Paris massacre - Charlie Hebdo

[rass]

Tyrants in general suck at governing, religion or not.

I think a benevolent dictatorship gets the most accomplished and is the most efficient form of government. No legislative gridlock or anything.

Of course, "benevolent" is in the eye of the beholder.

sancarlos has gone Anakin Skywalker

(I really wish I didn't remember that shitty scene)

[Jerloma]

Thanks Degen. Isn't there still slavery and other crazy human rights violation going on in China right now?

SC, I've never heard of that but it seems like a benevolent dictatorship might have a really terrible justice system.

[bfj]

I have equally little patience for the killing done in whichever God's name it is done.

I find what is happening to Palestine as abhorrent as what happened in Paris.

I am guessing that is not a mainstream view.

What's Palestine?/sarcasm

[sancarlos]

Tyrants in general suck at governing, religion or not.

I think a benevolent dictatorship gets the most accomplished and is the most efficient form of government. No legislative gridlock or anything.

Of course, "benevolent" is in the eye of the beholder.

sancarlos has gone Anakin Skywalker

(I really wish I didn't remember that shitty scene)

Ha!

[howard]

Secular governments are the only answer to religions that are hellbent on world domination.

You mean secular governments that are hellbent on world domination? Like ours? And the hundreds of thousands of deaths at the hands of our secular government in the past 15 years.

Yeah, religion is the fucking problem.

As I said before, what they yell as they murder is beside the damn point. If you think this particular dozen murders is the fault of religion, you are just wrong. Religion is the excuse for the murderous hatred. Just an excuse.

[Rush2112]

The worship of money is the worst of all religions.

[howard]

The worship of money is the worst of all religions.

That is the secular God of the west and the USA. In whose name millions die.

[DC47]

But what about the shining city on the hill?

[degenerasian]

Thanks Degen. Isn't there still slavery and other crazy human rights violation going on in China right now?

Depends. Do we consider the treatment of Tibet and Xinjiang human rights violations? The guy in Beijing probably doesn't care or doesn't even know about it. Is making $5/day working in smelly dirty factories slavery? It's all about perception. I read a study that making $9000 per year is the bottom end of the middle class in China.

[Jerloma]

Secular governments are the only answer to religions that are hellbent on world domination.

You mean secular governments that are hellbent on world domination? Like ours? And the hundreds of thousands of deaths at the hands of our secular government in the past 15 years.

Yeah, religion is the fucking problem.

As I said before, what they yell as they murder is beside the damn point. If you think this particular dozen murders is the fault of religion, you are just wrong. Religion is the excuse for the murderous hatred. Just an excuse.

Well you said yourself that the response to 9/11 hasn't exactly been void of theocratic motivation either. I didn't say we were good at secular governmenting...but the idea is brilliant.

As for Hedbo, I don't know how you can possibly call murdering cartoonists for blasphemy anything but religiously-motivated.

Why do you do feel the need to do that anyway? Every time something happens that on the surface so clearly looks to be for religious reasons, you always look for other hidden reasons that could be the problem. When something happens that appears to be for other reasons that people do awful shit like say land, money, oil, power, etc...you would never take a step back and try to find a religious reason behind it. It's as if you've set it up so religion can't lose.

When people do charitable work because they feel that it's divinely-mandated by their creator and will help to make them immortal, do you ever brush that off and try to find more logical reasons for why they'd be charitable?

Think about our favorite Jefferson quote again and then tell me what propositions Hedbo was ridiculing.

[sancarlos]

But what about the shining city on the hill?

You mean Boston?

[DC47]

I think Reagan probably meant Dallas.

Also, how can people forget American Exceptionalism? Our theocracy+greed is far more noble than that of others. Pursuing our shining ends will quickly trickle down to the lesser peoples of Nigeria, Iraqhistan, Indonesia, Columbia, Germany, and such like. Maybe not China or Russia. They're pushing their luck these days. Stepping out of line.

[howard]

As for Hedbo, I don't know how you can possibly call murdering cartoonists for blasphemy anything but religiously-motivated.

It is insanity motivated. Extremism motivated.

You frequently seem to differentiate 'religious-based' violence from other violence. Potato-potato. (Setting aside any assessment on my part of your 'needs'.)

Religion (imo) is only a front for human nature. It has been largely substituted since the early 20th century by other ideologies that are just as pernicious, just as murderous if not moreso.

The worship of secular, non-religious ideologies result in crazed murderous behavior, at large and small levels, and there is no difference. Millions worship rationality, science, freedom, 'free market capitalism', 'murica, et al, and misrepresent the true nature of those ideas just as easily as the millions over the centuries who did the same for monotheistic dominant religions.

The difference you attribute to religious ideology I think is completely false and spurious. This has nothing to do with my 'needs'.

It is ideology, and tribalism. Religious or otherwise. Ends in murder and tears.

[Jerloma]

And here we go with the "science and reason are ideologies" BS.

I'm can't. I'm done.

[howard]

science and reason provide cover for ideologies. they are misused, and the misrepresentations are widely swallowed.

Sorry you cannot handle that fact of life.

[Jerloma]

Can someone please tell howard that science and reason are specifically designed to be self-correcting and therefore cannot be ideologies and that anyone who is clinging to reasonable and scientific ideas simply because that's how they came to those conclusions and in spite of facts that contradict those ideas are ceasing to be reasonable and scientific.

[sancarlos]

I think Reagan probably meant Dallas.

I knew you were quoting Reagan (I think GWB also used that imagery), but as you may know, the original quote that Reagan was parroting was by a Puritan, talking about Boston.

[DC47]

I knew you knew I knew, etc. I think the Reagan allusion is pretty funny. But maybe I never saw the best part of Dallas.

[Giff]

I knew you knew I knew, etc. I think the Reagan allusion is pretty funny. But maybe I never saw the best part of Dallas.

Are you still there? If not, then you've seen the best of it.

[Jerloma]

Suspects killed in a shoot-out with police. It appears a few hostages at the supermarket may have been killed as well.

[howard]

J-lo, I never said science and reason were ideologies. You misconstrued that. I did not say this.

And here we go with the "science and reason are ideologies" BS.

I'm can't. I'm done.

I did not say this. But, what did I expect?

______________________


It cannot be said too many times. The news media just sucks. I watched cnn, fox and al jazeera. All terrible, wrt reporters and anchors just saying any nonsense that comes to mind. Just making up shit. Sure, I expected no more.

ETA: something being reported now, which of course may turn out to be false, is that one of the criminals at the kosher market escaped, blending in with the hostages. Guess she saw the film Inside Man.

[Jerloma]

You did not, howard...I apologize. That was a fallacious accusation. I was wrong.

My concern with you is this. You always want to absolve religion when something reeks of religious motivation. There are 109 verses in the Qur'an explicitly commanding death to infidels. Just because most Muslims ignore them, doesn't mean that Islam isn't a motivating factor. When something like this happens that is so obviously a result of this notion that we can't use our free speech to criticize certain ideas just because certain people consider those ideas sacred...the correct response is not to shy away from criticizing those ideas and look for other factors.

Okay, so let's say I grant you that Islam and it's murderous, pedophile prophet are just an excuse...who gives a shit? If it's the excuse they are using, it's still the problem. When you take out the kid gloves, you're doing exactly what those fuckers want society to do. I don't think you do it out of fear but nonetheless...those people were murdered for a principle that I know you hold dear. They had balls the size of Chicago. It's not time to back down from their message.

[The Sybian]

ETA: something being reported now, which of course may turn out to be false, is that one of the criminals at the kosher market escaped, blending in with the hostages. Guess she saw the film Inside Man.

Should have gone Killing Zoe

[howard]

I don't mean to absolve religion, per se. Indeed, I might suggest that blaming religion 'absolves' the criminal act.

Amongst the ideas that people kill in the name of is religion. (Including Christianity.) The idea is not the point. The crime, the murder, the violence is the point; the idea, religion or ideology, is the excuse.

As the role of religion in running big powerful nation states decreased in the 20th century, the insane violence did not.

You know, if we were discussing this f2f, or even vocally rather than over the message board, there would be minimal (if any) disagreement between our views.

When you say 'religion did this', and I counter 'well, unreligion did this other thing that is just as bad', I am not saying religion good, much less religion is absolved.

I'm saying the sine qua non is not religion, but simple human nature. Human nature being to latch onto a tribe, a group identity, a system of ideas, to guide or excuse really fucked up violent behavior. Religion only the most popular choice.

[Jerloma]

I'm saying the sine qua non is not religion, but simple human nature. Human nature being to latch onto a tribe, a group identity, a system of ideas, to guide or excuse really fucked up violent behavior. Religion only the most popular choice.

I agree with that completely.

(Even though I had to look up sine qua non).

You're still aight, nome sane?

[howard]

You're still aight, nome sane?

My advisory team (sales, marketing, branding) advised if I want to break the Top 5 in 2015 I need to kick up the controversy.

ETA:

(Even though I had to look up sine qua non).

Isn't that a thing we're doing in the swamp right now? Throwing out latin expressions in a douchie manner?

[howard]

PSG shirts this week:

[Johnnie]

The winnerfaces on Reddit have been going nutso with provoking images of Mohammed just for the sake of assholishness. It's juvenile and disgusting. The Atheism subreddit is just piling on.

But one Reddit user by the name AWildSketchAppeared, who has quite the prolific following, drew this pic inspired by the phrase "If your faith can be shaken by a drawing, then you have none."

Between this one and a few shared by (not created by) Banksy on his Instagram, they capture the point quite definitively.

[Johnnie]

This guy gets it.

[Johnnie]

There was this craziness to the story: Charlie Hebdo: French police commissioner 'kills himself after meeting with victim's family'.

Insert Dr. Evil air quotes picture: "Kills Himself"

Also this: France declares war on terrorism after attacks

Finally, 3 million copies, printed in 16 languages, will be the next magazine printed. Insane when you consider they have been losing money and were sliding towards bankruptcy.

And, yes, you do see two subtle dicks drawn into this picture.

[Pruitt]

There was this craziness to the story: Charlie Hebdo: French police commissioner 'kills himself after meeting with victim's family'.

Insert Dr. Evil air quotes picture: "Kills Himself"

So technically, he also killed himself after drinking coffee. What a ridiculous headline.

[The Sybian]

There was this craziness to the story: Charlie Hebdo: French police commissioner 'kills himself after meeting with victim's family'.

Insert Dr. Evil air quotes picture: "Kills Himself"

So technically, he also killed himself after drinking coffee. What a ridiculous headline.

He was described as "overworked." I guess he just wasn't up for the marathon of working 42 hours in a single week.

[testuser2]

This guy gets it.

This is great. His quote "terrorism works" is something that doesn't get talked about enough. I also like the idea of spreading the risk. The tactic of responding with force isn't the only option. I would love to see publishers like Murdoch or Gannet take the lead and publish the original Ebdo cartoon on the same day in all their newspapers in response. The responsibility shouldn't be on the little guys like Charlie Ebdo.

[Shirley]

This guy gets it.

This is great. His quote "terrorism works" is something that doesn't get talked about enough. I also like the idea of spreading the risk. The tactic of responding with force isn't the only option. I would love to see publishers like Murdoch or Gannet take the lead and publish the original Ebdo cartoon on the same day in all their newspapers in response. The responsibility shouldn't be on the little guys like Charlie Ebdo.

Word.

Instead, we'll get tough guy speeches all around about how "we'll never negotiate with terrorists" or "we'll never back down from terrorism" followed up by a bunch of new laws removing citizen rights.

[Jerloma]

It may surprise some of you guys to find out that there have been times when I've been known to take some innocuous jabs at another rather large religion from which Islam arose, as every time I turn my head there's another story of it flogging the Constitution or trying to control what someone else is doing (usually while their naked). So when I do this, there's this group of people that tends to pop up on various social media sites and even in real life whose only response has ever been "I DARE YOU TO TO SAY THAT ABOUT ISLAM! TRY SAYING THAT ABOUT MUHAMMAD YOU FUCKING COWARD!"

Now, I've been rather emphatic in my disdain for Sharia blasphemy laws over the past week and as a person who derives meaning out of life from the ability and freedom to express myself and who also tries to pass that on to his children, fuck these people to high, holy hell. Incidentally though, I haven't heard a fucking peep out of those assholes in the past week.

I'm not saying that they condone murdering people for drawing cartoons, but I do think that sometimes they look over at the Middle East and some of their stone age morals and think..."Maybe not such a bad idea." I think a lot of people on this side of the pond do think that certain ideas should be above criticism and that should be legally mandated. I think a lot of people while claiming to be the most patriotic do have a certain disdain for the key principles of our Constitution.

So that's what's I think. That's where we are. The right is a bunch of religious nutjobs and the left is a bunch of pussies that abandon the very principles that they're suppose to be fighting for just so they can appease every asshole with a Qur'an.

[P.D.X.]

I also like the idea of spreading the risk. The tactic of responding with force isn't the only option.

Too bad we missed the perfect opportunity with that Sony movie bullshit. What was N. Korea going to do against 1000 movie theaters?

[Joe K]

The right is a bunch of religious nutjobs and the left is a bunch of pussies that abandon the very principles that they're suppose to be fighting for just so they can appease every asshole with a Qur'an.

How do you define "the left"? Because if you changed that phrase to "Democrats," your statement would be laughable. Just in the Obama years alone, we've had military actions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, etc.; a failure to prosecute anyone in connection with the establishment of a global torture regime; continued operation of Gitmo; and a comprehensive effort to block any and all UN steps towards recognizing Palestinian statehood. That really doesn't sound like very effective appeasement to me.

[Jerloma]

The right is a bunch of religious nutjobs and the left is a bunch of pussies that abandon the very principles that they're suppose to be fighting for just so they can appease every asshole with a Qur'an.

How do you define "the left"? Because if you changed that phrase to "Democrats," your statement would be laughable. Just in the Obama years alone, we've had military actions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, etc.; a failure to prosecute anyone in connection with the establishment of a global torture regime; continued operation of Gitmo; and a comprehensive effort to block any and all UN steps towards recognizing Palestinian statehood. That really doesn't sound like very effective appeasement to me.

That's very true. We don't give away too much when it comes to defense but to howard's point, I think we'd be naive to think that our military efforts aren't about money and power. I'm talking about the war of ideas. Barack Obama is one of the biggest apologists for Islam that you'll ever come across. I mean, I don't know what the dangers are for him to just come right out and say that the main tenets of Islam aren't compatible with a modern, pluralistic society and secular, democratic governments but I tend to think that all of this "Islam isn't part of the problem; it's part of the solution" bullshit is dangerous and irresponsible. I think it creates an environment where it's bad guys can flourish.

[mister d]

I don't know what the dangers are for him to just come right out and say that the main tenets of Islam aren't compatible with a modern, pluralistic society and secular, democratic governments ...

Of course you do. The danger is any anti-islamic comment is that its inevitably embraced as pro-christianity and would further ostracize islamic americans. You can say it shouldn't be but that's not real life.

[Jerloma]

That's true, D. I guess I'm speculating upon the lesser of two evils.