The Swamp

Mark 8:36

Joe K wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:27 pmLeBron himself has more money than he'll ever need, but he's also a high profile representative of a player's union whose members collectively could lose hundreds of millions in future earnings if China cut the cord entirely. Similarly, Steve Kerr coaches multiple players who currently have shoe deals with Chinese companies. Klay Thompson's deal with Anta is reportedly worth up to $80 million. Maybe Kerr should have just spoken up anyways, but he could have cost some of his guys a significant amount of money had he done so.

Perfect summary of why I’ll never be rich or anything approaching rich.

Well shit, I didn't know this was about money! Sure, this is all fine then!

Good photoshop.

Giff wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:02 am Well shit, I didn't know this was about money! Sure, this is all fine then!

It's almost like this issue isn't complicated at all!

Johnnie wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:21 am It's almost like this issue isn't complicated at all!

My point was that of you are part of a professional organization, which an NBA team is, it’s one thing to take a stance of conscience that costs yourself money — it’s another thing to cost others you work with. If you work for any type of professional services firm (law, advertising, consulting, etc.) that deals with controversial or political clients this could come up. No one would be mad at an attorney for turning down Rudy Giuliani as a client. But if he publicly badmouthed Rudy and got his law partner fired from the representation, that’s a much more significant step and one that many would not take. It’s not as simple for Kerr and LeBron ad you guys are making it.

Giff, James Harden sells tons and tons of sneakers in China and already voiced displeasure with Morey’s comments. Are you mad at Mike D’Antoni and PJ Tucker for not publicly calling Harden out or do you understand why they might not want to do that?

I don't know that anyone is taking issue with athletes aged 18 to Vince Carter who don't see themselves as the proper spokesmen for international human rights issues, just with the ones who are speaking up motivated by self-interested. LeBron isn't part of this story if he simply shuts the fuck up from the beginning.

He's explained it now. It's about money.

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:49 am I don't know that anyone is taking issue with athletes aged 18 to Vince Carter who don't see themselves as the proper spokesmen for international human rights issues, just with the ones who are speaking up motivated by self-interested. LeBron isn't part of this story if he simply shuts the fuck up from the beginning.

I think Lebron would have been roasted just as hard if, when he was asked about it, he said "no comment." The only thing that would have been seen as "right" is if he said some variant of "Fuck yeah, Hong Kong is getting a raw deal and China needs to chill," which was never going to happen after the flak Morey and SIlver had already caught. As the most recognizable athlete, he probably needed to say something, and it just so happened it was clumsy and mishandled. But I maintain it wouldn't have mattered.

Joe K wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:38 am

Johnnie wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:21 am It's almost like this issue isn't complicated at all!

My point was that of you are part of a professional organization, which an NBA team is, it’s one thing to take a stance of conscience that costs yourself money — it’s another thing to cost others you work with. If you work for any type of professional services firm (law, advertising, consulting, etc.) that deals with controversial or political clients this could come up. No one would be mad at an attorney for turning down Rudy Giuliani as a client. But if he publicly badmouthed Rudy and got his law partner fired from the representation, that’s a much more significant step and one that many would not take. It’s not as simple for Kerr and LeBron ad you guys are making it.

Giff, James Harden sells tons and tons of sneakers in China and already voiced displeasure with Morey’s comments. Are you mad at Mike D’Antoni and PJ Tucker for not publicly calling Harden out or do you understand why they might not want to do that?

I understand completely what you're saying. Hell, Max Kellerman said the other day on First Take that it's easy to take a position when you have nothing to lose.

My snark is really directed at all the shlubs who hide behind "this is a very difficult topic..." No one on this board is one of those. And the truth is if the shlub was just honest and said "Look, I have business dealings in China. I'm not going to piss them off. This isn't my fight or my place to make a comment because it affects my money" that would be something to hear.

But rich athletes love it both ways. They want to get paid and pretend they haven't sold out.

From a Dave Mcmenemin article (He was in China with the NBA):


"James, Anthony Davis, Kyle Kuzma and Rajon Rondo -- to name a few -- had appearances canceled. One Lakers player, sources told ESPN, had agreed to a $1 million endorsement deal with a Chinese company prior to the trip. When he arrived -- poof -- it was gone. A seven-figure payday went out the window."


Now, I'm leery of "sources told" but he's generally a respected writer, I suppose.

ETA: Reading more of the article, it looks like Lebron took on a real leadership role and urged caution and pushed back to Silver some, saying that the players shouldn't be the ones having to deal with this. I know I'm a stan, but still.

Giff, James Harden sells tons and tons of sneakers in China and already voiced displeasure with Morey’s comments. Are you mad at Mike D’Antoni and PJ Tucker for not publicly calling Harden out or do you understand why they might not want to do that?

I missed the part where I was mad at Frank Vogel and Anthony Davis for not saying anything about LeBron. But if you want me to say fuck Harden for apologizing on Morey's behalf, then "fuck Harden".

I'm annoyed at people who take every opportunity to rightfully criticize what is going on in our country, but are supposed to remain silent because China makes people a lot of cash. I'm not surprised by it at all. But it makes their opinions on the issues they're fighting for over here less valid. And it gives asshole right-wingers talking points about SJWs who are only that way if it doesn't effect their bottom line.

Harvey Weinstein made a lot of people a lot of money. Maybe a slap on the wrist and a full-time escort so he can still make people cash, but not do the rapey stuff?

Seriously, being so attached to a country who imprisons and executes political dissenters that you will attack someone else in your league because China makes you and your friends some money. And people here are fucking OK with that?

I don’t disagree with criticisms of LeBron’s comments. I just think it’s insane that he and Steve Kerr are getting more venom than the team owners and commissioners who centered the league’s entire growth strategy around China and by virtue of that put players in a tricky spot. Adam Silver’s remarks on Morey were much better than LeBron’s. But Silver is also magnitudes more responsible for this mess than LeBron or any other player or coach.

So Morey has already cost players money. People say Lebron is irresponsible but Morey is more so.

The Hong Kong issue is not new, it's just publicized now.
China is like this to everyone, Tibet for example.

Businesses and Sporting Leagues have made their bed with China years ago and they're ok with it. It makes no sense for them to support Hong Kong.

Giff wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:07 am Harvey Weinstein made a lot of people a lot of money. Maybe a slap on the wrist and a full-time escort so he can still make people cash, but not do the rapey stuff?

Seriously, being so attached to a country who imprisons and executes political dissenters that you will attack someone else in your league because China makes you and your friends some money. And people here are fucking OK with that?

Nobody knew about Weinstein's actions 20 years ago.

China has not changed in 70 years. The NBA knew this but still cashed in on Yao Ming succes in the 90s. It makes no sense to go back on that now. Morey would be fired if he worked for normal company with ties to China.

But its fucked up that endorsement quote is allowed as an offset. "Yes there are human rights violations" versus "fuck man that millionaire just lost another million" isn't in balance.

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:14 am But its fucked up that endorsement quote is allowed as an offset. "Yes there are human rights violations" versus "fuck man that millionaire just lost another million" isn't in balance.

I think a player losing a million is more substantial than an owner losing $40 million.

No disagreement, but also not something that should make anyone think twice about the owners' and players' reactions here.

Plantation owners made a whole lot of money off of slavery for many years too. Doesn't mean it didn't have to change.

Where's the line where the amount of money one makes is less important than where he's getting that money from? I mean, to us, bringing up slavery sounds like hyperbole, but probably not to the millions of people in China who've been murdered or imprisoned due to their political views or religion.

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:17 am No disagreement, but also not something that should make anyone think twice about the owners' and players' reactions here.

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:14 am But its fucked up that endorsement quote is allowed as an offset. "Yes there are human rights violations" versus "fuck man that millionaire just lost another million" isn't in balance.

I think you’d be hard pressed to find any international corporations that don’t make that tradeoff on a routine basis. And whether it’s in China, Latin America or the Middle East, the broad consensus of American politicians and businesses has been to value capitalism first with the assumption that human rights will eventually follow. Unfortunately there are plenty of countries where that hasn’t remotely been the case.

Right, and my house and everyone else's here are proof of the blind eyes we turn. There's a whole other level in going from "participate in the global economy" to self-serving defender and promoter of it.

It's about point of view. Hong Kong was returned to China in 97. So to most people, this is not an issue.
If one has been an employee of a business that's working with China then that's gravy. And if that spawned off some individual endorsements, that was even better. The Hong Kong protests today mean nothing because it meant nothing in 97.

Think of it like Star Wars. China is the Empire and the West is the Republic. If everyone is doing business with the Empire and Darth Vader, how are the Jedis going to succeed? This war has been lost for many years and can no longer be won.

Joe K wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:27 pm I think a lot of the reaction has missed that NBA owners and commissioners bear far more responsibility for tying so much of the sport's revenue to China than players and coaches do for keeping quiet. LeBron himself has more money than he'll ever need, but he's also a high profile representative of a player's union whose members collectively could lose hundreds of millions in future earnings if China cut the cord entirely. Similarly, Steve Kerr coaches multiple players who currently have shoe deals with Chinese companies. Klay Thompson's deal with Anta is reportedly worth up to $80 million. Maybe Kerr should have just spoken up anyways, but he could have cost some of his guys a significant amount of money had he done so.

Good points. But, it just kills me to see Trump and the right-wingers making political hay, here.

Carsen Edwards can shoot it.

https://www.celticsblog.com/2019/10/16/ ... eltics-nba

You've done your job as a second round pick when youre shooting it like an NBA coach has never seen before. Think he's safely made the team.

I’ve been a Lakers skeptic, but if they keep drawing up unstoppable plays like this, who’s beating them?

Feels like that has to be a callback to a Warriors practice somewhere along the way.

Zion’s going to miss some time with a knee injury. Sounds like the Pelicans are being especially cautious but that’s a bit of a bummer. He was absolutely tearing it up in preseason (23 ppg on 70% shooting), to the point where I was thinking they could compete for a playoff spot right away.

Nov. 27 against the Lakers wouldn't be a bad time for a debut

Some rookie I’ve never heard of goes for 40 in a preseason game and fucking Harden is still the leading scorer

I blame China.

Zion out 6-8 weeks. I almost say shut him down until the all star break

My 2019-20 season predictions:

MVP: Giannis (Curry will score a ton but the Warriors could struggle this year, especially on defense)

COY: Quin Snyder

ROY: Zion. He’ll miss 20-30 games right off the bat but will be significantly better than any other rookie when he plays.

DPOY: Embiid

Teams that will be better than expected: Raptors, Blazers, Spurs

Teams that will be worse than expected: Celtics, Nuggets, Lakers

Most fascinating team: Rockets. Hugely important year for the legacies of D’Antoni, Russ and Harden.

Finals: Bucks over Jazz.

I agree with the consensus that the East is between the Bucks and Sixers. Giannis’ career trajectory has been insane to date — he just keeps getting better and I can’t pick against him.

The West should again be crazy competitive. The Clippers *should* be the best team out West but I have a sneaky feeling they’ll be mortal due to injuries or Rivers struggling to balance roles. Utah is a well-coached team that just upgraded a lot at PG. I feel pretty confident they’ll be in the mix, which is more than I can say about almost any other team out West.

My 2019-20 season predictions:

MVP: Anthony Davis

COY: Frank Vogel

ROY: Zion.

DPOY: Gobert

Teams that will be better than expected: Rockets, T-wolves, Heat

Teams that will be worse than expected: Celtics, Warriors, Clippers

Most fascinating team: Pelicans - even before Zion gets back from injury.

Finals: Rockets over Sixers (Giff will be extra ok)

Warriors in 4

ok this is pretty good.

MVP: Julius Randle

COY: Fiz

ROY: RJ

DPOY: Frank

Trade of the Year: Curry to the Knicks for cash considerations

Teams that will be worse than expected: everyone other than the Knicks

Most interesting team: You know it

Finals: Knicks over Rockets (no OJ chase this time)

Rex wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:59 pm MVP: Julius Randle

COY: Fiz

ROY: RJ

DPOY: Frank

Trade of the Year: Curry to the Knicks for cash considerations

Teams that will be worse than expected: everyone other than the Knicks

Most interesting team: You know it

Finals: Knicks over Rockets (no OJ chase this time)

Same, but I’m calling an OJ chase.

More like an OJ chasER because you guys must be drunk!

(Mitch-Rob DPoY, not Frank.)