Game of Thrones....

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Johnny Carwash
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by Johnny Carwash »

tennbengal wrote:As for the Shireen killing not being in the books, supposedly GRRM told the showrunners it was coming, so they supposedly are in-line with what has yet to be published (although it will go down differently as Shireen is at the wall in the books and not on her way to Winterfell).
My thinking is that even if it is going to happen in the books, the circumstances of the way they presented it on the show are different enough that it radically changes the meaning. Specifically, I have a hard time believing it was GRRM's intention for Stannis to directly order it himself if he's been built up as a (relative) good guy.

I've only read the books in bits and pieces, but the way things have diverged in the past year have dented my confidence in the showrunners, and it frequently seems like they're mixing shit up for its own sake without much regard for the long-term plan. I'll probably keep watching the show until the end, but I'm moving toward the point where the books (if they're ever actually finished) will stand alone as the true canon.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by That French Guy »

For fuck’s sake, when will someone finally realize that 10-foot-long spears are shitty weapons when dealing with urban warfare ?

And Shireen’s burning is probably the worst I ve ever felt watching the show, which is really something.
Another great episode though.

Looks like Ramsay could be à big asset after all.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by Johnnie »

Fuck Stannis. That was horrible. And where are the feminazis after that? A rape is bad, but a murder like that was nutso.

I would think that that dragon was much bigger, breathed flames that were much larger, and had skin that dumb spears would bounce off of. I guess dragons are meh in this world.

And now I cannot get Danaerys as Atreyu out of my head.

Dorne is still dumb, btw. What a waste of a plot point. I bet Jamie arrives in time to see Cersei get shamed.

Anyone see that Arya was able to lie? Or rather, was allowed to? Dude knows something is up.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by joeyclams »

Johnnie wrote:Fuck Stannis. That was horrible. And where are the feminazis after that? A rape is bad, but a murder like that was nutso.

I would think that that dragon was much bigger, breathed flames that were much larger, and had skin that dumb spears would bounce off of. I guess dragons are meh in this world.

And now I cannot get Danaerys as Atreyu out of my head.

Dorne is still dumb, btw. What a waste of a plot point. I bet Jamie arrives in time to see Cersei get shamed.

Anyone see that Arya was able to lie? Or rather, was allowed to? Dude knows something is up.
Since Dragons live to be hundreds of years old, and the story has advanced about 7 or so years, i think the dragon is still growing and will develop more of the stereotypical dragon skin you're used to.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by Jerloma »

Fuck Stannis. That was horrible. And where are the feminazis after that? A rape is bad, but a murder like that was nutso.
Like three quarters of the country belongs to a cult based on the blood sacrifice of a child. Most people are in no position to condemn it.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by A_B »

He got shed of the one guy he knew would stop it.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by rass »

Johnny Carwash wrote:
tennbengal wrote:As for the Shireen killing not being in the books, supposedly GRRM told the showrunners it was coming, so they supposedly are in-line with what has yet to be published (although it will go down differently as Shireen is at the wall in the books and not on her way to Winterfell).
My thinking is that even if it is going to happen in the books, the circumstances of the way they presented it on the show are different enough that it radically changes the meaning. Specifically, I have a hard time believing it was GRRM's intention for Stannis to directly order it himself if he's been built up as a (relative) good guy.
Sort of interesting discussion on the after show reveal that GRRM told them about Shireen's fate.

Includes definite spoilers for book 5, and likely Sunday's episode.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by Nonlinear FC »

As a non-book reader, I just didn't see it as such a leap that Stannis would do what he did. They had been teeing this up for weeks -- especially in the context of how the books (apparently) and the show (definitely) use foreshadowing to set up the audience for something fairly shocking in coming pages/scenes.

What I don't understand is why burning her was optimal, as opposed to leeching her blood. Can anyone more knowledgeable explain that? All I read is how outraged people are, including the reviewers/recappers... And I don't want to get into another debate, but for fuck's sake... This is what this show is, why is everyone getting all faux internet outrage this season.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by A_B »

He's completely trusting the Red Woman. Even though other than the smoke baby, everything she has foretold has been coincidental.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by Nonlinear FC »

AB_skin_test wrote:He's completely trusting the Red Woman. Even though other than the smoke baby, everything she has foretold has been coincidental.

But I guess I'm being a geek, but she did do some weird smoke/vagina thing, so... Shit, I don't really even know how to ask it, since I don't think they've really talked about the "mechanics" of how that went down.

I guess it just seems a little too vague, even for black magic, as to why Dark Vagina Sorceress is even making the ask.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by rass »

AB_skin_test wrote:He's completely trusting the Red Woman. Even though other than the smoke baby, everything she has foretold has been coincidental.
I took it as less than coincidental in the books, as Stannis gave her three names and all three died shortly after. In the show, Balon Greyjoy is still alive for some reason (if you're going to ignore that entire subplot, why not just kill him a couple of seasons ago?), but his death was the one really happenstance-ish one of the three.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by Nonlinear FC »

This has been bugging me so much, I just went and read up on Melisandre and have a better handle on why the Shireen thing bothered me. Here goes:

I think in an effort to not go too deeply into the mystical aspect of the books, the TV show is burying some fundamental aspects of the "reality" of that world. Davos sneaks her under the castle/stronghold because of his knowledge as a smuggler, and part of that knowledge is that the place is protected from magic. Also, in the books she produces two vagina smoke monsters.

I know the show HAS to condense a lot of stuff. And I realize there are dragons and fucking ice zombies. But I really think the show is going too far to in "keeping it real."

If you've read the books, this undercurrent is just something you inherently accept. If you're like me, the mystical stuff is really really limited... It's just not discussed by anyone, or if it is, you have to really be paying attention (or geek out like I did) to pick up on it.

I'm not (really) complaining, just something that has been gnawing at me.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by Johnnie »

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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by tennbengal »

Oh the screams that will be screamed.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by A_B »

Deservedly so. It's fucking stupid.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by tennbengal »

End of book 5 still makes me mad. Mad all over again.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by DaveInSeattle »

tennbengal wrote:End of book 5 still makes me mad. Mad all over again.
Books 4 & 5 were definitely hate-reads...
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by rass »

tennbengal wrote:End of book 5 still makes me mad. Mad all over again.
I figured you of anyone would have been happy with the end of last night's episode. What possible reason could there be for Melisandre, poor disillusioned Melisandre who doesn't understand how Stannis failed to become her Azor Ahai, to come wandering back to the Wall? Mm? Need further convincing? Recall that in another deviation from the book, she met up with Thoros on the show, and in a scene ready made for a previously on GoT segment he was more than happy to tell her about resurrecting Beric Dondarrion.

A_B wrote:It's fucking stupid.
First the positive:
-Cersei's walk of shame was very well done, though I couldn't help but feel more for the actress than the character. Sort of took me out of the moment.
-Zombie Mountain. Nice. Am I off or did the books never 100% confirm that was who/what Qyburn was working on?
-Jamie's dad moment. All 10 seconds or so of it.
-Jon and Sam's quiet conversation, including the birds and bees talk.
-Arya's revenge and punishment.

The meh:
-Dany back with the Dothraki. I know it happened in the book, but I wasn't too enthused about it then, either.
-I guess Mereen is probably better off with Tyrion in charge than with Selmy.
-Brienne avenging Renly.

The "this just didn't work because they cut too much stuff out":
-Theon and Sansa. I can almost give them a break, because I have no idea how you bring 20 foot deep snow drifts to life on TV.
-Avoiding book spoilers, but Varys.
-Jon's death. As awesome as the Hardhome was (and it was really awesome), it's a problem here because there should be a dozen (more?) Black Brothers who saw what went down and who can tell everyone else that Jon made the right move. Instead we see Jon tell Sam, and that's it. At least give us another scene in the set/room they used for the election, where they try and fail to convince everyone else. Having Olly involved was no where near as powerful as having some of Jon's friends involved, as was the case in the book.

The bad:
-Stannis' defeat. I think I would have been OK with how it went down with the Boltons if not for the Shireen sacrifice last week. He could have rebuffed Melisandre and sent Shireen off with Davos. Or maybe if they had spent less time making Stannis likeable and killed her anyway? As it happened was fucking stupid.
-I think the Brienne plot could have worked if they had forced her to actually choose between saving Sansa and going after Stannis. But having her sit in a fucking hut for weeks looking out a window towards Winterfell (from where? who knows?) and leaving literally seconds before the candle goes up in the window? Fucking stupid. Brienne managing to find Stannis in the middle of that massacre without otherwise getting caught up in it herself. Fucking stupid.
-Dorne. They turned Doran Martell into a weak little dude in a wheelchair. And Bronn knows the Sand Snakes know poison, and knows they have antidotes, so why not turn the boat around? Maybe they were sparing us, but they didn't make Myrcella's reaction as graphic as Joffrey's so maybe there was time. Fucking stupid.
-Where the fuck was Ghost? GRRM at least made sure to have an excuse to remove him from the scene. It's made worse by the fact that he showed up to save Sam and Gilly a couple of episodes ago. Fucking stupid.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by tennbengal »

Rass, hope you are right - for the books, anyway.

As for the show, I don't trust the showrunners at this point, and they are all making "dead is dead" noises (actors, showrunners, etc.). I am hoping/assuming that is all a part of the feint, but how long can they keep it secret if they are indeed bringing him back?
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by A_B »

The long trickle/pool of Kings Blood that lingered as the show went to black means something of course, what with the Red Witch back at Castle Black. GFD the Night's watch is a mutinous bunch.

Not too thrilled about the season as a whole.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by rass »

The internet seems pretty convinced that Brienne, for some reason, spared Stannis. I guess under the "pics or GTFO" rule?
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by A_B »

rass wrote:The internet seems pretty convinced that Brienne, for some reason, spared Stannis. I guess under the "pics or GTFO" rule?

Same thing happened with the Hound, but I don't buy it.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by rass »

A_B wrote:
rass wrote:The internet seems pretty convinced that Brienne, for some reason, spared Stannis. I guess under the "pics or GTFO" rule?

Same thing happened with the Hound, but I don't buy it.
Well, some people are still convinced Syrio Forel lived.

Weren't there further hints that the Hound maybe survived in the books? Though again in a sub-plot abandoned by the show.

Kit Harrington did an interview with EW in which he insisted he is "dead" and "not coming back next season". I guess he could die, be resurrected and come back in season 7? Or just be lying? For as much as I've messed with TB, I think I would have pretty big issues with the series if he does really turn out to be capital D Dead.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by tennbengal »

rass wrote:
A_B wrote:
rass wrote:The internet seems pretty convinced that Brienne, for some reason, spared Stannis. I guess under the "pics or GTFO" rule?

Same thing happened with the Hound, but I don't buy it.
Well, some people are still convinced Syrio Forel lived.

Weren't there further hints that the Hound maybe survived in the books? Though again in a sub-plot abandoned by the show.

Kit Harrington did an interview with EW in which he insisted he is "dead" and "not coming back next season". I guess he could die, be resurrected and come back in season 7? Or just be lying? For as much as I've messed with TB, I think I would have pretty big issues with the series if he does really turn out to be capital D Dead.
Yup. And I don't really trust Martin or the showrunners on this point at this juncture.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by Johnny Carwash »

I don't completely buy the EW interview; that whole series of articles was basically them doing PR for the show in exchange for exclusive access, so it could just be part of a smoke screen.

Melisandre showing up at Castle Black and for the first time looking shaken and remorseful seems like heavy foreshadowing that she'll try to bring Jon back to life, possibly at the cost of her own.

I'm 99% sure Stannis is actually dead, even if we didn't see it on-screen. With what went down in the last two episodes his story had run its course.

I don't know what the hell they were doing with the Dorne plot. All that time burnt on frivolous shit, and the end result is a group of characters we were supposed to like doing one of the most unambiguously evil things on the show. Killing Myrcella is such a irrational act that would be begging for disaster for Dorne if King Landing wasn't in disarray (which they wouldn't have known about), though maybe that's the point.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by Jerloma »

Does John die and come back in the books?
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by A_B »

Jerloma wrote:Does John die and come back in the books?
God don't ask this question. PLease god.

(Go read the other thread. Tennbengal will say hello.)
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by rass »

Jerloma wrote:Does John die and come back in the books?
The last you saw of him last night is the last we saw of him in the books.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by tennbengal »

Greenwald seems to have survived:

http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospect ... -10-recap/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by Johnny Carwash »

Couple other thoughts:

It's kind of getting lost amid everything else that went down, but the Walk of Shame was really well done and properly harrowing. Cersei's still a bad person, but they really showed the horrors of the mob mentality. (btw, that was apparently done with a body double and Lena Headey's face CGI'd in. Had no idea that could be pulled off convincingly.)

Teasing Benjen in the "Previously on..." part and then ending up using it as a ruse for Jon's assassination was such an epic troll that I'm not even mad.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by rass »

Johnny Carwash wrote:Teasing Benjen in the "Previously on..." part and then ending up using it as a ruse for Jon's assassination was such an epic troll that I'm not even mad.
Agreed.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by Rush2112 »

So whats the consensus of what season 6 will be? I know they've cut some corners on other parts of the books, so is season 6 a "filler" that hashes out other aspects, does a lot Bran / Daenerys stuff and allows GRRM to actually publish the next book, or does the show go off into uncharted territory?
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by A_B »

So...been reading way too many recaps and theories. BUT...given that the night's watch has taken to burning corpses to prevent white walkeriness, it makes some sense that they might put Jon on a pyre. That said, if R+L=J is true then he is a targaryean and might he have life breathed into him from the fire with or without help from Melisandre?
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by A_B »

And one nit...where was Margaery last night?
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by Nonlinear FC »

A_B wrote:And one nit...where was Margaery last night?
There's a lot of stuff about King's Landing that is left hanging... Aside from Tommen, what about Kevan and Momma Tyrelle... But I'll chalk that up to stuff that just wouldn't fit last night... Too much going on...

=-=-=-=

I'll also say this: I have read numerous times that the showrunners want this show to end with season 7. I REALLY hope they stick to that. If I hadn't know that, this season might've been enough for me to just take a break and see if it was going anywhere. The show is exhausting...

Dany looks like she's finally moving into a position to head overseas... Now she's back to wandering the wilderness... The Starks start out as the family to root for, and now they are less yet another key player (I know, not really?) and are even more scattered and stretched out... Let alone, the two people that seem to actually understand the danger (J Snow and Stannis) are now dead (?)

It's just getting difficult to stick with this and with HBO and GRRM saying they don't necessarily agree with the showrunners... I'm just fatigued at this point.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by joeyclams »

A_B wrote:And one nit...where was Margaery last night?
That is the one storyline that was changed that I don't like. Cersi was originally made to do the walk of shame because she told stories about Margaery that were proven false, not that she committed adultery and incest and maybe killed the King. And by not going with this storyline, they had to leave Margaery in the cells instead of being free and watching Cersi do the walk of shame. Not a fan of the change.

As for Stannis living, why on Earth would Brienne spare him? In her eyes, all the bad things that have happened to her and those she's sworn to protect, are his fault. No way she doesn't off him. He's D.E.D. Dead.

And Dany being in Dothraki land is the one thing that actually makes sense. She needs an army to go to Westeros and get her throne back and that looked like one huge army that was riding around her. How she gets them to follow her is something I'd like to see play out. But that's where that plotline is headed. Can't be anything else. Unless Jon dies, Dany is sent to the city of the widows described way back in Book 1 and some character we've never seen before takes over Westeros and beats the White Walkers. Can't see that happening.
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by DaveInSeattle »

stolen from twitter...not posting for some reason, so click the link...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHl4HShVAAA40U6.jpg
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by Jerloma »

This is fantastic.

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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by TT2.0 »

Jerloma wrote:This is fantastic.

i cracked up at

"shadow demon?!?"

what? its a fun story
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Re: Game of Thrones....

Post by Johnnie »

New trailer released today:

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