The Swamp

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:05 pm**

Nice.

Marques Brownlee recently reviewed Lucid. Ridiculously expensive. I've seen only one in the wild.

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:30 pm**

There are a couple Rivian pickup trucks I’ve seen around here lately. Really interesting look.

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:47 pm**

sancarlos wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:30 pm There are a couple Rivian pickup trucks I’ve seen around here lately. Really interesting look.

I saw a job opening at Rivian about 6 months ago and hadn't heard of them at the time, so I looked at their website and it's a really cool truck, especially if you plan on taking it camping. A ton of features, like a built-in tent that opens over the bed of the truck, numerous outlets throughout the exterior to plug in appliances, tvs, or charge your phone. I've seen a bunch on the streets, my daughter thinks they look stupid, but I thought it was extremely innovative.

Drove past a Lucid over the summer, and it sure as hell caught my eye. Unique and cool looking, but they start at $155,000 before you add the features. I think it's like Tesla, where you design your car online and every option has additional costs.

ETA: Looks like the Lucid Air Touring starts at $155,000, the Air Pure is the least expensive starting at $87,000 and the Air Saphire starts at $250,000. The Saphire is pre-production and will have 1,200 HP, a top speed over 200mph and 0-60 in under 2 seconds. What could go wrong?

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:11 am**

Since Rivian announced production I’ve had my eye on that pickup as my first EV purchase (I’ve driven mostly trucks over the past 25 years)…the problem is they’ve been struggling financially so I’m not sure about long term viability/support. I’ve seen two here in Longmont and they do look nice.

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:54 am**

Doug DeMuro covered both the R1S and R1T if you're curious about their quirks and features. They look pretty cool.

Also, Syb, if you thought Lucid was unnecessarily expensive, check out the Cadillac Celestiq.

(Seems like the letter Q has been bogarted by Cadillac to distinguish their EVs.)

It's starts at $300k and goes from there.

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:22 pm**

Perhaps the makers of Cadillac think they they are still viewed the way they were back in the olden days, as the super-prestige brand.

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:41 pm**

Y’all, it’s really worth discussing what the fuck is gonna happen with Tesla. If someone told me today that they will collapse as a business in the next six months I might believe them.

So, I bought a model 3 in March. Extended range battery, self driving capable, and the performance acceleration. It’s nice, and is stupid fun to drive. Because of the move overseas the wisest course of action is to sell it. One of the reasons we bought the car was at the time, 9 long months ago, they had far and away the best resale value on the market and had for several years. Demand far outweighed the available inventory. People were buying my version for as high as $67-68k just to get one. We’ve had ours listed in a couple of places since august. We were in no immediate hurry to sell it so weren’t pushing it that hard (didn’t want to rent a car for months as we waited). We also ran by our local guy we’ve bought other cars from just to see. He offered $55k, because they don’t sell them and would go through the auction process. That price made sense given they need to make a buck, but we decided no and would try more for a private sale.

Well, meanwhile Elmo has been having his very public meltdown on Twitter and alienating a huge chunk of his customer base, the demand for the cars has positively dropped out the bottom. We’ve spent the last week aggressively selling and are now being offered in the $40k range, and some as low as $30k. The car is pristine, indistinguishable from when I bought it, and it’s dropped 40% in value in five months. When we talked to some dealerships, they said hell no, they were under specific instructions to not buy any due to the complete deterioration in the market. We had one guy tell us that he sold one last week at a $10k loss just to avoid losing any more. I’m fortunate that I can take the hit and tick it up as a life lesson. But fucks sake.

That’s a major problem for a company with as wide a market share as they have. I’m honestly not sure it’s actually recoverable without significant changes. And Tesla has a specific policy that they do NOT buy and sell used cars. They accept trade-ins and only trade-ins. So they sell very expensive cars that are closely getting to a point that they have no resale value, while their key selling point is being undermined daily by their ceo as a result of his own separate business boondoggle. Their share price has absolutely cratered at the same time that their demand has done the same. And again, the ceo is off in lala land not minding the shop. How long can the board of directors allow that to go on? I mean, it might already be too late.

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:54 pm**

It sucks you're going through that, man. I'm sorry.

Tesla's stock has been grossly overvalued for some time now, so the dip shouldn't have been unexpected.

However, a huge chunk of their revenue originates in China and they're pushing hard with their own EV market.

Then you add the accelerant of Elon's Musk to the whole thing and I quickly decided I'll never buy a Tesla.

I think Elon even sold a huge amount of his shares recently too? Anyhoo, dude's a fucking nut case.

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:11 pm**

Square Rob wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:41 pm Y’all, it’s really worth discussing what the fuck is gonna happen with Tesla. If someone told me today that they will collapse as a business in the next six months I might believe them.

So, I bought a model 3 in March. Extended range battery, self driving capable, and the performance acceleration. It’s nice, and is stupid fun to drive. Because of the move overseas the wisest course of action is to sell it. One of the reasons we bought the car was at the time, 9 long months ago, they had far and away the best resale value on the market and had for several years. Demand far outweighed the available inventory. People were buying my version for as high as $67-68k just to get one. We’ve had ours listed in a couple of places since august. We were in no immediate hurry to sell it so weren’t pushing it that hard (didn’t want to rent a car for months as we waited). We also ran by our local guy we’ve bought other cars from just to see. He offered $55k, because they don’t sell them and would go through the auction process. That price made sense given they need to make a buck, but we decided no and would try more for a private sale.

Well, meanwhile Elmo has been having his very public meltdown on Twitter and alienating a huge chunk of his customer base, the demand for the cars has positively dropped out the bottom. We’ve spent the last week aggressively selling and are now being offered in the $40k range, and some as low as $30k. The car is pristine, indistinguishable from when I bought it, and it’s dropped 40% in value in five months. When we talked to some dealerships, they said hell no, they were under specific instructions to not buy any due to the complete deterioration in the market. We had one guy tell us that he sold one last week at a $10k loss just to avoid losing any more. I’m fortunate that I can take the hit and tick it up as a life lesson. But fucks sake.

That’s a major problem for a company with as wide a market share as they have. I’m honestly not sure it’s actually recoverable without significant changes. And Tesla has a specific policy that they do NOT buy and sell used cars. They accept trade-ins and only trade-ins. So they sell very expensive cars that are closely getting to a point that they have no resale value, while their key selling point is being undermined daily by their ceo as a result of his own separate business boondoggle. Their share price has absolutely cratered at the same time that their demand has done the same. And again, the ceo is off in lala land not minding the shop. How long can the board of directors allow that to go on? I mean, it might already be too late.

So you are not excited for a straight trade for my 4 cylinder Subaru Impreza hatchback? Will throw in the Thule Roof Rack and Thule Trailer rack. 70K miles but original owner, new tires, and a new passenger seat cushion in the last year.

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:29 pm**

If you can get the damn thing to France for me I. The next week you might have a deal. Will be buying two cheap used cars when over there.

Promoted tweet just now on hellscape telling me to buy Tesla stock. Lol.

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:00 pm**

wlu_lax6 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:11 pm… and a new passenger seat cushion in the last year.

Go on …

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:29 pm**

I've got a Y and have been looking at other options. I love everything about the driving experience, but what was once just a dislike of the dip shit Elmo, has become a major concern with the viability of the car moving forward. Had no clue prices were bottoming out. Kinda seems like maybe a time to get a deal on one, paradoxically.

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:53 pm**

Can't wait till he locks your car because you posted a mean tweet about him

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:36 am**

Square Rob wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:41 pm Y’all, it’s really worth discussing what the fuck is gonna happen with Tesla. If someone told me today that they will collapse as a business in the next six months I might believe them.

So, I bought a model 3 in March. Extended range battery, self driving capable, and the performance acceleration. It’s nice, and is stupid fun to drive. Because of the move overseas the wisest course of action is to sell it. One of the reasons we bought the car was at the time, 9 long months ago, they had far and away the best resale value on the market and had for several years. Demand far outweighed the available inventory. People were buying my version for as high as $67-68k just to get one. We’ve had ours listed in a couple of places since august. We were in no immediate hurry to sell it so weren’t pushing it that hard (didn’t want to rent a car for months as we waited). We also ran by our local guy we’ve bought other cars from just to see. He offered $55k, because they don’t sell them and would go through the auction process. That price made sense given they need to make a buck, but we decided no and would try more for a private sale.

Well, meanwhile Elmo has been having his very public meltdown on Twitter and alienating a huge chunk of his customer base, the demand for the cars has positively dropped out the bottom. We’ve spent the last week aggressively selling and are now being offered in the $40k range, and some as low as $30k. The car is pristine, indistinguishable from when I bought it, and it’s dropped 40% in value in five months. When we talked to some dealerships, they said hell no, they were under specific instructions to not buy any due to the complete deterioration in the market. We had one guy tell us that he sold one last week at a $10k loss just to avoid losing any more. I’m fortunate that I can take the hit and tick it up as a life lesson. But fucks sake.

That’s a major problem for a company with as wide a market share as they have. I’m honestly not sure it’s actually recoverable without significant changes. And Tesla has a specific policy that they do NOT buy and sell used cars. They accept trade-ins and only trade-ins. So they sell very expensive cars that are closely getting to a point that they have no resale value, while their key selling point is being undermined daily by their ceo as a result of his own separate business boondoggle. Their share price has absolutely cratered at the same time that their demand has done the same. And again, the ceo is off in lala land not minding the shop. How long can the board of directors allow that to go on? I mean, it might already be too late.

Maybe this is a *really* stupid idea, but would it make sense to store the car, at least for a while? I'd think resale value will likely recover in the next few months/years, and so if you don't absolutely need the cash right now, maybe wait out the market dip?

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:06 pm**

We talked about that and have considered it. We do have a garage space at my MiL’s we could use. But for me there’s so much uncertainty around everything Tesla I’d rather just take the hit and be done with it.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:49 pm**

Yeah, that strategy would worry me because its not like you've reached the potential bottom. An attempt to eventually recoup $10K or whatever could cost your double or triple or more.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:00 pm**

mister d wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:49 pm Yeah, that strategy would worry me because its not like you've reached the potential bottom. An attempt to eventually recoup $10K or whatever could cost your double or triple or more.

Hm. I guess the "potential bottom" would be zero, and sure, that hasn't been reached yet. But right now we're at the height of a (well-earned) anti-Musk frenzy. He's been History's Greatest Monster for the past month and then turned it up a couple of notches the past week.

That frenzy will pass, and when it does, the Tesla Model 3 will still be an awesome car.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:10 pm**

I'm going to disagree about being at the peak of Musk hatred. I think any week in the past ~2 months this could have been suggested and its still climbing. He still has two more major kills (twitter, a major / more publicized pedestrian incident) that will make right now look like silly fun.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:11 pm**

Square Rob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:06 pm We talked about that and have considered it. We do have a garage space at my MiL’s we could use. But for me there’s so much uncertainty around everything Tesla I’d rather just take the hit and be done with it.

You can store it in my garage. I’ll make sure to exercise the gaskets every week.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:21 pm**

The Sybian wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:11 pm
Square Rob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:06 pm We talked about that and have considered it. We do have a garage space at my MiL’s we could use. But for me there’s so much uncertainty around everything Tesla I’d rather just take the hit and be done with it.
You can store it in my garage. I’ll make sure to exercise the gaskets every week.

If I had a garage, I would seriously make the same offer. I'm "storing" my son's car while he's in Germany by parking it at the cabin and letting the snow bury it until spring. I can't imagine that would be a good thing to do to a near-new Tesla.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2022 2:16 pm**

mister d wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:00 pm
wlu_lax6 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:11 pm… and a new passenger seat cushion in the last year.
Go on …

The sensor for passenger air bag (i.e. turn it on when someone sits there) went bad. Also would trigger the passenger not wearing a belt when no passenger was there. That was fun to deal with. Don't know if it just broke or did my Nalgene bottle lid not being on tight leaking one time do it.

But that replacement part is only sold as the full seat cushion.

Posted: **Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:31 am**

Count me in the group of folks who long fantasized about buying a Tesla but absolutely wouldn't buy one now. It may be petty, but I'd be embarrassed, even if I bought one used so didn't send money directly to Tesla/Musk.

It's true that the company has been way overvalued for a while, but that doesn't explain or excuse the drop. It's all due to Musk's behavior. I guess that's the risk of making your CEO a celebrity. I couldn't tell you the name of the CEO of any other car company.

I've mentioned that there's an electric car channel in my work's Slack. It used to be very active and about 95% about Teslas and how much everyone loves theirs. Over the last year or so, the posts have slowed waaaay down and are mostly about solar panels on homes now.

It really is shocking how much damage one guy can do to a brand. Did he really not understand who had been buying Teslas? Does he think the F-150 and Hummer crowd are now going to all want Teslas? What a fucking idiot.

Posted: **Sat Dec 17, 2022 6:37 pm**

He really should've made his Cyber Truck look closer to an F-150 than what it looks like now.

Posted: **Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:46 pm**

The Tesla owners I know think Tesla is in a strong enough spot to survive Musk, and he'll eventually be removed from the company (I heard this before he bought Twitter, so maybe it's a bit different now). Tesla has such a strong advantage over other EV companies with their charging station infastructure, which made the owners I know believe the company will have a huge advantage until technology improves so much that those charging stations don't become as important. So hold onto that car.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:07 pm**

Sure seems like losing 74% of your value in one year should signal some referendum on the CEO.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:25 pm**

Talked my parents out of going through with their deposit on a model Y, despite all the deals Tesla was offering them to accept delivery before the end of 2022.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:15 pm**

Been researching cars. Want to go electric but don't want to pay the luxury car premium. Wlu_lax_mrs test drove the Chevy Bolt yesterday. Really liked it. Found 1 pedal driving pretty natural once she got used to it. Funny that that the only difference between the EV and EUV is 4 inches of trunk space (and the styling)....and ~8K price. However, I am having a hard time even considering the $5K "market adjustment fee". Costco has "special pricing sheet" for them...be interested what that does.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:16 pm**

wlu_lax6 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:15 pm Been researching cars. Want to go electric but don't want to pay the luxury car premium. Wlu_lax_mrs test drove the Chevy Bolt yesterday. Really liked it. Found 1 pedal driving pretty natural once she got used to it. Funny that that the only difference between the EV and EUV is 4 inches of trunk space (and the styling)....and ~8K price. However, I am having a hard time even considering the $5K "market adjustment fee". Costco has "special pricing sheet" for them...be interested what that does.

Wait....EVs only have one pedal?

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:18 pm**

A_B wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:16 pm
wlu_lax6 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:15 pm Been researching cars. Want to go electric but don't want to pay the luxury car premium. Wlu_lax_mrs test drove the Chevy Bolt yesterday. Really liked it. Found 1 pedal driving pretty natural once she got used to it. Funny that that the only difference between the EV and EUV is 4 inches of trunk space (and the styling)....and ~8K price. However, I am having a hard time even considering the $5K "market adjustment fee". Costco has "special pricing sheet" for them...be interested what that does.
Wait....EVs only have one pedal?

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:20 pm**

A_B wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:16 pm
wlu_lax6 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:15 pm Been researching cars. Want to go electric but don't want to pay the luxury car premium. Wlu_lax_mrs test drove the Chevy Bolt yesterday. Really liked it. Found 1 pedal driving pretty natural once she got used to it. Funny that that the only difference between the EV and EUV is 4 inches of trunk space (and the styling)....and ~8K price. However, I am having a hard time even considering the $5K "market adjustment fee". Costco has "special pricing sheet" for them...be interested what that does.
Wait....EVs only have one pedal?

Nah, it's like a golf cart though. No coasting. No brake while waiting at a stop light. Takes some getting used to.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:30 pm**

I see now. Still have a brake for override if needed. Learned something!

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:59 pm**

A_B wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:30 pm I see now. Still have a brake for override if needed. Learned something!

Yep, same two pedals as an automatic ICE car, but way less manual use of the one on the left.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:57 am**

Buying an electric car? You can get a $7,500 tax credit, but it won't be easy

Gotta love how everything is made so difficult all the time for real reason.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:04 pm**

Johnnie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:57 am Buying an electric car? You can get a $7,500 tax credit, but it won't be easy

Gotta love how everything is made so difficult all the time for real reason.

Well, there’s reasons. In addition to promoting EV sales, they’re also trying to promote a transition of US manufacturing to EV cars and batteries. And avoid giving even more tax breaks to the rich.

Then you add in the various powerful lobbies for the extra weird stuff.

The tax break is good for ten years. So theoretically, the tax break will lead to more U.S. battery and EV manufacturing. Then it’ll be more useful.

I’m curious whether there’s enough EV supply right now to even absorb a major increase in demand. Two years ago we wanted a plug-in hybrid Rav-4 and couldn’t get one.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:59 pm**

I've heard from a few folks currently shopping for EVs that dealerships are simply tacking on $7,500 to the price of the car. So it's become an incentive to the dealer, not the consumer. It's some bullshit.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:37 pm**

Shirley wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:59 pm I've heard from a few folks currently shopping for EVs that dealerships are simply tacking on $7,500 to the price of the car. So it's become an incentive to the dealer, not the consumer. It's some bullshit.

Oh, that's fucked. I think I've even read things online where the dealership just brazenly tacks on a 'dealer premium' amount to a sale because of the increase in demand.

And probably the reason why Ford wants to follow the Tesla model of ordering direct from the manufacturer and cutting out dealerships.

Fun sidenote: Ford's CEO is Chris Farley's cousin Jim. I wonder if he got a great deal on brakepads.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:18 pm**

Yeah, this seems to confirm that demand is still way ahead of supply right now.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2023 9:22 pm**

Johnnie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:37 pm
Shirley wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:59 pm I've heard from a few folks currently shopping for EVs that dealerships are simply tacking on $7,500 to the price of the car. So it's become an incentive to the dealer, not the consumer. It's some bullshit.
Oh, that's fucked. I think I've even read things online where the dealership just brazenly tacks on a 'dealer premium' amount to a sale because of the increase in demand.

And probably the reason why Ford wants to follow the Tesla model of ordering direct from the manufacturer and cutting out dealerships.

Fun sidenote: Ford's CEO is Chris Farley's cousin Jim. I wonder if he got a great deal on brakepads.

That shots been happening for years. Dealer rebates and incentives are just shut you have to pay it seems. I never felt like I got a great deal on any vehicle ever. I just go in with a payment amount I will live with and go from there. But those fuckers are awful with that too. My first financing offer for my truck was like 900 dollars a month and they said “oh this is just for approval” and I refused to sign it until the number matched my spreadsheet. But sadly most people don’t know how to do that so they get fucked. They gave up on me and moved inventory, made their money and went to someone else to pad the bottom line.

Posted: **Mon Jan 09, 2023 11:36 am**

From The Atlantic:

Electric Vehicles Are Bringing Out the Worst in Us

If you don't have free reads:

https://archive.is/k9czo

Maaaaaan, I just want to drive something that isn't bad for the environment!.

Posted: **Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:04 pm**

Johnnie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 09, 2023 11:36 am From The Atlantic:

Electric Vehicles Are Bringing Out the Worst in Us

If you don't have free reads:

https://archive.is/k9czo

Maaaaaan, I just want to drive something that isn't bad for the environment!.

Ride a boke or public transportation.

The Swamp

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