NFL Week 15

rass · Post by **rass** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:14 pm

Wow Buffalo.

rass · Post by **rass** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:29 pm

Lions needed that INT.

rass · Post by **rass** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:29 pm

Also, I've claimed this thread.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:39 pm

Brontoburglar · Post by **Brontoburglar** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:54 pm

Crazy to think the Chiefs lost one of their two best defensive players in week one, their third or fourth best to freaking cancer after 12 games, haven't thrown a touchdown pass to a wide receiver ... and are in the playoffs with two wins.

rass · Post by **rass** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:49 pm

Since this is my thread...

Daughter #2 has a purple punching balloon. When she found out I was rooting for the Lions over the Vikes, she decided she needed to annotate the ballon to make it clear she was rooting for Detroit, too. She drew a cute Lion, and added "boo Vikings", but keeps coming up with new things to add, so it's only a matter of time before it pops. Appropriate?

rass · Post by **rass** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:52 pm

Yup. Just as that field goal went through.

rass · Post by **rass** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:19 pm

Jets could've given us the loss of the year there. Dammit.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:57 pm

rass wrote:Jets could've given us the loss of the year there. Dammit.

Cheering for the Titans to score on that final play was the hardest I have cheered during a Jets game in years. Such a crucial game to lose and give the Titans a win, and the Jets can't even do that right. Throw is the refs resetting the clock with 1 second after Rex thought it was over, and that would have been the greatest loss ever.

Post by **brian** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:32 pm

Lions have been so abused over the years I fully expected that 68-yard FG to go in.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:30 am

My dread over manziel's debut was ... Misplaced.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:37 am

Wow Buffalo.

Holy Shit Buffalo! Aaron Rodgers looked like Kyle Orton yesterday. Bills fans now know that the team will be .500 or better for the first time in a decade.

But in classic Bills' style, the team should kill the Raiders next weekend and then roll into New England with a chance to make the playoffs... which won;t end all that well.

But whatever happens, this team is one player away from being something outstanding. Sadly, that player is a QB, but what a difference a couple years has made in Western New York. That win yesterday was unreal.

tennbengal wrote:My dread over manziel's debut was ... Misplaced.

Mine wasn't.

Ewww.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:11 am

That was just shockingly bad. Did I pick Manziel to the Bengals in the draft mock we did this year? If so...ew. My bad. He's going to be broken and out of the league really fast. Merrill Hoge appears to have been right.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:14 am

The whole team was pretty bad, and Manziel certainly was among the biggest culprits. The defense settled down after a really bad start, but the offense was pretty bad to a man.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:17 am

tennbengal wrote:That was just shockingly bad. Did I pick Manziel to the Bengals in the draft mock we did this year? If so...ew. My bad. He's going to be broken and out of the league really fast. Merrill Hoge appears to have been right.

One reaction is that it was just a first game against a good defence and a team that really needed the win (arch-rival to boot).

The other reaction is that he looked beyond belief bad. Almost as though he was on the field as he won a contest or something. It's been a while since a QB has looked quite so clueless on an NFL field.

(Actually, Geno Smith's first game against the Bills this year...)

But on the NFL Network, they were highlighting his happy feet and his complete inability to find receivers. Oh man, it's bad.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:18 am

Those lofted throws can be coached out of his system. It looked to me like he was half a second too slow on all his decisions. That's probably correctable, but it's a death sentence if not.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:32 am

I'm not going to judge his career after one game but...if he doesn't have the arm to make those floaters float less, he won't work in the NFL.

The most underrated part of Russell Wilson's game is not his ability to command a room and lead people and be smart and have a magnetic personality and yada yada, it's his cannon arm.

Johnny Carwash · Post by **Johnny Carwash** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:40 am

Yeah, Johnny Football looked awful out there.

Honest, non-rhetorical question--can anyone think of a QB that had a debut that bad and went on to be at least decent?

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:43 am

Johnny Carwash wrote:Yeah, Johnny Football looked awful out there.

Honest, non-rhetorical question--can anyone think of a QB that had a debut that bad and went on to be at least decent?

Eli Manning's first set of starts mid-year taking over for Kurt Warner were pretty fuckin' awful.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:54 am

Mark Brunell went 11 for 24 for 79 yards in his first start. In his third game he was 3 of 9 for 15 yards and a pick then 8 of 18 for 81 yards and a pick.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:56 am

Looks like Donovan McNabb was horrendous as well but avoided INTs at least, which he did effectively throughout his career by throwing bounce passes.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... elog/1999/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:04 am

Terry Bradshaw was 4-16 with a pick in his first game. Of course, his QB rating ended up being 16X better than Manziel. Aikman was bad. Stafford threw 3 picks.

The five best passer ratings for a rookie in his first week are RGIII, Matt Ryan, Jim Kelly, Cam Newton, EJ Manuel

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:14 am

Not to defend him, but Manziel was especially behind the eight ball in that they were down 17-0 by the time he set foot on the field for his third drive. Never good for an inexperienced QB to face a D that knows the game plan is out the window.

Pruitt (or anyone else, especially the lurking Bills fans), what do you think of the job Marrone has done as head coach?

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:26 am

DSafetyGuy wrote:Not to defend him, but Manziel was especially behind the eight ball in that they were down 17-0 by the time he set foot on the field for his third drive. Never good for an inexperienced QB to face a D that knows the game plan is out the window.

True...but. For those that watched it, he was lacking some NFL basics. It was pretty bad. His balls sailed. His arm looked weak (and I know from sailed and weak-looking throws as a Bengals fan - and this was several magnitudes worse than my baseline for sailed throws). He delivered balls late and made his receivers sitting ducks. He had no grasp on reads or progressions. He was quick to run and discovered NFL defenders are also fast.

It was really, REALLY, bad.

It should get better because, well, how can it get worse, but, there is a shit-ton of work to do.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:36 am

tennbengal wrote:
DSafetyGuy wrote:Not to defend him, but Manziel was especially behind the eight ball in that they were down 17-0 by the time he set foot on the field for his third drive. Never good for an inexperienced QB to face a D that knows the game plan is out the window.
True...but. For those that watched it, he was lacking some NFL basics. It was pretty bad. His balls sailed. His arm looked weak (and I know from sailed and weak-looking throws as a Bengals fan - and this was several magnitudes worse than my baseline for sailed throws). He delivered balls late and made his receivers sitting ducks. He had no grasp on reads or progressions. He was quick to run and discovered NFL defenders are also fast.

It was really, REALLY, bad.

It should get better because, well, how can it get worse, but, there is a shit-ton of work to do.

Look on the bright side, they can get two picks in a row next year in the mid teens to fix the roster.

I was definitely towards the front of the Johny Foosball bandwagon. I ain't getting off, because I think these next two games plus an offseason will be very helpful, but I was very depresses at his overall ineptitude during that game. He did say the right things afterwards, which is small consolation, but it is the type of thing he has to prove he can do to be a QB in the league.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:49 am

rass wrote:PS - loved the play call on the Steelers last 3rd and 1. Probably and mostly because it worked. I would have been mindless football fan pissed had that failed and if the Falcons had gotten the ball back and scored.

If you recall, they did the same thing to Indy to close out the game. Fucking loved it. I honestly think there's a better chance of that working than running Bell up the gut.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:55 am

Jerloma wrote:
rass wrote:PS - loved the play call on the Steelers last 3rd and 1. Probably and mostly because it worked. I would have been mindless football fan pissed had that failed and if the Falcons had gotten the ball back and scored.
If you recall, they did the same thing to Indy to close out the game. Fucking loved it. I honestly think there's a better chance of that working than running Bell up the gut.

I'm with you. I think a lot of fans focus on bad plays like when that draw lead to a safety against NYJ in 2011 and forget the times the unexpected plays work out awesomely.

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:23 am

tennbengal wrote:
True...but. For those that watched it, he was lacking some NFL basics. It was pretty bad. His balls sailed. His arm looked weak (and I know from sailed and weak-looking throws as a Bengals fan - and this was several magnitudes worse than my baseline for sailed throws). He delivered balls late and made his receivers sitting ducks. He had no grasp on reads or progressions. He was quick to run and discovered NFL defenders are also fast.

It was really, REALLY, bad.

It should get better because, well, how can it get worse, but, there is a shit-ton of work to do.

Is this the National or Local take? (I miss those on Monday mornings.)

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:28 am

Johnny Carwash wrote:Yeah, Johnny Football looked awful out there.

Honest, non-rhetorical question--can anyone think of a QB that had a debut that bad and went on to be at least decent?

John Elway had a horrible debut. On one play he lined up under the guard instead of the center. Bit of a surprise for that lineman. More recently, Drew Brees was pretty bad at first for the Chargers

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:32 am

Brees was light years better than Manziel at the beginning of his career, but he definitely did struggle for two years.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:37 am

Plenty have struggled, for sure. Yeah, I actually remember Elway's debut (I am old, I guess) - and it was a disaster.

But, holy hell, Elway had a cannon. Brees, he can sling it. In a non-wind day yesterday in Cleveland, I was appalled at how little "oomph" (technical term) Manziel was getting on his throws. That's a huge, huge problem.

Better footwork will help, I would think. Setting his feet and stepping into throws and what not. But that really isn't his preferred way of playing QB.

Again, I mock drafted him to the Bengals, and have been optimistic on the idea of him being successful in the NFL - and was caught way off guard by what I saw yesterday.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:07 pm

Here's one thing I missed or hadn't really taken time to know - Manziel ran a 4.6 40. So...that's way the fuck faster than I can run one, but not really faster than, say, an NFL LB can run. Or even some D-linemen. RGIII pre-knee injury was 4.3 and change.

In any event, it's not like his wheels are special, generally. So he will have to adapt his game somewhat for sure.

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:22 pm

Manziel seems plenty fast and shifty to me. Definitely in the top tier of NFL quarterbacks, if not equal to prime Vick or Griffin, who are rare talents.

But this probably isn't in the top 10 of factors that lead to QB success; at least not near the top of that list. He's got a lot of work to do if he's going to be even an average NFL starter. Even given an insane work ethic, he has such a long way to go that he just might not make it. Much may depend on the team around him and the scheme.

But the first question is whether he will do the work. His rep as an entitled party boy suggests he won't. But it's certainly possible that he can be just what he appears to be in the press, and still do the work. Further, some men mature in the mid twenties. Especially if they have the sudden insight that they will be professional failures unless they make big changes. Who knows Johnny Manziel well enough to know how he will respond to his challenges? Perhaps not even Johnny Manziel.

Brontoburglar · Post by **Brontoburglar** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:31 pm

tennbengal wrote:Here's one thing I missed or hadn't really taken time to know - Manziel ran a 4.6 40. So...that's way the fuck faster than I can run one, but not really faster than, say, an NFL LB can run. Or even some D-linemen. RGIII pre-knee injury was 4.3 and change.

In any event, it's not like his wheels are special, generally. So he will have to adapt his game somewhat for sure.

His wheels are special.

He was the second-fastest in the three-cone drill among QBs to Jordan Lynch and the fastest QB in the 20-yard shuttle at the combine this year. Beat Logan Thomas, who was in second, by .15. His time of 4.03 in the shuttle puts him .02 off the top 15 of any position. That's pretty impressive, and it's a much better indicator of a QB's speed and elusiveness, because it does a much better job of mimicking escaping the pocket and defenders than running in a straight line for 40 yards does.

Post by **brian** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:35 pm

I think it's kind of fascinating that there are 7 teams competing for 6 playoffs spots in the NFC (technically, more than that, but we're just slotting "random crappy NFC South team" in) and after Week 15, no one has locked up a playoff spot. Any of the 6 non-NFCS teams competing for 5 spots could miss the playoffs with the right sequence of events. I played with the ESPN playoff machine and there's a scenario where a 11-5 GB team misses the playoffs.

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:16 pm

tennbengal wrote:
DSafetyGuy wrote:Not to defend him, but Manziel was especially behind the eight ball in that they were down 17-0 by the time he set foot on the field for his third drive. Never good for an inexperienced QB to face a D that knows the game plan is out the window.
True...but. For those that watched it, he was lacking some NFL basics. It was pretty bad. His balls sailed. His arm looked weak (and I know from sailed and weak-looking throws as a Bengals fan - and this was several magnitudes worse than my baseline for sailed throws). He delivered balls late and made his receivers sitting ducks. He had no grasp on reads or progressions. He was quick to run and discovered NFL defenders are also fast.

It was really, REALLY, bad.

It should get better because, well, how can it get worse, but, there is a shit-ton of work to do.

I did watch most of it and he was absolutely terrible. Being down 17 (and he immediately threw a pick that made it pretty much made it 20-0) certainly did not help.

At the same time, the move to Manziel has a chance to be a good move in the long run.

While Cleveland making the playoffs would have been a huge bonus for the franchise and fan base, they were likely in line to get trucked in the wild card round. Hoyer's poor play in his last four games gave them a real reason to pull him (get Manziel's feet wet because the likelihood of making the postseason was small and getting smaller), but gave them a "legitimate" reason to announce the move in the press (the offense "needing a spark"). As a result, they'll continue dropping a few games and improve their (not too good) draft position, but also have three full games of Manziel on tape to evaluate and coach (I do not count a meaningless drive against a prevent defense in BUF).

It gives Manziel an understanding of how much work he needs to do if he wants to be good. His terrible play may actually slow down sponsors' interest (although if Hoyer is allowed to leave, making him the obvious starter, it could be offset) and give him "more time" to work.

Of course, so much of what he accomplished in college was a function of his athletic advantage and getting some help from receivers like Mike Evans. Who knows if he can overcome significant deficiencies in fundamentals.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:20 pm

I'm so old that I vaguely remember being in Cleveland for Bert jones' first game with the Colts.

I say "vaguely," because I remember the old guys raving about how good he looked.

Pro Football reference is a great place to clear up things like this.

Jones' line that day was positively Manzielian: 6/22 for 56 yards a TD and an Interception.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:20 pm

Aikman? That 1-15 Cowboys team was shit.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:30 pm

Just thought I'd look up some debuts of bad QBs, and was looking at Ryan Leaf.

His first outing was serviceable 16/31 192 yds a TD and 2 Ints. And of course he beat the Bills.

But by week three, alarm bells must have been going off all over Bobby Beatherd's office.

An epically bad line: 1/15 4 yds (yes, FOUR) and 2 Ints.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:32 pm

He's doing much better now though...