Women's World Cup

Brontoburglar · Post by **Brontoburglar** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:51 pm

Ryan wrote:Just now finding out Lauren Holiday is married to Jrue Holiday. Those kids, if they choose to have them, will be good at things

She just retired from international soccer and is going to finish the NWSL season and will focus on family.

So yeah, the 2039 WWC could have a Holiday on it.

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:59 pm

mister d wrote:There seems to be a major divide on Solo.

Easy pass if she weren't famous.

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:06 pm

Brontoburglar wrote:
Ryan wrote:Just now finding out Lauren Holiday is married to Jrue Holiday. Those kids, if they choose to have them, will be good at things
She just retired from international soccer and is going to finish the NWSL season and will focus on family.

So yeah, the 2039 WWC could have a Holiday on it.

So could the 2026 WC.

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:07 pm

DaveInSeattle wrote:I respect your opinion DC, but there's no way you can dismiss the US's victory as "luck"....not when it was 5-2. That's just an old fashioned butt kicking.

There are no perfect analogies. But imagine this one in a Superbowl game.

The Detroit Lions score four times early in the first half. They return three punts for touchdowns, then recover their own on-side kick after the second one and score on the play after a lateral. Then the Seahawks' kick returner, looking straight into the sun because they allowed the Superbowl to be played under adverse conditions (and the Seahawks lost the toss), drops the ball in the end-zone and the Lions recover the football.

The Seahawks are so far down that they are forced to abandon their great running game, putting Marshawn Lynch on the bench most of the time, and throw 50 passes against a Lions defense that was playing deep. They score twice, and the Lions score once in the remainder of the game.

Final score: Lions 35, Seahawks 14.

Since it's roughly twice as easy to score in American football, a more relevant adjusted score would be Lions 70, Seahawks 28.

How many would say this is a decisive victory which demonstrates the superiority of the Lions?

How many would say that the Lions got enormously lucky in their early scores, particularly in a secondary aspect of the game (special teams), which changed the nature of the game so that it couldn't be a normal contest between two teams that were both able to use their normal strategy, and which made the outcome a fluke?

I would be in the latter camp. I would also recognize that special teams are part of the game of football, that the Lions had to successfully execute on their scoring plays, and that luck plays at least a modest role in every game. Despite being a life-long Lions fan, I'd be saddened by not being able to see a genuine championship contest between the two teams.

Post by **brian** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:10 pm

I think the most important question is which team got moved to the AFC in this scenario.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:13 pm

DC47 wrote:How many would say that the Lions got enormously lucky in their early scores, particularly in a secondary aspect of the game (special teams), which changed the nature of the game so that it couldn't be a normal contest between two teams that were both able to use their normal strategy, and which made the outcome a fluke?

All the Seahawks fans, you, and...that's pretty much it?

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:15 pm

P.D.X. wrote:
mister d wrote:There seems to be a major divide on Solo.
Easy pass if she weren't famous.

Absolutely. If everyone had to rank the entire squad, I have no doubt she would be the highest variance player.

(Unless you have a lot of racists in your sample.)

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:17 pm

brian wrote:I think the most important question is which team got moved to the AFC in this scenario.

Neither. The NFL changed the rules just before the play-offs began so that the Lions got a free pass to the Superbowl. It was said to be an attempt at reducing the historic inequality of the NFL, where the Lions have not played for a championship in almost 60 years.

In other news, Roger Goodell retired right after the game and is now running his private company that owns all the Ford dealerships in Asia.

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:20 pm

Ryan wrote:
DC47 wrote:How many would say that the Lions got enormously lucky in their early scores, particularly in a secondary aspect of the game (special teams), which changed the nature of the game so that it couldn't be a normal contest between two teams that were both able to use their normal strategy, and which made the outcome a fluke?
All the Seahawks fans, you, and...that's pretty much it?

True, I may be assuming too much intelligence in fans of American football. But maybe a few Packers fans would join in, as they hate the Lions. And of course, all the non-aligned gamblers who lost money on the game. They would assume that something this flukey would have been a fix.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:24 pm

The NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS once lost a decent shot at a Super Bowl because of a Desmond Howard kick return and I've never heard any NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS FAN say the Packers got lucky

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:27 pm

Well, Patriots' fans are known as a stoic bunch. Perhaps if Howard had returned four kicks for touchdowns a few might have begun to crack.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:31 pm

Or the music city miracle.

Was not a great Japanese team so I don't buy the luck angle. They won 6 1-goal matches so it could be considered really lucky for them too.

I do see DC's point of the the American being physical and just winning and if other teams get their shit together the US could be in trouble, but that's a big if. Europe will be strong as they are finally putting money into it. Asia will still be ok with the big 5 (Japan, South Korea, North Korea, China and Australia). The rest? Who knows.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:37 pm

Japan is known for being weak on set pieces. the US exploited an opponent's weakness multiple times. That's strategy. #3 looked like a total idiot on those first two goals and I bet the US knew that.

Lloyd noticed the goalkeeper was out of position and acted accordingly, just like if the safety didn't shade over to help cover Megatron and Stafford threw a 70 yard bomb. Strategy? No. Reacting in a world-class manner with phenomenal skill? Absolutely. The sun is just a bit of rub of the green. The GK made a bad play and paid the price.

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:56 pm

Thank God. Where the fuck were you guys yesterday. I was starting to doubt my sanity.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:58 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote:Thank God. Where the fuck were you guys yesterday. I was starting to doubt my sanity.

No, no, it's all good. When a team gives up four special teams TDs in football but otherwise outscores its opponent 21-7 besides the 4 TDs it gave up on special teams, the team that was good enough to score 4 special teams TDs deserved to lose and, is, in effect, the losing team.

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:09 pm

I think the keeper's terrible footwork was more to blame than the sun. She got a hand to the ball so she clearly wasn't blinded.

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:15 pm

Having been in a position of being chipped like that (never, thankfully THAT far out), it's an incredibly uncomfortable and awkward feeling. It's kind of hard to describe, but your stomach drops and you can get pretty flustered. We just aren't used to having to backpedal more than 6-7 yards... She had to backpedal pretty close to 14 or 15. It's not something you train for (edit: regularly) and, like I said, when that ball goes up it can stun you in classic deer/headlight mode.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:20 pm

I assume its pretty akin to getting spun around in the outfield and that's as helpless as I've ever felt athletically.

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:21 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote:Having been in a position of being chipped like that (never, thankfully THAT far out), it's an incredibly uncomfortable and awkward feeling. It's kind of hard to describe, but your stomach drops and you can get pretty flustered.

word. I never had that feeling on a baseball field or basketball court.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:24 pm

mister d wrote:I assume its pretty akin to getting spun around in the outfield and that's as helpless as I've ever felt athletically.

Yes. With enough time to wonder why my feet won't work as it was happening.

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:35 pm

P.D.X. wrote:I think the keeper's terrible footwork was more to blame than the sun. She got a hand to the ball so she clearly wasn't blinded.

You lose depth perception when looking into a low sun. So it's hard to go back properly. When the ball is right on you in a stadium you're not staring into the sun, and you can see it well enough to take a stab at it.

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:55 pm

Sun made her trip. Got it.

Brontoburglar · Post by **Brontoburglar** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:02 pm

govmentchedda wrote:
Brontoburglar wrote:
Ryan wrote:Just now finding out Lauren Holiday is married to Jrue Holiday. Those kids, if they choose to have them, will be good at things
She just retired from international soccer and is going to finish the NWSL season and will focus on family.

So yeah, the 2039 WWC could have a Holiday on it.
So could the 2026 WC.

What am I missing here?

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:24 pm

DC47 wrote:
P.D.X. wrote:I think the keeper's terrible footwork was more to blame than the sun. She got a hand to the ball so she clearly wasn't blinded.
You lose depth perception when looking into a low sun. So it's hard to go back properly. When the ball is right on you in a stadium you're not staring into the sun, and you can see it well enough to take a stab at it.

The game started at 4pm PDT. That was what, the third goal of the game? Sunset was at 9:20pm PDT. How low was the sun five hours before sunset?

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:53 pm

Brontoburglar wrote:
govmentchedda wrote:
Brontoburglar wrote:
Ryan wrote:Just now finding out Lauren Holiday is married to Jrue Holiday. Those kids, if they choose to have them, will be good at things
She just retired from international soccer and is going to finish the NWSL season and will focus on family.

So yeah, the 2039 WWC could have a Holiday on it.
So could the 2026 WC.
What am I missing here?

They could have a soccer playing son.

Post by **brian** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:19 pm

Who would be at best 10 years old in the 2026 WC

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:32 pm

Ah, fuck me and maths.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:41 pm

He's really good! Ann is anorexic!

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:47 am

DSafetyGuy wrote:
DC47 wrote:
P.D.X. wrote:I think the keeper's terrible footwork was more to blame than the sun. She got a hand to the ball so she clearly wasn't blinded.
You lose depth perception when looking into a low sun. So it's hard to go back properly. When the ball is right on you in a stadium you're not staring into the sun, and you can see it well enough to take a stab at it.
The game started at 4pm PDT. That was what, the third goal of the game? Sunset was at 9:20pm PDT. How low was the sun five hours before sunset?

Low enough so that when USA won the toss they chose to defend the goal that wasn't facing the sun. Even the absurdly USA-biased (as well as remarkably stupid) announcing team on Fox recognized the sun factor.

While I'm thinking of it, that sunny stadium was loaded with USA fans. It was in many ways a home game for USA and an away game for Japan. In most soccer games, the home team is assumed to have a significant advantage. More luck for the USA.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:09 am

Weird to see such trolling on this board. Whatever makes you happy, DC. Haven't dusted off the ignore function in awhile. Props.

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:55 am

Just because the majority don't agree with a minority opinion doesn't make it trolling. He thinks they got lucky. DC isn't being disrespectful so far as I can tell. Why the need to ignore people with differing opinions? Sometimes it's pretty black and white but sports and especially strategy and tactics within sports certainly merits discussion and differing opinions, yea?

Aren't we all here for that? And the scores on the front page?

duff · Post by **duff** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:49 am

DC keeps talking about how 'lucky' the US was, but take a look at the two goals scored by Japan.

The first one, Johnston fell down on while defending. To me, that was caused by the artificial turf. So out of her control, just like the sun. So that was an extremely lucky goal. Doesn't matter that she was out of position (just like the Japanese goalie on Lloyd's third goal, or any of their defenders on the set pieces), it was all because of the environment around them. Natural grass, and I have to believe that she doesn't fall and forces the kick to go wide of the goal.

And the second goal came off a set piece and was directed in by a US player. Japan had nothing to do with that. And it wasn't in the run of play. It was pure luck that Johnston (once again) headed the ball the wrong direction. The Japanese didn't even take advantage of that misplay like Holiday did with her goal. Even though the mistake by the Japanese defender was more egregious. That was just a terrible play on the ball.

DaveInSeattle · Post by **DaveInSeattle** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:57 am

DC47 wrote:
DaveInSeattle wrote:I respect your opinion DC, but there's no way you can dismiss the US's victory as "luck"....not when it was 5-2. That's just an old fashioned butt kicking.
There are no perfect analogies. But imagine this one in a Superbowl game.

The Detroit Lions score four times early in the first half. They return three punts for touchdowns, then recover their own on-side kick after the second one and score on the play after a lateral. Then the Seahawks' kick returner, looking straight into the sun because they allowed the Superbowl to be played under adverse conditions (and the Seahawks lost the toss), drops the ball in the end-zone and the Lions recover the football.

The Seahawks are so far down that they are forced to abandon their great running game, putting Marshawn Lynch on the bench most of the time, and throw 50 passes against a Lions defense that was playing deep. They score twice, and the Lions score once in the remainder of the game.

Final score: Lions 35, Seahawks 14.

Since it's roughly twice as easy to score in American football, a more relevant adjusted score would be Lions 70, Seahawks 28.

How many would say this is a decisive victory which demonstrates the superiority of the Lions?

How many would say that the Lions got enormously lucky in their early scores, particularly in a secondary aspect of the game (special teams), which changed the nature of the game so that it couldn't be a normal contest between two teams that were both able to use their normal strategy, and which made the outcome a fluke?

I would be in the latter camp. I would also recognize that special teams are part of the game of football, that the Lions had to successfully execute on their scoring plays, and that luck plays at least a modest role in every game. Despite being a life-long Lions fan, I'd be saddened by not being able to see a genuine championship contest between the two teams.

So a blow-out is more of a "lucky" win then a close game decided by one incredible 50-50 play that could have gone either way? That's crazy talk...

To go further with your analogy, you are saying that the Seahawks blowing out the Broncos was pure luck, where as losing to the Pats on a last second interception (just fucking hand the ball to Marshawn! DAMMIT!) was a more authentic "championship contest"? Really?

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:58 am

They should probably still be playing 0-0 right now, waiting for either team to recreate that Brazilian goal I saw on a filmstrip that one time.

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:39 am

BSF21 wrote:Just because the majority don't agree with a minority opinion doesn't make it trolling.

BSF, it could also be that this thread is one of many that make someone hold this opinion.

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:44 am

DSafetyGuy wrote:
BSF21 wrote:Just because the majority don't agree with a minority opinion doesn't make it trolling.
BSF, it could also be that this thread is one of many that make someone hold this opinion.

Perhaps. Trolling is more being a dismissive dick. From what I've read there are some differing viewpoints and most people, DC included, have taken the time to type out responses to support their position. I don't agree, but it seems better than a sarcastic snark and dismissive attitude. I was happy someone at least read what I write and tried to educate me. Any view or opinions to a novice fan of the sport are somewhat constructive.

I'm going back to the hockey thread. I'm of more use there.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:53 am

I don't know why I am bothering to jump in, but here goes... Set pieces are anything but luck. Teams spend a huge amount of time practicing set pieces, both offensively and defensively. A high percentage of goals come off of set pieces. The first goal was a scripted play that caught Japan off guard. You could say it is like a flea flicker or other scripted trick play in the NFL. It worked, that is in no way luck. Lloyd reacted faster on both of her first 2 goals, and finished where other players have choked. The first goal was a sweet finish off the outside of her left foot (weaker foot?). How is that luck?

The reason the US jumped out to a huge lead was a result of them coming out full fury, moving the ball quickly in attack, and pressuring deep, causing Japan to fall back on their heels and make mistakes. It's like a Rex Ryan defense blitzing the fuck out of a team and causing a fumble. Is it luck that a D-lineman beat his blocker and blew up the QB from behind causing a fumble? By your definition, every conceivable play in sports is luck. Special teams in football is 1/3 of the team. Teams practice the fuck out of special teams, and having great special teams play is a valuable weapon. Special teams play isn't a coin toss, it is heavily influenced by coaching, putting together a good unit, and spending cap money on a good return man, punter, kicker, whatever. It is a strategic part of the game, and succeeding, in and of itself on special teams is not luck.

As for luck causing the Japanese to play outside of their style, it also caused the US to sit back and play the equivalent of prevent defense, and suddenly Japan was able to hold possession and play some offense. When Japan scored their second, the US kicked it up a gear and immediately scored. If anything, the change in tactics after going down 4-0 helped Japan.

duff · Post by **duff** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:01 am

Preparation for the game was the key to the quick start. It wasn't all 'luck'. Japan came out timid and it showed. They allowed the US to get set plays. They didn't react to those set plays. They seemed off balance and not ready to play. Those are not characteristics of a team that is better.

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:21 am

Pretty much all sports have scoring means that occur "outside the run of play" (free throws, field goals, etc.). Taking advantage of them doesn't besmirch the spirit of the competition.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:34 am

Corner kicks don't happen by accident. Free kicks close enough to threaten the goal don't happen by accident. Teams win the right to a corner, teams win the right to free kicks in scoring places on the pitch. Teams that are getting their asses kicked cannot sniff a corner.

It just runs counter to all I know about soccer to dismiss scoring plays that result from hard work to win the right to put a ball in the box as "luck". Just weird. And pretty troll'y.