Paris massacre - Charlie Hebdo

[rass]

Man...

ETA: put in the BBC link instead, w/o the fucking auto play video that CNN included

[tennbengal]

Man...

ETA: put in the BBC link instead, w/o the fucking auto play video that CNN included

Good lord.

Yay for extremism.

I really hate religion.

[The Sybian]

Add more fuel to the anti-Muslim crowd. So sick of reading how the life mission of all Muslims is world domination and killing all infidels. Sure, the Koran says some nasty shit, but so does the Bible. And to SL's argument that I am pathetic for caring, I deeply care that a large population wants to persecute Muslims, and many state governments are enacting laws to do just that. Nothing makes me happier than seeing a mosque or an Islamic school take advantage of a law providing a benefit to religious organizations, then watching Christians and especially the legislators who pushed for the law freak out because they didn't even consider that another religion could benefit from their legislation.

But holy fuck, that is sick. Just machine gunning an office in the middle of a city in broad daylight. Really hope they catch those sick fucks. Hell of a grudge to hold over a cartoon published 3 years ago.

[A_B]

That dish was certainly cold.

[L-Jam3]

Damn, some people just can't take a joke...








(ducking the lightning bolt).

[degenerasian]

It's the first targeted attack I can remember. I remember the Danish cartoons, in the aftermath they bombed the Danish embassy in Pakistan.

[rass]

It's the first targeted attack I can remember. I remember the Danish cartoons, in the aftermath they bombed the Danish embassy in Pakistan.

Hmm.

[Jerloma]

Syb, obviously most Muslims ignore the violent commands of their holy book but if you think Islam isn't the problem here, you're just wrong. People don't blow shit up for drawing someone without religion. People don't hijack planes and fly them into buildings without religion. We shouldn't condemn Muslims for this but the idea itself should be eviscerated mercilessly.

[Pruitt]

This is chilling.

Another cartoon, released in this week's issue and entitled Still No Attacks in France, had a caricature of an extremist fighter saying "Just wait — we have until the end of January to present our New Year's wishes."

The argument - rather, the FACT - that 99.9% of Muslims are not murderous fanatics is fine. And there should never be blind retribution against an entire group for the actions of its worst members. But I'm sorry, the fact of the matter is that no one from another one of the groups of other people who may have been offended by that magazine firebombed and then a few years later went in with guns and killed a dozen people.

It is a horrible dilemma for lawmakers and members of a civilized society to have to deal with. And further to the link to the murder of Theo van Gogh, Ian Buruma wrote a fantastic book about it that is very relevant to this situation -



It really helps to calmly explain the root of this sort of extremism.

[Jerloma]

You ever notice that the most devout religious people always seem to have the least faith in their deity's ability to handle those that allegedly offend him?

[Giff]

Add more fuel to the anti-Muslim crowd. So sick of reading how the life mission of all Muslims is world domination and killing all infidels. Sure, the Koran says some nasty shit, but so does the Bible. And to SL's argument that I am pathetic for caring, I deeply care that a large population wants to persecute Muslims, and many state governments are enacting laws to do just that. Nothing makes me happier than seeing a mosque or an Islamic school take advantage of a law providing a benefit to religious organizations, then watching Christians and especially the legislators who pushed for the law freak out because they didn't even consider that another religion could benefit from their legislation.

But holy fuck, that is sick. Just machine gunning an office in the middle of a city in broad daylight. Really hope they catch those sick fucks. Hell of a grudge to hold over a cartoon published 3 years ago.

I agree with you for the most part. It's easy for me to say as Christian-raised, now pretty much non-religious person who became that way in part becuase of how many abuse Christianity, but man it would be so hard for me to want to associate with these people at all. Sure, the Bible says some awful shit and many believers say and do the same, but who outside of some Christian terrorists in Africa are murdering completely innocent men, women and children in the name of Christianity?

[brian]

Add more fuel to the anti-Muslim crowd. So sick of reading how the life mission of all Muslims is world domination and killing all infidels. Sure, the Koran says some nasty shit, but so does the Bible. And to SL's argument that I am pathetic for caring, I deeply care that a large population wants to persecute Muslims, and many state governments are enacting laws to do just that. Nothing makes me happier than seeing a mosque or an Islamic school take advantage of a law providing a benefit to religious organizations, then watching Christians and especially the legislators who pushed for the law freak out because they didn't even consider that another religion could benefit from their legislation.

But holy fuck, that is sick. Just machine gunning an office in the middle of a city in broad daylight. Really hope they catch those sick fucks. Hell of a grudge to hold over a cartoon published 3 years ago.

I agree with you for the most part. It's easy for me to say as Christian-raised, now pretty much non-religious person who became that way in part becuase of how many abuse Christianity, but man it would be so hard for me to want to associate with these people at all. Sure, the Bible says some awful shit and many believers say and do the same, but who outside of some Christian terrorists in Africa are murdering completely innocent men, women and children in the name of Christianity?

There's the nuts who have killed (and would like to continue to kill) abortion doctors. There's a reason why it's much harder to get an abortion now and it's not just because of politicians.

[degenerasian]

If 99% of Muslims are not murderous fanatics who's funding the 1%? Moreso in Europe than in America.

What would happened if hypothetically Westboro Baptist became global and started attacking people outside of America? They would have to be funded by someone and their group a lot larger.

[Jerloma]

Add more fuel to the anti-Muslim crowd. So sick of reading how the life mission of all Muslims is world domination and killing all infidels. Sure, the Koran says some nasty shit, but so does the Bible. And to SL's argument that I am pathetic for caring, I deeply care that a large population wants to persecute Muslims, and many state governments are enacting laws to do just that. Nothing makes me happier than seeing a mosque or an Islamic school take advantage of a law providing a benefit to religious organizations, then watching Christians and especially the legislators who pushed for the law freak out because they didn't even consider that another religion could benefit from their legislation.

But holy fuck, that is sick. Just machine gunning an office in the middle of a city in broad daylight. Really hope they catch those sick fucks. Hell of a grudge to hold over a cartoon published 3 years ago.

I agree with you for the most part. It's easy for me to say as Christian-raised, now pretty much non-religious person who became that way in part becuase of how many abuse Christianity, but man it would be so hard for me to want to associate with these people at all. Sure, the Bible says some awful shit and many believers say and do the same, but who outside of some Christian terrorists in Africa are murdering completely innocent men, women and children in the name of Christianity?

That's because of the greatest idea ever...separation of church and state.

[Giff]

Add more fuel to the anti-Muslim crowd. So sick of reading how the life mission of all Muslims is world domination and killing all infidels. Sure, the Koran says some nasty shit, but so does the Bible. And to SL's argument that I am pathetic for caring, I deeply care that a large population wants to persecute Muslims, and many state governments are enacting laws to do just that. Nothing makes me happier than seeing a mosque or an Islamic school take advantage of a law providing a benefit to religious organizations, then watching Christians and especially the legislators who pushed for the law freak out because they didn't even consider that another religion could benefit from their legislation.

But holy fuck, that is sick. Just machine gunning an office in the middle of a city in broad daylight. Really hope they catch those sick fucks. Hell of a grudge to hold over a cartoon published 3 years ago.

I agree with you for the most part. It's easy for me to say as Christian-raised, now pretty much non-religious person who became that way in part becuase of how many abuse Christianity, but man it would be so hard for me to want to associate with these people at all. Sure, the Bible says some awful shit and many believers say and do the same, but who outside of some Christian terrorists in Africa are murdering completely innocent men, women and children in the name of Christianity?

There's the nuts who have killed (and would like to continue to kill) abortion doctors. There's a reason why it's much harder to get an abortion now and it's not just because of politicians.

Per Wiki, the number of murder victims by anti-abortion activists doesn't even match how many were killed in this one incident yesterday. And, not that I'm anything but pro-choice nor at all defending these wackos, but at least they actually think they're killing murderers, not just someone who offended them. It'd be like Christian extremists opening fire at an SNL taping after the Tebow/Jesus skit a few years ago.

[Jerloma]

[The Sybian]

Add more fuel to the anti-Muslim crowd. So sick of reading how the life mission of all Muslims is world domination and killing all infidels. Sure, the Koran says some nasty shit, but so does the Bible. And to SL's argument that I am pathetic for caring, I deeply care that a large population wants to persecute Muslims, and many state governments are enacting laws to do just that. Nothing makes me happier than seeing a mosque or an Islamic school take advantage of a law providing a benefit to religious organizations, then watching Christians and especially the legislators who pushed for the law freak out because they didn't even consider that another religion could benefit from their legislation.

But holy fuck, that is sick. Just machine gunning an office in the middle of a city in broad daylight. Really hope they catch those sick fucks. Hell of a grudge to hold over a cartoon published 3 years ago.

I agree with you for the most part. It's easy for me to say as Christian-raised, now pretty much non-religious person who became that way in part becuase of how many abuse Christianity, but man it would be so hard for me to want to associate with these people at all. Sure, the Bible says some awful shit and many believers say and do the same, but who outside of some Christian terrorists in Africa are murdering completely innocent men, women and children in the name of Christianity?

It's happened before, and there are still random nuts who kill in the name of Christianity. I don't disagree with J-Lo's post at all. Islam says some horrible stuff, and some extremists pervert it to justify killing and committing atrocities. No doubt. I am just saying that people condemning all Muslims and attempting to deny them rights are fucked up. While American Christians aren't killing in the name of Jesus, they are certainly denying gay people the right to marry, but it is against THEIR religious beliefs. They pulled the same shit to deny blacks civil rights in the 1960s. I am sick of hearing people veil their ignorance, bigotry and hate in religion, then claiming people are intolerant of their beliefs. Believe homosexuality is a sin all you want, nobody is intolerant of that belief, but deny others their rights, no, I won't tolerate legislating bigotry.

Edited to remove response to misread sentence

[howard]

…who outside of some Christian terrorists in Africa are murdering completely innocent men, women and children in the name of Christianity?

The US military, in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, et al. They surely are mostly Christian. They sure mention God a lot. Or God and Country. Or USA and Freedom--maybe not Christianity per se, but sure sounds like religious fervor to me, this patriotism which in its name has murdered a shitpile of brown people on the other side of the world.

All the murder in the world, by crazed individuals or crazed nation states, labeling as 'in the name of _____' misses the damn point.

It is the murder that is the point, not what the murderer shouts out as they commit the murder.

Chris Rock tweeted the other day something to the effect of: a black man kills someone, and all black people have responsibility. a muslim kills someone, and a whole religion is blamed. a rich white guy kills someone, and he is a crazed lone wolf.

If this kind of murder was characteristic of muslim people, this would be happening every fucking day on the streets of Paris. It is an extremist problem, not a muslim problem.

But, no matter. I know where this will go. I saw it in this country after 9/11. In another country after the Reichstag fire. Say hello to president Le Pen, and to a whole lot of brown muslim French people taking more shit than they currently suffer. Not saying it is right or wrong, rational or unjustified, just saying what is gonna happen.

[Jerloma]

Per Wiki, the number of murder victims by anti-abortion activists doesn't even match how many were killed in this one incident yesterday. And, not that I'm anything but pro-choice nor at all defending these wackos, but at least they actually think they're killing murderers, not just someone who offended them. It'd be like Christian extremists opening fire at an SNL taping after the Tebow/Jesus skit a few years ago.

It'd be like Christians lighting people on fire for blasphemy and heresy...which is exactly what happened then they had theocracies to play with...just like Islam today.

[tennbengal]

Yeah, still not down with religion in general.

[Gunpowder]

They would have had to kill like 30 more to match Baruch Goldstein.

It's harder and harder to defend Muslims but religion in general, like TB said, is ridiculous. And Jerloma is right on - the people who are most devout seem to consistently miss the only God can judge us part.

[The Sybian]

Howard made a great point regarding our troops in the Middle East. Bush made several references to invading Iraq being a war on religion, God being on our side, etc... A hell of a lot of American Christian soldiers claim to be in the Middle East fighting for God and religion. I recently read Chris Kyle's memoir American Sniper (the basis for the Bradley Cooper movie), and he made numerous mentions about his Christianity being a driving force for him in the war. I had just been thinking about terrorism in the name of Christianity, but this is probably worse.

Then you have General Boykin, who had such claims that, "Bin Laden is not the enemy. No mortal is the enemy. It's the enemy you can't see. It's a war against the forces of darkness." Saying that he would defeat the Muslims because, "my God is bigger than theirs." He also said Bush was appointed by God, and that Bush was leading a war against Satan, and that he had seen demons in the enemy. Pretty scary stuff, dehumanizing the people you are invading because they pray to a different God (even if it is the same God by a different name). Rumsfeld refused to denounce these comments when asked.

[Johnnie]

From Duffel Blog: BREAKING: Right-Wing Terrorists Murder 12 Mother Jones Employees Over Palin Cartoons

Also:

[bfj]

They would have had to kill like 30 more to match Baruch Goldstein.

If you want, we can total all the atrocities committed in the "name of Allah" and those committed by extreme right wing fanatical Jews and see how those numbers compare.

It's harder and harder to defend Muslims but religion in general, like TB said, is ridiculous. And Jerloma is right on - the people who are most devout seem to consistently miss the only God can judge us part.

They get that, they think this is what g d wants. It says so in the book.

[Joe K]

…who outside of some Christian terrorists in Africa are murdering completely innocent men, women and children in the name of Christianity?

The US military, in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, et al. They surely are mostly Christian. They sure mention God a lot. Or God and Country. Or USA and Freedom--maybe not Christianity per se, but sure sounds like religious fervor to me, this patriotism which in its name has murdered a shitpile of brown people on the other side of the world.

All the murder in the world, by crazed individuals or crazed nation states, labeling as 'in the name of _____' misses the damn point.

It is the murder that is the point, not what the murderer shouts out as they commit the murder.

Chris Rock tweeted the other day something to the effect of: a black man kills someone, and all black people have responsibility. a muslim kills someone, and a whole religion is blamed. a rich white guy kills someone, and he is a crazed lone wolf.

If this kind of murder was characteristic of muslim people, this would be happening every fucking day on the streets of Paris. It is an extremist problem, not a muslim problem.

But, no matter. I know where this will go. I saw it in this country after 9/11. In another country after the Reichstag fire. Say hello to president Le Pen, and to a whole lot of brown muslim French people taking more shit than they currently suffer. Not saying it is right or wrong, rational or unjustified, just saying what is gonna happen.

Or, if you want a more apples-to-apples comparison, how about Anders Brievik? He killed 77 people in Norway back in 2011, and one of his professed ideologies was:

I believe Europe should strive for: A cultural conservative approach where monoculturalism, moral, the nuclear family, a free market, support for Israel and our Christian cousins of the east, law and order and Christendom itself must be central aspects (unlike now).

[sancarlos]

Hitchens, man. Was the most eloquent and fearless atheist I know of.

[Joe K]

Hitchens, man. Was the most eloquent and fearless atheist I know of.

Going back to Howard's point, though, Hitchens -- like many of his fellow vocal critics of Islam -- was a staunch and influential advocate of the Iraq War, which was one of the most destructive ideas of recent decades. Even after the (at least) hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties in Iraq was well known, he expressed no regrets for his position.

[Gunpowder]

They would have had to kill like 30 more to match Baruch Goldstein.

If you want, we can total all the atrocities committed in the "name of Allah" and those committed by extreme right wing fanatical Jews and see how those numbers compare.

I do want, and then I do want you to explain how this shows that Islam is the only religion that people kill over.

[Joe K]

They would have had to kill like 30 more to match Baruch Goldstein.

If you want, we can total all the atrocities committed in the "name of Allah" and those committed by extreme right wing fanatical Jews and see how those numbers compare.

I do want, and then I do want you to explain how this shows that Islam is the only religion that people kill over.

Also worth keeping in mind that Islam in the 2nd largest religion in the world (by a wide margin) so, strictly as a matter of math, you would expect there to be a lot more atrocities committed by Muslims than by any religion other than Christianity. Given that there are over 100 times the number of Muslims as Jews worldwide, I'm not sure how probative BFJ's proposed comparison is.

[Gunpowder]

They would have had to kill like 30 more to match Baruch Goldstein.

If you want, we can total all the atrocities committed in the "name of Allah" and those committed by extreme right wing fanatical Jews and see how those numbers compare.

I do want, and then I do want you to explain how this shows that Islam is the only religion that people kill over.

Also worth keeping in mind that Islam in the 2nd largest religion in the world (by a wide margin) so, strictly as a matter of math, you would expect there to be a lot more atrocities committed by Muslims than by any religion other than Christianity. Given that there are over 100 times the number of Muslims as Jews worldwide, I'm not sure how probative BFJ's proposed comparison is.

Yeah, I'm not saying Muslims don't suck, I was just pointing out one example in response to the presumption that it's only Muslims killing for religion.

[bfj]

I certainly never said that Islam was the only religion that kills people. In modern times, it seems like that is the predominant religion that claims murders in the name of their g d. Maybe that is because of the mathematical numbers.

You chose to throw out Baruch Goldstein as an example, and I dont dispute that what he did was horrible, but there is nothing I know of in the Torah that says he will be rewarded for what he did. I certainly don't excuse what he did. Didn't mean to imply that if I did. I don't think anyone in this thread ever said it was Muslims only.

[tennbengal]

I have equally little patience for the killing done in whichever God's name it is done.

I find what is happening to Palestine as abhorrent as what happened in Paris.

I am guessing that is not a mainstream view.

[Jerloma]

I certainly never said that Islam was the only religion that kills people. In modern times, it seems like that is the predominant religion that claims murders in the name of their g d. Maybe that is because of the mathematical numbers.

I already told you why. It's because Islam has the most theocratic regimes by far. It's because of Sharia law. It's because it lives in places that haven't yet realized that ancient holy books make terrible fucking constitutions. That's the answer. That's the only answer.

Syb is absolutely correct...there is no action that you can justify with a Qur'an that you can't justify with a Bible. Secular governments are the only answer to religions that are hellbent on world domination. Fuck even in places like Myanmar where the majority religion is Buddhist, they're a bunch of slaughtering tyrants because they haven't figured out that religion sucks at governing.

[Jerloma]

Let's not forget the cowardly response from the Vatican the last time this happened either...

The right to freedom of thought and expression, sanctioned by the Declaration of the Rights of Man, cannot imply the right to offend the religious sentiment of believers. This principle applies obviously for any religion. In addition, coexistence calls for a climate of mutual respect to favor peace among men and nations. Moreover, these forms of exasperated criticism or derision of others manifest a lack of human sensitivity and may constitute in some cases an inadmissible provocation. A reading of history shows that wounds that exist in the life of peoples are not cured this way.

[degenerasian]

Tyrants in general suck at governing, religion or not.

[Jerloma]

Tyrants in general suck at governing, religion or not.

You are of course correct but it tends to be the one's that claim divine authority that last several hundreds of years. Bad ideologies are just easier to kill when the people that they are controlling don't think that their oppression is part of some divine mission that will make them immortal.

I always think that China could have a successful revolution but it's probably just too populated (notice I didn't say large) to organize something like that.

North Korea, I doubt it. There's nothing secular about that place. Those guys are Gods unto themselves. Fuck...the dead father and grandfather still hold the highest offices in the land.

I think we could turn the Middle East into a crater and it would only make Islam stronger.

[degenerasian]

yeah, they killed an office of cartoonists and now look how strong the cartoonists are today. So many cartoons showing that indeed the pen is mightier than the AK47. Attacking anyone just makes them stronger.

And this was an inside job by French citizens.. what can you do?

are you talking about the 1989 Chinese Revolution or ones before that? or a hypothetical revolution today?

[Jerloma]

And this was an inside job by French citizens.. what can you do?

Except they weren't screaming "ALLONS-Y!!!...they were screaming "ALLAHU AKBAR!"

They were doing this because they subscribe to Sharia law...a code that makes them think they have a duty to kill people for the fake crime of blasphemy.

What can I do? Unfortunately, not much. I can condemn the fuck out of it but unfortunate I live in a world where people think shitty ideas deserve unwarranted respect just because it might offend people to criticize them. As long as that's a thing, the people committing these crimes have exactly the kind of environment they need.

are you talking about the 1989 Chinese Revolution or ones before that? or a hypothetical revolution today?

Yeah, I'm not talking about some students getting together for a peaceful protest. I think that enough people in China want more democracy that if they were able to organize something like that, they could succeed.

[sancarlos]

Tyrants in general suck at governing, religion or not.

I think a benevolent dictatorship gets the most accomplished and is the most efficient form of government. No legislative gridlock or anything.

Of course, "benevolent" is in the eye of the beholder.

[degenerasian]

I think that Chinese Revolution you are talking about could happen within 15 years.

The main trigger: unsustainable employment and growth.

The Chinese 18-35 demographic has nothing to complain about right now. In fact things are pretty good. If you were born in China in 1985. You were born when China was backwards and down in the dumps. Saw your parents struggle. But as you've grown up through the education system and entered the workforce, you've seen China grow exponentially. Always promising 8-10% growth. If you're educated there are plenty of engineering jobs. If you're uneducated there are plenty of labor jobs. Rural guy who was farming for nothing now can come into the city and find work.

However, I've read that this April 2015 graduating class is facing the worst job market in 20 years. Is that economic growth rate declining? If you're a factory worker who's 25 years old and have gotten 5-10% raises each of the 3 years you've worked, what happens if those raises are decreased? What happens if China starts downsizing? Will people take to the streets? It's a possibility all the workers in all the cities rise at once.

For revolution to happen, the government has to be incompetent and takes things away from people that they're accustomed too. In North Korea people have nothing to take away, so they think everything is fine.