The Swamp

Because Sosa wasn’t nearly the hitter Manny was regardless of home run totals. Dave Kingman had 100+ more than dozens of better hitters from his era.

mister d wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:41 pm Because Sosa wasn’t nearly the hitter Manny was regardless of home run totals. Dave Kingman had 100+ more than dozens of better hitters from his era.

Sosa also wasn’t nearly the hitter as Albert Pujols. That argument is irrelevant as to why he’s shining a light on the authenticity of the 609 home runs Sosa hit over his 18 year career.

There’s a reason why the list of similar batters on Sosa’s bb-ref page is made up entirely of HOFers, with the exception of Gary Sheffield (who by the way Rosecrans’ voted for on his ballot).

It’s inconsistent, is my point.

It’s only inconsistent if you frame the entire debate around home run total. You could just as easily say “his OBP was under .350 so he’s out” or whatever.

I think Sosa over Palmeiro because one aspect of the Hall of Fame is the fame part.

Hitting 600 homers is a bigger deal than hitting 569 (over 2000+ additional PAs). And hitting 60 homers three times is a bigger deal than never hitting 50 even if Palmeiro was a slightly better hitter overall.

Sosa was such a big deal that they held a parade for him in fucking New York. So if PED use is not a deal-breaker, I think Sosa would qualify.

(Unless corking is a deal-breaker of course.)

Edit: To be clear, I'm not putting Sosa ahead of Manny Ramirez. He qualifies too as far as I'm concerned.

If a player who was 5th all time in total home runs at the time of his retirement isn’t a lock, then just shut the HOF down.

Ok, but back to Palmeiro again why not 9th too?

Well, you have to draw the line somewhere.

j/k


TBH, it makes sense to me for the HOF to convene a committee to just parse through the steroids era and then just batch upload the qualified into Cooperstown. Remove the responsibility from the BBWAA entirely. Temporarily.

Then once you have the dozen or so guys in the Hall who clearly have the stink of PEDs on them, let the BBWAA resume activities.

Just tell the whole story.

I totally agree with that (and the use of batch upload), I just don’t think Sosa is worthy. It’s a good one dimension to have, but it was one dimension.

mister d wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:04 pm I totally agree with that (and the use of batch upload), I just don’t think Sosa is worthy. It’s a good one dimension to have, but it was one dimension.

It’s not the Hall of Greatness from All Angles though.

Dude was legit famous for hitting home runs, and finished 5th all time.

Hey, remember when I argued for Tommy John in the HoF? Nevermind that.

Should the surgery be renamed?

Made the mistake of looking at Curt Schilling's recent tweets. He's not helping himself.

Edit: Let's go with David Wells Surgery https://www.si.com/mlb/2014/03/07/best- ... frank-jobe

It's National AB Gets Irrationally Mad Day, guys!

EdRomero wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:36 am Should the surgery be renamed?

Made the mistake of looking at Curt Schilling's recent tweets. He's not helping himself.

Edit: Let's go with David Wells Surgery https://www.si.com/mlb/2014/03/07/best- ... frank-jobe

It really should have been Frank Jobe surgery, right?

A_B wrote: ↑Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:15 pm It's National AB Gets Irrationally Mad Day, guys!

It won't be irrational this time. This is just the sourest HOF day since 2013.

I wish I weren't blocked so I could send Schilling a direct LOL.

So when does the Veterans' Committee meet and we get like Gary Gaetti in the hall?

I just called him a snowflake, racist and seditionist so I might be right behind you. Still felt good though.

I wish I could remember what happened. In great news on the other side, Rolen and Andruw both had really big jumps with Rolen maybe hitting that magic downhill period like Walker and Raines eventually did.

It gets better.

Rex wrote: ↑Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:15 pm

A_B wrote: ↑Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:15 pm It's National AB Gets Irrationally Mad Day, guys!

It won't be irrational this time. This is just the sourest HOF day since 2013.

I didn't even get mad. But I reiterate, fuck these writers that looked the other way until they couldn't any longer.

I don't know who the right moralist who covered the 90s is, but it would be very interesting to know if he thinks he should be ineligible from writing awards because of his complicity/unawareness.

BBWAA urges HOF to keep schilling on the ballot. I hope as a troll job to see his numbers drop to 0%. God knows they're capable of trolling.

I will be furious when its "You learned your lesson (he will have remain unchanged) now we did right by you and also here's your friend Big Papi too!"

At some point, probably in this thread, I've noted that you should just put all the steroid cheaters (real and presumed) in or leave all of the era out. And now next year with Arod and Papi on the ballot, they could actually put the whole gang in (well, almost) and then all the BBWAA can write innumerable articles and books about "The Class of '22". The wordplay alone will inspire vomit-inducing tweets.

The motherfucking long con.

Except they'll put Ortiz in without any real consideration to his pretty solid PED ties and also "his actual baseball stats".

OK. I'm off the Barry Bonds train now guys. Turns out if he had aged just normally, he'd only be one of the top 10 baseball players of all time instead of Top 2. Shame Stan Musial never made it in or was never looked at as one of the greatest ballplayers of all time, otherwise Bonds would have a better case. If only it didn't take 95% of the votes to get in or Musial would have been a first ballot lock. INstead, he never again appeared on the ballot.

I’ve never heard that intentional walk stat before but that’s utterly absurd.

Absolutely: Bonds, Clemens, Rodriguez
Also Yes: Jones, Ramirez, Rolen, Sheffield


Others Alphabetically:

Abreu: I'd probably strategically vote for Abreu to keep him on the ballot while I think about it more. He's a really rough eye test guy because I admit I never thought I was watching a HoFer when he was playing, but the 50,000 foot view of his career says there's a strong argument to be made. 29th offensive WAR since 1989 and that's with negatives in baserunning and defense.
(I used since 1989 because that's when Vizquel debuted and just eyeballing I'm pretty certain that's the earliest of anyone eligible.)

Buehrle: Nope, although I'm kind of surprised he's not getting more support because he just seems like the type who would. Is there much of a difference between him and Jack Morris?

Helton: I don't see it. At all. I know the rules about long-term Coors players and their home/road splits, but still, he's a 18.5 HR per 600 PA player on the road. Inversely, what if Olerud played half his career like he did and the other half at Coors? Maybe he suffers from not having the control amounts Larry Walker did or maybe he's not at Larry Walker's level and we should move on.

Hudson: Similar to Buehrle. Great career, comfortable no relative to comps.

Kent: Another one I just don't get. Easy no. But also 38th in WAR since 1989. Interesting, given ...

Ortiz: 50th in offensive fWAR since 1989. One, perhaps one like me, would suggest that he could be 30th or 50th or 100th and "but what about his playoff performances" would be considered sufficient to make up the gap. There are eligible players ahead of him who I think should be in (Edmonds, Lofton) and more than I don't think are quite there despite great careers. More interesting to me, I can't find anyone after him I think should be in. Perhaps double-interestingly, he's 21st in that same time frame in career PAs. 50th in WAR, 21st in PAs, dead lock HoF? Edgar was a far better hitter and I'm still not sure where I landed on him after going back and forth a while because its so hard to account for "not playing the field" versus simply playing it poorly.

Pettitte: 9th in IP since 1990, 11th in WAR and every guy ahead of him should be in if judged on performance alone. BUT ... there are several guys directly behind him already retired or soon retired who I'd pick over Pettitte without hesitation (Sabathia, Scherzer, Halladay, Greinke). Does that mean Pettitte should be in or that if you shave the last 400 IP + ~6 WAR off the end of his career, he'd be landing right where he feels like he should at/below the cutline? He'd be a strategic vote to keep on for more thought.

Schilling,: Fuck Curt. 12th in IP, 6th in WAR. Glad to see voters (net -15 on revealed ballots) are respecting his wish to not be considered in his final year. I know he'll eventually get in with the veterans committee, but this is fun.

Sosa: More like No-sa. Its impossible to determine what percentage of a guy's career is due to PEDs, yet I'm comfortable saying Sosa's made a difference. He's also 28th on the list, only 2 WAR behind Sheffield, but at barely half his offensive total. No player is more fucked by advance stats' inability to play the shoulda-been-a-DH game more than Sheffield.

Vizquel: Joke candidate even before everything came out about what a terrible person he is.

Wagner: Great reliever but I'm pretty sure I've comfortably decided on Mariano being the only post-Eckersley closer who should be in.


Love,
Mister D

The fact that Bonds is tracking about the same as Ortiz gives me hope. I think he and Clemens will squeak in. But I reserve the anger when I am wrong.

I saw that Klaw dropped Clemens on the character clause, but selective application is always tough sledding. I don't think he's wrong, but I think I'd be more comfortable voting for the player then hoping for a mass cleanup later on.

I'm amazed at the ease with which I fall into the eye test now that these guys are ones I've seen for their entire careers.

Oh yeah, same. I was pleasantly surprised Ortiz's basic numbers supported the conclusion I was going to work to reach either way.

Meanwhile, and you won't believe this, I don't think you can get much higher on the "of Fame" part than Ortiz and he was also a great hitter! Who the hell would go the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, see his plaque and go "nah, this is wrong"?

Oh, if we want to get literal lets just throw open up the doors, right?



Didn't think so.

Why that looks like a young David ORtiz!

Guess who