The Swamp

Enoch, yes, dispassionate. I do talk dumb words. And yes my only point is what got a no payroll team here maybe cost them game 6. The idea it was predictable because of ace-ness or “dealing” ignores why this was Tampa and not NYY playing tonight.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:51 pm I think mister d is saying that they had planned for Snell to pitch to 18 batters at most, period.

Thanks. Snell was shaking his head in disbelief though when Cash came out.

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:58 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:51 pm I think mister d is saying that they had planned for Snell to pitch to 18 batters at most, period.

Thanks. Snell was shaking his head in disbelief though when Cash came out.

He probably knew but was maybe hoping different. Imagine if Barnes hadn't singled, talking heads would explode.

mister d wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:57 pm Enoch, yes, dispassionate. I do talk dumb words. And yes my only point is what got a no payroll team here maybe cost them game 6. The idea it was predictable because of ace-ness or “dealing” ignores why this was Tampa and not NYY playing tonight.

This is what y'all rooted for in other words

Mlb is lucky there is no game tomorrow.

mister d wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:57 pm Enoch, yes, dispassionate. I do talk dumb words. And yes my only point is what got a no payroll team here maybe cost them game 6. The idea it was predictable because of ace-ness or “dealing” ignores why this was Tampa and not NYY playing tonight.

Understood, except the moment they took him out of the game, the Dodgers were given a reprieve which they took full advantage of. The Yankees lost to the Rays for a number of reasons, some of which had to do with a bizarre PH scenario where they were forced to use Gary Sanchez as a defensive replacement.

At any rate, if that’s the case, then good. Dispassionate decision-making that ignores in-game realities has its place, but to exercise it then and there, to me, made little sense.

Is Manfred drunk right now? He’s slurring.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:00 pm

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:58 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:51 pm I think mister d is saying that they had planned for Snell to pitch to 18 batters at most, period.

Thanks. Snell was shaking his head in disbelief though when Cash came out.

He probably knew but was maybe hoping different. Imagine if Barnes hadn't singled, talking heads would explode.

I’m guessing they’ll explode regardless.

L-Jam3 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:04 pm Is Manfred drunk right now? He’s slurring.

“Present by Chevrolet”

Jesus, Corey.

Also do we need to worry about Manfred?

He probably has Covid. Brain fog.

Justin Turner invited to White House immediately

Love Bellinger.

I think you're seeing why the NFL is just going to stop testing altogether as we get closer to the end.

a couple more tweets.

Not letting Mookie or Seager seeing you a 3rd time sounds like a set plan. If Cash did that on the cuff after striking them both out twice then hes dumber than I thought.

Morris and Kiermaier are both proven dumb assholes.

mister d wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:15 pm And just to be clear, this is great. Fuck Tampa and I hope Mookie wins every series the Yankees don’t for the next decade. But Cash wasn’t wrong, this is just people loving the narrative over the analytics.

All the old-time baseball dudes who hate analytics are pounding it hard tonight on twitter

this got a big LOL from me


Sad (and a little scared) that baseball season is over, but really happy I won't hear Smoltz for many many months. That guy hasn't shut up since summer.

(wife being a Dodgers fan and all, we must have watched ~70 LAD games this year. full bottle of Prosecco downed last night...and...i'm hungover. Gave our 15yr old her first taste of the bubbly last night...she was horrified :D )

sancarlos wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:27 am All the old-time baseball dudes who hate analytics are pounding it hard tonight on twitter

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:08 am Morris and Kiermaier are both proven dumb assholes.

I know you like to hide behind numbers because you think that’s where the logic always resides, but when your ace is dealing, you ride the hot hand.

That is where a manager earns his pay. Last night, Kevin Cash shit himself, and he lost the clubhouse in doing it.

that's an all-timer screencap

I definitely don’t think that should be viewed as some kind of career-defining error by Cash. The results he’s gotten over the last 3 seasons have been ridiculous, given the budgetary and talent limitations, so clearly his “process” has merit. However, the Dodgers seemed to have a pretty good read on every Rays pitcher other than Snell, so I would’ve tried to get at least 6 full innings, and probably 7, out of him. But it might not have mattered because the Dodgers probably find a way to squeeze out 2 runs regardless. The gap in offensive talent between the teams was just too big. Rays scored only 8 runs total in the 4 games they lost.

To add to my point about Cash’s results, I know the shorter season length and extreme unbalanced schedule helped, but it’s ridiculous that he got a .667 winning percentage out of that roster to begin with.

And that’s with only getting 76 plate appearances from Arozarena (who performed at “only” an All-Star level in the regular season, as as opposed to the “2001 Barry Bonds” level he reached in the postseason).

Is anyone pointing out this almost perfectly mirrors G7 against Houston? It seems really rough to critique a process that is proven to work far more often than not.

Joe K wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:28 am To add to my point about Cash’s results, I know the shorter season length and extreme unbalanced schedule helped, but it’s ridiculous that he got a .667 winning percentage out of that roster to begin with.

And that’s with only getting 76 plate appearances from Arozarena (who performed at “only” an All-Star level in the regular season, as as opposed to the “2001 Barry Bonds” level he reached in the postseason).

This isn’t Kevin Cash’s team. He is a more of a figurehead pushing the preprogrammed buttons as defined by Erik Neander and his crew of analysts.

Mark Carig nailed it:

There is an arrogance about the way old school baseball people talk about how the old ways are better. In an Orwellian twist, that same arrogance is now present among those who treat the conclusions drawn from numbers as absolutes. This is the game’s new ruling class.

It's just the way the Rays do things. Like why does Choi sometimes hit 4th and sometimes hit 1st. The top 4 hitters are always changed, based on what?

This isn’t Kevin Cash’s team. He is a more of a figurehead pushing the preprogrammed buttons as defined by Erik Neander and his crew of analysts.

Mark Carig nailed it:

There is an arrogance about the way old school baseball people talk about how the old ways are better. In an Orwellian twist, that same arrogance is now present among those who treat the conclusions drawn from numbers as absolutes. This is the game’s new ruling class.

Ok, but regardless of whether you attribute responsibility to Cash or Neander, that team having a 58.9% win percentage since 2018 is very impressive given the miniscule payrolls. That’s my whole point and it’s strong evidence, over the course of nearly 400 games, that their approach has lot merit.

I already said that they should’ve left Snell in last night because the Dodgers had been hitting their bullpen guys a lot better than Snell. But that doesn’t mean the whole franchise philosophy is flawed.

rass wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:02 am

that's an all-timer screencap

It's a good thing all those players, coaches, and their loved ones all get to go in separate directions to different places and mix with people in the next few weeks.

Joe K wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:41 am

This isn’t Kevin Cash’s team. He is a more of a figurehead pushing the preprogrammed buttons as defined by Erik Neander and his crew of analysts.

Mark Carig nailed it:

There is an arrogance about the way old school baseball people talk about how the old ways are better. In an Orwellian twist, that same arrogance is now present among those who treat the conclusions drawn from numbers as absolutes. This is the game’s new ruling class.

Ok, but regardless of whether you attribute responsibility to Cash or Neander, that team having a 58.9% win percentage since 2018 is very impressive given the miniscule payrolls. That’s my whole point and it’s strong evidence, over the course of nearly 400 games, that their approach has lot merit.

I already said that they should’ve left Snell in last night because the Dodgers had been hitting their bullpen guys a lot better than Snell. But that doesn’t mean the whole franchise philosophy is flawed.

I didn’t say the whole franchise philosophy is flawed. Analytics is best used at maximizing value in a roster full of first contract guys and, “huh, it turns out that guy still had something left after all” types, finding diamonds in the rough, and encouraging forward thinking like how to get through a 162 game season when the backend of your rotation is a dumpster fire, or you need to protect your TOR innings. The ‘opener’ concept took hold in Tampa. I just think analytics can become misapplied, and hell yes did we see that happen last night.

It’s the dietician that promotes overall brain and body health that decides its time to perform open heart surgery. Yeah, some of those dietitians turn out to be fantastic heart surgeons, but sometimes they should stick to hocking supplements.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:14 am It's just the way the Rays do things. Like why does Choi sometimes hit 4th and sometimes hit 1st. The top 4 hitters are always changed, based on what?

Probably mostly the starting pitcher and the opposition's bullpen arms/rest/usage.

Breakdown

degenerasian wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:46 am Breakdown

The reason Snell gets better the 3rd time through the order vs the 2nd is because if he’s still in the game, chances are good he’s got his A stuff, and for a TOR guy (1 CYA), that can mean shutdown material. He had command of all four pitches and his 9 Ks through 4 IP were the most in a WS game since ‘63 Sandy Koufax.

What’s weird is Neander actually thought Cash had yanked Morton prematurely earlier in the series. So is that decision, to not let your SP, no matter how well he’s throwing, not a hard and fast measure the Rays organization holds itself to? Was it really on Cash?

Yes. I mean Snell allowed only 2 guys to reach base. He had recorded 16 outs out of 18 batters. Cash didn't even visit the mount to talk to Snell. It was an immediate move to the bullpen.

GREAT TIMING

Johnnie wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:25 am GREAT TIMING

Pretty good for a news dump, I suppose.

man - MLB just sticks Hinch and Cora in a corner for a year and poof! back again - no worries guys!

having (once) been a Red Sox fan for a long long time - and i'm sure this applies to every fanbase, not gonna be too naive here - i'm sure there's a lot of bending over backwards to justify it. Not to mention if this were, say, the Yankees there'd be all sorts of online haymakers thrown.


but yeah, the timing was/is pretty impressive :D