon to drop the NRA channel. I'm looking at companies still doing business with the NRA and for the first time in my life I think I'm going to actually engage with a boycott.

I live in a state where my vote doesn't really move the needle (in a good way.) But trying to figure out a way to affect change is where I'm at now. I'll probably look at races where an NRA lackey is in trouble as places to donate as we get into the summer and races start to heat up.

Small dollars, to be sure, but it's something.

Awesome.

Any never think that your vote doesn't move the needle. From small communities and beyond, if there are enough of you it will move the needle.

My point is that I live in one of the most liberal counties in one of the most liberal states in the country. I have never had to even think about NRA as a filter when I'm in the voting booth.

I have dropped dollars on a number of the special elections and even though it is only $5 here, $10 there, it feels good to do something.

And the thing is, that shit adds up. What got me really motivated was when when Kal Penn started a fund after somebody said something racist to him on Twitter. He thought he'd raise a couple hundred bucks and turn that over to the International Rescue Committee. A week later he's sitting on $800,000 and most of that came from very low dollar pledges.