AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:44 pm

If Reddit r/NFL is any indicator, everyone on there is rolling their eyes and making an air jerk off motion collectively.

The media needs to circle jerk over a nontroversy and they are doing just that.

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:46 pm

brian wrote:Except "Spygate" was a real thing that the Patriots were actually punished for, not some figment of our collective imagination.

Except what the general public thinks they were fined/punished for is not what they were actually punished for.

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:47 pm

Too big to post, so I'll link. This comic sums it up nicely.

Post by **brian** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:49 pm

I think Belichick would slit his mother's throat if he thought it would give the Patriots an advantage somehow, so I don't think it's quite so preposterous to believe, but I don't see how the NFL would be able to prove anything and even if they could, they're more likely to just sweep it under the rug.

All this will do is make sure that the balls for the Super Bowl are more closely guarded and tested than any other game in NFL history, which isn't the worst thing in the world (for anyone).

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:57 pm

brian wrote: All this will do is make sure that the balls for the Super Bowl are more closely guarded and tested than any other game in NFL history, which isn't the worst thing in the world (for anyone).

Though I'm thinking doctoring the ball in anyway during the AFCC game would be difficult.

All of this is hooplah is based on equipment manager stating he thought the ball felt a little light...not sure why the refs, who handle the ball 100+ times a game wouldn't have noticed the same thing.

Brontoburglar · Post by **Brontoburglar** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:38 pm

brian wrote:Rosenberg's an idiot. I doubt Bronto was using that as proof of anything. The point was that the only people who seem to be getting upset about this are Pats fans somehow.

I wouldn't trust the NFL to do an investigation of what Goodell had for lunch, but unless they come up with anything (highly unlikely) it's just silly nonsense. The laughable part for me is Patriot fans somehow insisting that this besmirches Belichick's good name, to which...man, just come on.

It was proof of nothing. It was an instance of fighting fire with fire, or in this case, perceived slights with incredible and ridiculous defensiveness.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:06 pm

Brontoburglar wrote:
brian wrote:Rosenberg's an idiot. I doubt Bronto was using that as proof of anything. The point was that the only people who seem to be getting upset about this are Pats fans somehow.

I wouldn't trust the NFL to do an investigation of what Goodell had for lunch, but unless they come up with anything (highly unlikely) it's just silly nonsense. The laughable part for me is Patriot fans somehow insisting that this besmirches Belichick's good name, to which...man, just come on.
It was proof of nothing. It was an instance of fighting fire with fire, or in this case, perceived slights with incredible and ridiculous defensiveness.

No fanbase does "incredible and ridiculous defensiveness" quite like Patriots fans. As we discussed in an older thread, Patriots fans obsess over Peyton Manning--to the point where they consider him (and not an actual team) to be their biggest rival--due to their perception that Tom Brady, a guy universally considered to be a first-ballot HOF'er and one of the 5 best QBs ever, does not get the respect he deserves.

Post by **brian** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:09 pm

Joe K wrote:
Brontoburglar wrote:
brian wrote:Rosenberg's an idiot. I doubt Bronto was using that as proof of anything. The point was that the only people who seem to be getting upset about this are Pats fans somehow.

I wouldn't trust the NFL to do an investigation of what Goodell had for lunch, but unless they come up with anything (highly unlikely) it's just silly nonsense. The laughable part for me is Patriot fans somehow insisting that this besmirches Belichick's good name, to which...man, just come on.
It was proof of nothing. It was an instance of fighting fire with fire, or in this case, perceived slights with incredible and ridiculous defensiveness.
No fanbase does "incredible and ridiculous defensiveness" quite like Patriots fans. As we discussed in an older thread, Patriots fans obsess over Peyton Manning--to the point where they consider him (and not an actual team) to be their biggest rival--due to their perception that Tom Brady, a guy universally considered to be a first-ballot HOF'er and one of the 5 best QBs ever, does not get the respect he deserves.

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

EdRomero · Post by **EdRomero** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:10 pm

Brontoburglar wrote:
brian wrote:Rosenberg's an idiot. I doubt Bronto was using that as proof of anything. The point was that the only people who seem to be getting upset about this are Pats fans somehow.

I wouldn't trust the NFL to do an investigation of what Goodell had for lunch, but unless they come up with anything (highly unlikely) it's just silly nonsense. The laughable part for me is Patriot fans somehow insisting that this besmirches Belichick's good name, to which...man, just come on.
It was proof of nothing. It was an instance of fighting fire with fire, or in this case, perceived slights with incredible and ridiculous defensiveness.

Perceived slights? It was an FJM style take down of a ridiculous article written for a major website with real ridiculous slights -- "they invented a rule for Brady, they put up a video screen outside the stadium to help Belichick with replays." Show me the incredible and ridiculous defensiveness. I would think a journalist would want shoddy work in the industry to be exposed.

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:00 pm

Rush2112 wrote:Too big to post, so I'll link. This comic sums it up nicely.

Terrific. No doubt widely circulated among surviving Packers' fans. All twelve of them.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:27 pm

Rush2112 wrote:
brian wrote:Except "Spygate" was a real thing that the Patriots were actually punished for, not some figment of our collective imagination.
Except what the general public thinks they were fined/punished for is not what they were actually punished for.

What is it that you think they were punished for? I think it's because they were planting people on their opponent's sideline with digital surveillance equipment to obtain video of other teams' defensive play signals. Am I wrong?

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:53 pm

They were punished because they did this in an area outside the area that was designated by the NFL. The taping wasn't illegal, where they did it from was.

I really think this was done as an f u to the league because it's a stupid rule.. You can film but only from these 12 sq ft, the sherriff threw the book because it was the first thing he got to rule on.

According to the average fan they taped all practices, the film sessions and stole the oppositions playbook.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:10 pm

Summary: The reason this potential cheating is a non-issue is because most people think the Pats cheated one way the first time when in reality they cheated in a totally different way.

Post by **brian** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:15 pm

11 of the 12 football were under inflated by 2 psi, a not insignificant amount considering the rules call for 12.5-13.5 psi. Hope the Pats didn't want any first round draft picks anytime soon.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:26 am

"GOD FUCKING DAMMIT!!!" screamed Roger, certain that whatever decision he makes will be the wrong one.

Post by **brian** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:41 am

I have to imagine the NFL tested Indy's balls as well. If they were fine then that puts a lie to the "it was the weather" excuse. (Which could be somewhat valid.) There's a lot still that needs to be answered here.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:53 am

Either this is going down as a BIG FUCKING DEAL or this is a charade.

These balls were found out at halftime to be deflated. They were corrected. The Patriots rolled in the 2nd half. If they were cheating in the first half, they were doing it wrong.

Very possible that the inspection of the balls prior to the game had a "pencil whipped" inspection.

HOWEVAHHH...The way the NFL is reacting to this, according to the story on espn, makes it seem like this is serious. They aren't commenting and the adjectives describing this thing aren't favorable or to be taken as something to wave off.

Either the Patriots go "We provide the footballs; we don't inspect them" or someone within the organization gets pariahed and fired. Belichick and the organization has plausible deniability, but the stink that he called in the code red will linger to the general public and the taking heads.

rass · Post by **rass** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:51 am

Rush2112 wrote:I really think this was done as an f u to the league because it's a stupid rule.. You can film but only from these 12 sq ft, the sherriff threw the book because it was the first thing he got to rule on.

Jesus rush....

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:46 am

Legacy defending must be tiring work for Pats fans...

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:49 am

For a group of fans that have been AT LEAST as far as the AFC championship 9 times in the past 15 years, there is a lot of defensiveness and general victim syndrome.

And rush, no one is arguing that NE wasn't better than the Colts Sunday. That doesn't change the fact that they tried to skirt the rules. Better team, yes. Shadier team, also yes.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:21 am

"For a group of people who have the same skin color as the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, those protesters sure play the victim card."

(Let me know if that's what he comes back with)

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:31 am

So does this move it on Jerloma's sniff test from Ballghazi to #deflategate? Discuss.

(Clearly the story didn't take my advice and die so I'm steering into the skid now)

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:40 am

The argument that they would have won anyway is not invalid. I wouldn't even say it's irrelevant. Nobody thinks the Colts deserved to win that game. It's just that person engaging in those type of apologetics now faces another dilemma.

When you cheat, you are taking a risk. When you cheat after already having been caught in a huge cheating scandal, you're taking an even bigger risk. You risk embarrassing your organization, you risk draft picks, fines, you risk your reputation and your legacy. Nobody is going to take that risk for something that he doesn't think can help his team win and help significantly. If you think that's the case, you are explicitly saying that Bill Belichick...widely considered a genius...is a complete fucking idiot. I mean just quite possibly the biggest fucking moron you'll ever meet.

While I think he's a dick, I just don't think so little of him to think that he's a stupid person.

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:51 am

Jerloma wrote:The argument that they would have won anyway is not invalid. I wouldn't even say it's irrelevant. Nobody thinks the Colts deserved to win that game. It's just that person engaging in those type of apologetics now faces another dilemma.

When you cheat, you are taking a risk. When you cheat after already having been caught in a huge cheating scandal, you're taking an even bigger risk. You risk embarrassing your organization, you risk draft picks, fines, you risk your reputation and your legacy. Nobody is going to take that risk for something that he doesn't think can help his team win and help significantly. If you think that's the case, you are explicitly saying that Bill Belichick...widely considered a genius...is a complete fucking idiot. I mean just quite possibly the biggest fucking moron you'll ever meet.

While I think he's a dick, I just don't think so little of him to think that he's a stupid person.

This is the point that is being lost in everything. But that said, how much do you attribute to this being a relatively low-risk, high-reward strategy? The Pats balls were the only ones messed with, giving them an advantage. No one from the Colts save for a fumble or INT was going to have any chance at checking them. It's Foxboro in Winter, its rainshitting, everyone has cold hands, what are the chances anyone notices a slight decrease in ball pressure?

Point being, if you're going to cheat, this is a hell of a lot more thought out than the old "maybe I'll just put some pine tar under the brim of my hat, no one will notice that, harharhar".

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:55 am

Also, because some people are being asinine about this, I'll remind you all that as the biggest Colts fan on the board, I honestly have little to no problem with this.I don't understand why a team this dominant would do it, but I understand you take every advantage you can get. The Pats could have been playing with beach balls and still beat the Colts by double digits. A lot of people in this area are trying to spin it otherwise. The Colts got whipped and the Pats were the better team and anyone saying anything like "forfeiture of the AFC Championship" or "replay the game" need to be rounded up and summarily removed from the gene pool.

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:20 am

Take back the Bucs only SB win. Brad Johnson is a cheater.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:26 am

Every team should cheat because if they win big they can just say see it didn't matter and everyone moves on.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:26 am

Who the fuck cares, the Bucs rolled in that SB so it's a non-issue.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:27 am

"We didn't cheat because we needed to, we cheated just in case we needed it. We didn't. Look away."

(Edit: Dammit. What SL said.)

Post by **brian** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:48 am

Yeah, the other relevant point here is if you assume that the Pats doctored the balls for the AFC Championship, you know damn well they were doing it for quite a while. I very much doubt Belichick or Brady or whomever decided that this was a strategy they needed to employ for this specific game. So while it probably didn't matter in this game, it might very well have helped them to beat Baltimore (or some other important game).

The point isn't the result of Sunday's game, it's a general dismissive attitude towards the rules that they apparently don't think apply to them.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:57 am

brian wrote:Yeah, the other relevant point here is if you assume that the Pats doctored the balls for the AFC Championship, you know damn well they were doing it for quite a while. I very much doubt Belichick or Brady or whomever decided that this was a strategy they needed to employ for this specific game. So while it probably didn't matter in this game, it might very well have helped them to beat Baltimore (or some other important game).

The point isn't the result of Sunday's game, it's a general dismissive attitude towards the rules that they apparently don't think apply to them.

Exactly. You'd have to be pretty damn naive to think that they only broke out the cheating for a game against a team they've dominated in recent years.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:58 am

Like someone said, its risk reward. I dont see it as particularly unethical or any more so than pine tar or filing a baseball. I like that they do anything it takes in every conceivable way. Just makes them better than everyone else, not because of the edge but because of the diligence. They do that with everything and thats why they win. They do everything (including "cheating") better than everyone else save Seattle. The deal here is likely that the word got out to others in the league that they deflate the footballs at home and the Colts called them on it. Not because they noticed something, though Brady had to know, but probably because they got tipped off indirectly by an ex-pats staffer or other team that plays the Pats a lot. I have no issue with this and hope they continue, but they do need to get punished hard. The only way to fix it is if the risk of getting caught is higher so the shield probably should take a first rounder. But we know it wont stop Belichick. This stuff is baked into the way he runs a team. Most of it isnt even him, its probably something he got taught 30 years ago. Top to bottom. From the balls, to the plays to the player contracts and stadium... its just run very specifically with the sole intention of winning.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:59 am

Its different than scuffing because its taking place off the field. Closer to corking the bat, which is a pretty big deal.

Post by **brian** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:08 am

HaulCitgo wrote:Like someone said, its risk reward. I dont see it as particularly unethical or any more so than pine tar or filing a baseball. I like that they do anything it takes in every conceivable way. Just makes them better than everyone else, not because of the edge but because of the diligence. They do that with everything and thats why they win. They do everything (including "cheating") better than everyone else save Seattle. The deal here is likely that the word got out to others in the league that they deflate the footballs at home and the Colts called them on it. Not because they noticed something, though Brady had to know, but probably because they got tipped off indirectly by an ex-pats staffer or other team that plays the Pats a lot. I have no issue with this and hope they continue, but they do need to get punished hard. The only way to fix it is if the risk of getting caught is higher so the shield probably should take a first rounder. But we know it wont stop Belichick. This stuff is baked into the way he runs a team. Most of it isnt even him, its probably something he got taught 30 years ago. Top to bottom. From the balls, to the plays to the player contracts and stadium... its just run very specifically with the sole intention of winning.

I was thinking about it and I think the correct analogy is that Belichick is what's called in poker an "edge shooter". Someone who will employ any methods that could be considered in an ethical gray area including some that cross that line into being technically illegal. Not anything as brazen or shady as paying off refs or poisoning opposing players or something that would rightly get you banned for life or imprisoned, but you know -- shit like illegally taping opposing teams and deflating footballs.

The irony of edge shooters is that they really wouldn't self-identify as that, it's more like they have a pathological need to win and don't really care how they do it and honestly don't see anything wrong with what they're doing.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:18 am

More than pine tar but less than corking. Maybe if a team went to the amazon and cut especially hard trees to fashion into bats.

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:26 am

HaulCitgo wrote:More than pine tar but less than corking. Maybe if a team went to the amazon and cut especially hard trees to fashion into bats.

More than pine tar, less than corking, more than amazon hardbatz (patent pending), less than hiding Brady's Ugg boots before the game, but definitely more than feigning injuries to get defensive substitutions in.

This is getting more and more complicated.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:27 am

How is that less than corking? Its illegally modifying a legal instrument.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:31 am

It's still possible that the refs just didn't do their job right. If the Pats tried to get away with something and the refs approved those balls as they were, the Pats are in the clear as far as anyone should be concerned. This league hasn't exactly proven to be the most competent organization.

That being said...16-20 percent deflation in 11 out of 12 balls is pretty insane as far as pushing the limits. A corking comparison doesn't even do it justice.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:34 am

These comparisons just serve to show how much more personality baseball has than the NFL. It's fun that people try to doctor baseballs and bats and all that.

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:38 am

Jerloma wrote:It's still possible that the refs just didn't do their job right. If the Pats tried to get away with something and the refs approved those balls as they were, the Pats are in the clear as far as anyone should be concerned. This league hasn't exactly proven to be the most competent organization.

That being said...16-20 percent deflation in 11 out of 12 balls is pretty insane as far as pushing the limits. A corking comparison doesn't even do it justice.

That would be like corking 91.6% of all available bats. If you want a comparison.