The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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A_B wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:39 am I'll just say Adrian beltre is glad about yesterday's proceedings.
Why do you think that? I would think Beltre would sail in on the first ballot irrespective of Rolen's enshrinement. He's one of the best half-dozen or so 3Bs ever. Couple of further notes:

A. I'm very happy for Rolen, as I watched closely his formative years. I harbor no ill will for him wanting to leave; Bowa was a total prick to him.

B. With Rolen making it in on the 7th try, I think that makes sense. And it's too bad that their careers didn't start 20 years later, where a larger group of voters better understand value, because Bobby Grich would be heading in on the 7th or so, and Whitaker would've flown in on the first try.

C. Rolen taking 7 tries illustrates the difficulty for 3B in general, as it is the least represented position by far. I think it's partially because where it is on the continuum:

SS C 2B CF 3B RF LF 1B DH

So the farther left on the continuum, defense is stressed, where on the farther on the right, hitting is stressed. Which helps explain why someone like Keith Hernandez, regarded as among the best defensive 1Bs ever, couldn't sniff (no pun intended) enshrinement. But there's not really an archetype for what an HOF 3B is. Because we don't necessarily see it as a defense-first position nor an offense-first position, the really good ones seem to fall through the cracks. Which is too bad. There's no reason Ron Santo, who was around a top 10 3B, had to wait until the veterans committee.

D. I'm cool with Andruw in there as a high-peak guy.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

Post by A_B »

Yeah, I think most would put Beltre in anyway, but this just about seals the deal if there was anything lingering.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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L-Jam3 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:56 amI'm cool with Andruw in there as a high-peak guy.
He's just got such a unique career. He's in that bucket of high-peak but (to pick a guy also mentioned here) you don't hear that about Keith Hernandez, who had less career PAs. More than changing the arc of Jones' career, what if he'd just debuted at 23-24 like the average player? His first 6 win (FG) season was his 2nd, his last was his 10th, which I assume isn't much of an outlier but he was done as a regular at age 30. Offense alone, he's not HoF level, but when you factor in he's quite possibly the second best defensive player of the last half century and that the first got in despite being an offensive negative? Just seems more like voters can't properly frame him. Rolen is a big step forward, but there's still that double-hurdle that great defensive and very good offensive players have to clear, where a 9 or 10 on defense and a 6 or 7 on offense is somehow worse than being a 10 and a 3 because it splits the focus.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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L-Jam3 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:56 am
A_B wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:39 am I'll just say Adrian beltre is glad about yesterday's proceedings.
Why do you think that? I would think Beltre would sail in on the first ballot irrespective of Rolen's enshrinement. He's one of the best half-dozen or so 3Bs ever. Couple of further notes:

A. I'm very happy for Rolen, as I watched closely his formative years. I harbor no ill will for him wanting to leave; Bowa was a total prick to him.

B. With Rolen making it in on the 7th try, I think that makes sense. And it's too bad that their careers didn't start 20 years later, where a larger group of voters better understand value, because Bobby Grich would be heading in on the 7th or so, and Whitaker would've flown in on the first try.

C. Rolen taking 7 tries illustrates the difficulty for 3B in general, as it is the least represented position by far. I think it's partially because where it is on the continuum:

SS C 2B CF 3B RF LF 1B DH

So the farther left on the continuum, defense is stressed, where on the farther on the right, hitting is stressed. Which helps explain why someone like Keith Hernandez, regarded as among the best defensive 1Bs ever, couldn't sniff (no pun intended) enshrinement. But there's not really an archetype for what an HOF 3B is. Because we don't necessarily see it as a defense-first position nor an offense-first position, the really good ones seem to fall through the cracks. Which is too bad. There's no reason Ron Santo, who was around a top 10 3B, had to wait until the veterans committee.

D. I'm cool with Andruw in there as a high-peak guy.
SS C 3B CF is how it should be, though I suppose I could see CF ahead of 3B. There's way too much emphasis on 3B needing to bring a big bat to the equation though.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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What about Jeff Kent? He wasn't even close, and now he goes to the veterans' committee.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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EnochRoot wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:05 pmSS C 3B CF is how it should be, though I suppose I could see CF ahead of 3B. There's way too much emphasis on 3B needing to bring a big bat to the equation though.
I don't agree here at all. Its not universal, but I think there's an argument for CF over SS before 3B over CF just because of the number of XBH that an OF can save over an IF.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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mister d wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:55 pm
EnochRoot wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:05 pmSS C 3B CF is how it should be, though I suppose I could see CF ahead of 3B. There's way too much emphasis on 3B needing to bring a big bat to the equation though.
I don't agree here at all. Its not universal, but I think there's an argument for CF over SS before 3B over CF just because of the number of XBH that an OF can save over an IF.
Nah. SS is far more important than CF. I’m good with SS C 3B and then CF. I mean, what is it, 75% of MLB hitters bat RH? If that were to ever flip, then yeah, CF is more important than 3B.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Fangraphs in 2015 said:

Catcher, SS, CF/3B/2B, RF, LF, 1B


I'd say a really good 3B who can cover the line saves some XBH, but doesn't have to cover the same range as a CF to do same. THough the ball is coming harder and 3B throws are more important game to game than CF throws (I say this because a typical third baseman is going to create a lot more outs throwing than a CF, but less putouts) which will generally save the extra base or hold a runner on third but not necessarily create an out. Still valuable in run prevention, of course.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Its also a position where having a good SS can allow for better positioning / additional plays to be made where CF is the trigger point for the whole OF.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderbo ... =&viz=hide

I guess what I'm saying is if you're with me, you love Willie Mays and Ken Griffey Jr. and if you're on Team 3B, you love Chipper Jones and Josh Donaldson. Your call.

(Also, R/L splits are 60/40, not 75/25.)
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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mister d wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:21 am Its also a position where having a good SS can allow for better positioning / additional plays to be made where CF is the trigger point for the whole OF.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderbo ... =&viz=hide

I guess what I'm saying is if you're with me, you love Willie Mays and Ken Griffey Jr. and if you're on Team 3B, you love Chipper Jones and Josh Donaldson. Your call.

(Also, R/L splits are 60/40, not 75/25.)
Can you source that? I’m talking dedicated L hitters (inc those who throw R), but not switch hitters.

And you want Mays and Griffey but leave me with a guy with the range of a dump truck and a bigoted gas bag? Gimme Brooks and Mike Schmidt.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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I just looked at last year’s PA splits by side off B-Ref but that felt about right? And no, you have Donaldson and I have the cool guys because you picked the asshole position. (Although now I want to do a Brooks vs Andruw comp but I’m on my phone.)
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Alright, no perfect way to do apples to apples but here we go (trying to use only era adjusted numbers) ...

Robinson (11,782 PA): .322 wOBA, 80.2 WAR (86.5% defense)
Jones (8,664 PA): .352 wOBA, 67.0 WAR (70.6% defense)

1947 onward (and granting defensive stats, esp historical, are blurry), here are the top 20 most valuable non-catcher defensive players (total WAR + defensive runs):
1. Ozzie Smith (67.6, 393.3)
2. Brooks Robinson (80.2, 375.3)
3. Mark Belanger (34.9, 359.8)
4. Cal Ripken (92.5, 320.0)
5. Luis Aparicio (49.1, 305.2)
6. Andruw Jones (67.0, 288.5)
7. Omar Vizquel (42.5, 278.8)
8. Adrian Beltre (83.8, 216.8)
9. Roy McMillan (20.0, 215.3)
10. Ozzie Guillen (13.1, 210.6)
11. Clete Boyer (29.6, 203.3)
12. Buddy Bell (61.7, 203.0)
13. Bill Mazeroski (30.9, 200.9)
14. Rey Sanchez (14.6, 200.5)
15. Alan Trammell (63.7, 185.6)
16. Ed Brinkman (10.3, 184.4)
17. Frank White (31.1, 182.8)
18. Bert Campaneris (44.9, 182.5)
19. Scott Rolen (69.9, 181.5)
20. Graig Nettles (65.7, 180.3)
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Nettles belongs in Cooperstown.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Beltre, Mauer and Helton get in.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Dammit
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Wags is 5 short with one more vote to go.

Little disappointed that Utley didn’t break 30%, his total was considerably higher in the released ballots.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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If Joe Mauer is good enough this year, then Buster Posey ought to be good enough next year.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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I like Todd Helton but he's not a Hall of Famer
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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And if he is, someone owes an explanation to John Olerud.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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mister d wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 9:54 am And if he is, someone owes an explanation to John Olerud.
Olerud has two rings, and was essentially a tic or two better than the road version of Todd Helton for his career (.863 OPS v .855 OPS). Helton had the advantage of over 4k ABs in Denver, which produced the hilarious slash line: .345 / .441 / .607.

Said home park advantage helped produce 6 or 7 seasons that Olerud’s best years fell well shy of.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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But you do have to play where you’re contracted to play. It’s a tired argument at this point. He’s clearly the best Rockie stat guy of all time, right. Sure it’s just 30 years but why hole that against someone?
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Better defensive player too.

The voters just can't stop being weird and wrong. I imagine half of them know they left better players off than they voted in, it just doesn't matter because its gatekeeping and popularity nonsense.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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A_B wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 11:14 am But you do have to play where you’re contracted to play. It’s a tired argument at this point. He’s clearly the best Rockie stat guy of all time, right. Sure it’s just 30 years but why hole that against someone?
Because its not the Rockies Hall of Fame? There are just too many outliers in Coors to pretend that its a simple home field advantage like Yankee Stadium RF or Fenway LF versus an entirely different baseline. Like here's Jeffrey Hammonds' 2000 splits ...

image.png
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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The strikeout number might be as instructive as anything there ... breaking stuff really, really wasn't working so guys could just sit on the straight stuff.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Again if he moved to colarado to the big round numbers late in career I’d be more attuned. But he played there his whole career and it is not fair to penalize him for that at his point. First few years sure but not anymore.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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A_B wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 11:33 am Again if he moved to colarado to the big round numbers late in career I’d be more attuned. But he played there his whole career and it is not fair to penalize him for that at his point. First few years sure but not anymore.
This is where I am. TBH, Helton was probably one of the guys who got away with PED usage, but that's because I view all #s from that era as suspect AF.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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A_B wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 11:33 am Again if he moved to colarado to the big round numbers late in career I’d be more attuned. But he played there his whole career and it is not fair to penalize him for that at his point. First few years sure but not anymore.
I don't think its penalizing, its just not taking his numbers at face value. Like is .316/.414/.539 at Coors better than .303/.384/.497 never playing there at home? Esp knowing Helton was .285/.391/.442 away? I think he was a very good hitter anywhere, but a Hall of Famer because of the elevation and nothing else given the massive gap in SLG.



(Comparison is Will Clark, who didn't come close to the Hall.)
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Isn't it assumed that Rockies might have taken a hit on their road numbers because of the the adjustment of coming out of elevation? Regardless, he put up crazy stats, he's the best player in franchise history (there are only so many franchises) and anyone else is welcome to go play in Colorado for 10 years and waltz into the Hall.
he’s a fixbking cyborg or some shit. The

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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Ryan wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 11:56 amIsn't it assumed that Rockies might have taken a hit on their road numbers because of the the adjustment of coming out of elevation?
It does, so you can't just say "the road is who the guy really was", but you're still getting a better picture using road versus overall. Like here's Matt Holliday, who was also very good ...

Overall: .299/.379/.510
as Rockie: .319/.387/.550
@ Coors: .360/.427/.655

We have a whole career of Holliday to see where how good he was but also how elevated his numbers were in one particular park. I'm assuming you can do this for Gonzalez, Bichette, etc, etc and see pretty similar trends. Essentially, Helton gets a reward for never leaving and proving the near-universal trend.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Yeah I'm fine with that in the general spirit of bigger hall and, weirdly for me, narrative over stats.
he’s a fixbking cyborg or some shit. The

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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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By the way, can somebody provide the numbers for Hall of Famer, Rabbit Maranville?
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Ryan wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 12:50 pm Yeah I'm fine with that in the general spirit of bigger hall and, weirdly for me, narrative over stats.
I'd totally be cool with a bigger hall if it meant the clearly deserving guys were in and then the borderline cases made it too. Its shit like Helton or Baines or Rice over _______ x 50 that drives me insane.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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mister d wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 1:05 pm
Ryan wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 12:50 pm Yeah I'm fine with that in the general spirit of bigger hall and, weirdly for me, narrative over stats.
I'd totally be cool with a bigger hall if it meant the clearly deserving guys were in and then the borderline cases made it too. Its shit like Helton or Baines or Rice over _______ x 50 that drives me insane.
Baines is the anomaly that makes no sense. Helton (and yes) Rice have far stronger cases for the Hall.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Next year's ballot is going to be pretty interesting. Ichiro is a lock and Sabathia should be too but I bet they make him wait a year just because they're the voters. Pedroia I guess could be interesting but if Utley got ignored he probably does to? Felix ... I can't believe he's not going to make it but he's probably not going to make it. Would have been well served to have his arm explode (or go blind) at 30.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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And if you look further ahead its entirely possible there are none from 2026 or 2027 and then 2028 depends on Pujols and the PED voters.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Andrelton Simmons is HOF eligible soon, cool cool bring me my slippers
he’s a fixbking cyborg or some shit. The

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