More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer Tale

[rass]

cut to an hour later, a couple of us are at the bar (outside on the sidewalk tables) and of course we close the bar.

Hailey’s? Only bar I know in your town, and therefore the only one I’ve been to more than once (we did really like it the first time).

[elflaco2]

yep. Hailey's.

Woodstack has a decent bar as well but that's mainly a restaurant, although pre covid it was a happening place on weekends.

the member who walked out called me on saturday, spent half hour on the phone, she hung up crying as she just couldn't see herself walking away or working with us. seems she made up her mind. wrote an apology email yesterday to the board.
we're presenting at the council meeting tonight, then meeting up afterwards for the rumble, i mean discussion (no knives or chains pony boy) on how to move forward.

[rass]

Nice. I like it there.

If you haven't tried DiCosmo's yet I would recommend it based on our experiences at the original (and closing after this season - the owners want to retire and their daughter runs the Metuchen location) spot in Elizabeth.

Woodstack is apparently related somehow to our goto pizza place here in town.

[elflaco2]

yeah... we tried it.. like it.. although i prefer the italian ice off the carts (shaved ice block w syrup)
pricey for what it is, but i know the rent on that street is quite high.
which spot in your town?

[rass]

I think Glendale (Union) is the original pizzeria opened by the family that also runs Woodstack.

Last time we were at Hailey's (earlier this month) we debated going to Woodstack just because of that connection but the website looked a little fancier than we were feeling after spending the day at a soccer tournament so we went for sidewalk seating at the pub instead.

[HaulCitgo]

Kickoff. No final. Lots of points and shoulda coulda woulda.

[elflaco2]

the tale continues...
we use a training company... same one for past five years
this past summer we reset our programs.. our rec program is now called signature travel and our travel program is now called premier travel.. different leagues (SSYL and MNJYSA)
we also worked closely w the training company to remove several trainers and bring new ones.
all teams were finally advised last saturday of their trainers this season.
one team in particular did not like it.
about 25 emails, innumerable texts and calls...
bottom line, the trainer was fired based on our negative feedback.. we did not seek feedback, we either eperienced the issues as board members or was reported to us.. seems all teams but one didn't want him back. he was let go.
now the team's parents and parent coaches are up in arms. seems he was their rock. the sole reason for their kids growing to love soccer. the one shining light in covid world.
phone calls, emails, texts.. i expect someone to threaten legal action. pleas to have him reinstated. pleas to have him come back. finger pointing that we hated him (not true, actually liked him.. i coached two teams in the past w him)... but for all other teams and club functions, he was unreliable and wouldn't follow rules or do as told.. left us in the lurch many times. .thus our negative feedback.
but think of the children! (apparently a couple are in the spectrum so that is now being thrown at us as well) and the small town thing.
the board was solid against it. after a full two days of emails and phone calls .. there are cracks.

on the one hand.. yeah.. we can make it work.
on the other.. yet another exception, another precedent set.. complain enough and get what you want.

fuck. i should've quite when i had the chance... but no. ego wouldn't let me. didn't want to leave until all was honky dory under my watch. fuck.

[elflaco2]

After a 90+ minute discussion last night, the board voted against retaining the trainer in any capacity (and did confirm that he was no longer employed by the training outfit).
now the hard part of communicating it to the coaches (and the parents.)
it wasn't unanimous but all agreed to present a united front when discussing the matter going forward (hopefully not discussing too long)

phew.

[rass]

sounds fun

[The Sybian]

Thank you for these reminders. When I start to missing coaching my daughter's team, your stories, and my coaching partner's stories always remind me of the reality of all the bullshit beyond the joy teaching a group of kids how to play.

[elflaco2]

i enjoy coaching. coached a u19 team in the spring (my son was supposed to play but he didn't) - enjoyable. no parent bs. was fortunate as a coach over the years not to deal with crap. w the kid playing club, we just go along and even though we have a crazy coach its a good team and set of parents.
the board? the drama always centers around team make up and parents. and now that we're joined up w the rec org... we have oh.. 700 kids? fun, fun.

[wlu_lax6]

Things you learn at your coaches kickoff meeting:

So we have had this field our club owned. It was a fantastic bermuda grass field. Fantastic field. It was overtaken by the turf fields we had. Just got closed down too often for rain. So they generally used if to the 7 v 7 and 9 v 9 sized games (2 fields going across). So they stopped keeping it up to top shape. But they had plans to turn it to turf. It is about a $2M project. The county got a bond for part of it. But our club soccer team had to raise the money for most. I saw something about a "generous parent" helping get it done. Well apparently that generous parent got the UAE to pay for it. Which is great because the ribbon cutting will be presented by Leidos

also we get Mojo (some free training planning app)

[HaulCitgo]

Boy practicing now avoiding major storm cells on turf and girl got cancelled hours earlier on grass. Don't blame em. His knees feel it. The HS turf is flatter than the county park turf.

[The Sybian]

Despite playing at an academy 30+ minutes away with 3 practices a week and weekend games, my daughter is insisting on playing for the middle school team. We told her she isn't doubling up practices, so she can go to at most 2 practices/games a week, and the school team practices 5 days. She talked to the coach and he said he would take her whatever days she is available, not to worry about it. I'm concerned it's too much on top of school work, wanting a social life, etc... I'm also concerned with over training. Then there is the factor of taking game time from kids who are showing up 5 days a week and losing time to a kid who pops in when she can. I'm against her doing this, but she really wants to play with her friends. I think the bigger deal is playing with the girls a year older, as she played travel with them a couple years ago. I've heard the 8th grade girls playing at clubs aren't playing school, but who knows. Due to COVID, middle school did not have soccer last year. Coach is holding a meeting with interested students today, holding tryouts next week, so we'll see what she says after the meeting.

[wlu_lax6]

Despite playing at an academy 30+ minutes away with 3 practices a week and weekend games, my daughter is insisting on playing for the middle school team. We told her she isn't doubling up practices, so she can go to at most 2 practices/games a week, and the school team practices 5 days. She talked to the coach and he said he would take her whatever days she is available, not to worry about it. I'm concerned it's too much on top of school work, wanting a social life, etc... I'm also concerned with over training. Then there is the factor of taking game time from kids who are showing up 5 days a week and losing time to a kid who pops in when she can. I'm against her doing this, but she really wants to play with her friends. I think the bigger deal is playing with the girls a year older, as she played travel with them a couple years ago. I've heard the 8th grade girls playing at clubs aren't playing school, but who knows. Due to COVID, middle school did not have soccer last year. Coach is holding a meeting with interested students today, holding tryouts next week, so we'll see what she says after the meeting.

The old US Development Academy basically prevented this. However, they found lots of kids wanted to play games for their school. There is something for getting a letter, playing in front of friends, etc. Club is generally better soccer but nobody is showing up to watch the ECLN and travel games. It really does put the kids and coaches in bad spots. Does the coach (physics teacher) bench Johnny All Star because he had club practice instead of the high school one? Is that fair when your kids want to win the district/conference/state/etc but you bench Jenny NWSL because of competing teams. We never had this problem growing up. I played both high level lacrosse and soccer year round. But club was not a full time job. M-F was in season sport, Sat/Sun were for the off season sport. Because there is no offseason for these kids it really does not give them these options. College Coaches speak out of both sides of their mouth too. They talk about kids playing multiple sports but build relationships with these full time clubs and have moved recruiting influence from high school coaches to club coaches/tournament/showcase operators.

[The Sybian]

Despite playing at an academy 30+ minutes away with 3 practices a week and weekend games, my daughter is insisting on playing for the middle school team. We told her she isn't doubling up practices, so she can go to at most 2 practices/games a week, and the school team practices 5 days. She talked to the coach and he said he would take her whatever days she is available, not to worry about it. I'm concerned it's too much on top of school work, wanting a social life, etc... I'm also concerned with over training. Then there is the factor of taking game time from kids who are showing up 5 days a week and losing time to a kid who pops in when she can. I'm against her doing this, but she really wants to play with her friends. I think the bigger deal is playing with the girls a year older, as she played travel with them a couple years ago. I've heard the 8th grade girls playing at clubs aren't playing school, but who knows. Due to COVID, middle school did not have soccer last year. Coach is holding a meeting with interested students today, holding tryouts next week, so we'll see what she says after the meeting.

The old US Development Academy basically prevented this. However, they found lots of kids wanted to play games for their school. There is something for getting a letter, playing in front of friends, etc. Club is generally better soccer but nobody is showing up to watch the ECLN and travel games. It really does put the kids and coaches in bad spots. Does the coach (physics teacher) bench Johnny All Star because he had club practice instead of the high school one? Is that fair when your kids want to win the district/conference/state/etc but you bench Jenny NWSL because of competing teams. We never had this problem growing up. I played both high level lacrosse and soccer year round. But club was not a full time job. M-F was in season sport, Sat/Sun were for the off season sport. Because there is no offseason for these kids it really does not give them these options. College Coaches speak out of both sides of their mouth too. They talk about kids playing multiple sports but build relationships with these full time clubs and have moved recruiting influence from high school coaches to club coaches/tournament/showcase operators.

My daughter's club plays in the GA, which is the girl's division of what used to be the Development Academy. When you get to high school age, I don't think they currently allow kids to play varsity, but the rule for middle school ages is you can play for your school team, but you have to prioritize the club first, at all times. If you have a conflict between a school championship game and a club practice, go to club. They encourage kids not to play for school due to injury risk.

Talking to other parents, most of whom live near the club, they are going to let them double practice as the club practices are at 7:30. With my additional 1 hour commute, I want my daughter to have time to do homework and relax, so I'm not letting her do doubles. Not sure if I will let her play a game at school then practice. We'll see how it goes. When they get to HS, I think only the "A" team is banned from school. The lower teams play EDP, so no fall season starting at U15, so they can play school. At least that's what other clubs seem to do. Varsity I'll figure out when she gets there.

And she just came home, coach held a meeting at school. Looks like she is missing 2 of 3 tryouts, that will set the tone!

[HaulCitgo]

Overtraining is real. I'm learning to defer to the kid. Playing with older players not an issue. Your post just made me axe an odp tryout for kid tonight. 4/5x events a week a struggle for him physically. Maybe find a closer club team next year if she wants to play in school?

[duff]

It saddens me that the emphasis is on the club and not the school. I get the kids are going to get better training and such at the club, but it just seems so backwards to me that school sports aren't first and foremost. Everything changes. I know baseball/softball is like that here, and they can only play during the warmer months, but tons of training at the indoor facilities. Puts playing basketball or wrestling out the window for anyone that wants to travel. Have to put in the time at the training sessions. I know some volleyball kids like that too.

[A_B]

It saddens me that the emphasis is on the club and not the school. I get the kids are going to get better training and such at the club, but it just seems so backwards to me that school sports aren't first and foremost. Everything changes. I know baseball/softball is like that here, and they can only play during the warmer months, but tons of training at the indoor facilities. Puts playing basketball or wrestling out the window for anyone that wants to travel. Have to put in the time at the training sessions. I know some volleyball kids like that too.

Club volleyball here starts after school volleyball is done. Most of the club coaches try to do training sessions with each team to recruit but it's not usually very formal. So the school season is just to keep in shape for the club season, basically.

[Nonlinear FC]

It's a real conundrum.

First, there has been this growing tension for decades now:

- Forcing kids to pick one sport
- Playing all year round
- Discouraging playing for your school team.

There are valid reasons, or at least easily defensible ones, for each of those arguments.

The problem, and what is very rarely discussed, is the obvious conflict of interest or not so hidden driver behind this: $$$$$. I won't belabor, because it's pretty obvious, but each of those points I threw out can also very easily be tied back to the clubs desire to drain as much of your cash as humanly possible.

And it doesn't come close to stopping with the clubs... I've you've ever been a coach, you know the amount of spam you're going to get from tournaments, trainers and everyone else that has their finger in the pie of club sports in America.

[The Sybian]

Overtraining is real. I'm learning to defer to the kid. Playing with older players not an issue. Your post just made me axe an odp tryout for kid tonight. 4/5x events a week a struggle for him physically. Maybe find a closer club team next year if she wants to play in school?

I would love to find a closer club, but there aren't any at this level. There are a bunch of big soccer towns surrounding me, but no clubs within 30 minutes. If she isn't on the GA team or playing ECNL, we might put her on a closer club at a lower level so she can play varsity, but we have a few years to figure that out and see how she likes this club and where she fits in. We moved her in part to avoid travel, if she stayed at her previous team she was on ECNL travel. There are only 2 teams in NJ in ECNL, so a one-off league games are in MD, DE, and PA. Her former team is playing three games in MD in the first 3 weeks, so traveling 4 hours to a play a one hour game, then drive back 4 hours. Then third week they play 2 games in MD, so they have to stay over. Crazy travel at this age IMO. GA isn't much better.

It saddens me that the emphasis is on the club and not the school. I get the kids are going to get better training and such at the club, but it just seems so backwards to me that school sports aren't first and foremost. Everything changes. I know baseball/softball is like that here, and they can only play during the warmer months, but tons of training at the indoor facilities. Puts playing basketball or wrestling out the window for anyone that wants to travel. Have to put in the time at the training sessions. I know some volleyball kids like that too.

You sound like my wife. I've been telling her for years that school soccer isn't what it used to be, and she finally realizes it, but still glorifies the varsity team in her mind. She really wants my daughter to play varsity, but if she is good enough for college scouts to look at her, school is derailing it. At this point I'm not banking on soccer getting her into a school. She has the ability and awareness, but I don't think she has the drive to push herself. We'll see. Her new team is incredibly physical and aggressive, so I'm hoping she steps up that aspect of her game.

School soccer can't come close to competing with club. My town's varsity coach has a great reputation and won a state championship 2 or 3 years ago, but he is a social studies teacher (no offense, Cerrano) and only has the team for a few months a year. Even the lowest level of travel teams have private trainers who went through all sorts of certifications in European coaching schools. Many of them played professionally. My daughter lost her trainer at the town travel team when he took a job at Man City. Her current club, almost every coach worked at youth academies in English clubs before moving to the US. Her current coach was an Arsenal Academy player and played for England at youth levels. More than anything, I'm blown away by his emotional intelligence and ability to connect with kids as a team and on an individual level. Not to mention, the pool clubs are pulling from is so much better than any HS. Some of her teammates are traveling an hour from the opposite direction to get to practices, so 90 minutes from me. I know what the pool will be at the HS, it's the girls she played travel with 4 years ago. And for middle school, there are some girls trying out who have never played before. It's not pretty.

ETA: I feel like there is a comparison between school and club and professional club and national team. Youth clubs play a much more technical and skilled game. When I watch varsity, it's much more physical, blasting long balls, plowing through defenders rather than passing and beating players with skill.

[HaulCitgo]

Opportunities are better here. Think 5 ecnl clubs in Atlanta and one club has two teams and then theres Atlanta united which is the standard mostly. MLS Next and GA have about 5-6 more clubs. More hit and miss but their best teams are probably strongest in the state. Don't really need to drive but lots do. Kind of wherever they get a coach interested cause it can be tough to make 1s.

[The Sybian]

Opportunities are better here. Think 5 ecnl clubs in Atlanta and one club has two teams and then theres Atlanta united which is the standard mostly. MLS Next and GA have about 5-6 more clubs. More hit and miss but their best teams are probably strongest in the state. Don't really need to drive but lots do. Kind of wherever they get a coach interested cause it can be tough to make 1s.

My nephews play at NASA/Top Hat, I think they have to play teams in South Carolina, Tennessee and maybe Alabama for league games. She was telling me a bunch of parents on the B team were upset their kids didn't get A, so they all moved to a worse ECNL team. Like my sister said, you are on an equally skilled team, but now you have to travel all over the place to get your ass kicked by much better teams. What's the point?

[HaulCitgo]

If I ever see the guy that changed the age cutoff I'm gonna hit the fucker in the head with a hammer. Then I'll drive to the home Depot and buy a sledge hammer and beat whats left of his brain through the floorboards.

Needless to say it didn't go well this morning.

[wlu_lax6]

If I ever see the guy that changed the age cutoff I'm gonna hit the fucker in the head with a hammer. Then I'll drive to the home Depot and buy a sledge hammer and beat whats left of his brain through the floorboards.

Needless to say it didn't go well this morning.

In our league the first weekend is usually a intraclub game. We were heavy underdogs. The other u&16 older team (we have 4 u16 teams) had some solid kids who dropped down from higher level teams (to not have conflicts during the high school season). Well my team commuted to defense and hard tackling. 1-0 win.

[HaulCitgo]

Sounds like the kids game. He basically got bullied off the midfield in the first half. Made him less willing. Ref kept talking to talking to talking to but no yellows. Got moved outside and it was easier on him but he's quick enough but not fast enough. Hopefully by U16 or so will even out some.

Something like 4-15-1 last year so brought in bigger more skilled players. One in particular appears clearly too old. New kids are good but mostly coming from distance and I doubt they stick for the next several years. continuity from the academy program is completely gone in two years. only 3 left on his team. It shows. Couple of the new kids are dribble first and shoot hard types. Kid said team has run by but league play started and wasn't able to get breakaways.

Last year size five ball physics let them get away with a small goalie. Super quick off his line and basically kept them in games where they struggled to keep up. Might have been their MVP. Two free kick goals yesterday and wonder if inside half is gonna be a free look at the top.

[HaulCitgo]

Just so happens I'm at my daughter's track workouts and the team an age group up and level below is playing. Same goalie out there. Not sure what happened to their goalie but he's doing his thing as usual. Flying off the line to put out fires.

[The Sybian]

My daughter played her first middle school game today. Such a mixed bag. It was so cool at the start. The team is mostly 8th graders, she is in 7th, but she played travel with most of the 8th graders, and then they left travel for clubs the following year. All the parents were acting like it was a reunion, which was really cool. I assistant coached the 8th graders and coached the 7th graders for their first 3 or 4 years of travel. Even one of the non-travel girls I coached in rec when she was in 2nd grade. That part was really cool for me, seeing them grown up and playing together again, and I think the girls are all excited to play together.

On the flip side, of the 09 travel team (7th grade), only 4 are playing, and they are the 4 worst girls. Throw in a random girl who looks like 5th grader and I don't think has ever played soccer before, and it's a recipe for disaster. A couple of the 8th graders are ECNL and Girls Academy players, and absolutely fantastic. The other team was horrendous, but had one girl who was better than anyone on my daughter's team.

The great player got fed up and turned into an absolute hazard. On one play, my daughter was right back. The girl intentionally tripped our CB, no call. My daughter ran across and knocked the ball out. A good 3 seconds after the clearance, the girl came in with a two-footed studs up slide tackle from behind. My daughter's legs buckled and she flew back and landed on her head and back. She was crumpled in a heap and not moving. I saw the ref didn't even see it, so I jumped out of my chair screaming that there was a player down. Instead of checking on her, he ran off the field and screamed at me that "you can't talk to the ref! People like you are why they can't get enough refs to do kids games." He asked me if I wanted to ref the game, fortunately I realized what would happen if I continued so I sat down and shut up. 3 or 4 other fathers were still yelling at him to get back on the field and attend to the game. About a minute later, our defender knocked the ball away from the same girl, and she intentionally hauled off with an elbow to the side of the defenders head, she crumpled. 10 parents went nuts screaming at the ref. He called the foul, but ran over to the sidelines screaming at the parents and escalating the argument. He kept saying "I called the foul so shut up." I still haven't seen a single card issued in a game my daughter played, but that girl deserved straight red twice in a minute. Ref didn't say a word to her, just yelled at the parents.

Anyways, my point on that rant, I'm wondering if it's worth letting my daughter play in these games. I think the vast gap in skill levels is a major problem, and the less skilled players will resort to dirty play to stop the better players. Club coach said the girls can play school, but be aware there are a lot more injuries in school games. Now I see why. She is only going two days a week, and they have practice or games 5 days. The coach told them he is a basketball coach, not soccer, so he doesn't teach them much. Some of the parents were saying a couple of the club team 8th graders run the practices. They were saying that more with pride in the girls than complaining.

[govmentchedda]

Getting angry over here just reading that.

[tennbengal]

Yeah. I think you would have been justified getting run. I got run from one JV game for something similar with a ref who was letting muggings and assaults go.

[Nonlinear FC]

Middle school soccer is an absolute and complete waste of your daughter's time. Only thing you should check on, if possible, is to figure out if the high school coach pays any attention to his feeder schools.

If the answer is "sort of, but not really" I'd strongly consider pulling her. The reason they can't find refs is that it's a black hole in the entire system. No one cares about middle school soccer, including the refs.

[HaulCitgo]

0-7 today. Other team scored inside the box twice. Once the center back scored from 5-10 yds inside half. Other team had 15 kids all the size of the only right sized kid on sons team. They do have one kid but he's 15-16 and son says he's playing again with older team so club must have noticed. Kid got on the ball maybe 10 times in 70 mins. Didn't do much with any of the 10. Game looked a little fast for him. Usually he's the one changing pace.

Did play a lot though. Somehow the team looked ok. Some hard work defending first half and similar possession after save after save after save.

My kid needs to play with the age below. Rules won't even let him get time on the team below. I'd prefer a 9v9 field too. And he's got good speed and strength.

He won't have a team next spring so we'll find out first hand about middle school soccer (spring here so can't play baseball). Figure the tables will turn on size and strength but then it's the opposite problem.

[The Sybian]

Middle school soccer is an absolute and complete waste of your daughter's time. Only thing you should check on, if possible, is to figure out if the high school coach pays any attention to his feeder schools.

If the answer is "sort of, but not really" I'd strongly consider pulling her. The reason they can't find refs is that it's a black hole in the entire system. No one cares about middle school soccer, including the refs.

Completely agree on the waste of time from a soccer perspective, but it's more for social aspects than soccer. We aren't letting her go to practice or games on club practice days, even though club practice isn't until 7:30.

As for the varsity coach, my daughter plastered herself on his radar already. She had him for social studies last year. First day, he said he was a Liverpool fan, so my daughter walks out the door past him and mutters "boo, Liverpool." He asked what team she likes, so he made fun of Arsenal to her all year. She asked me for ammo to fight back, but as Arsenal fans, we got nothing. He asked her for updates on her club games every Monday, and she went to watch several varsity games and he always said hi to her and talked about the game with her the next day in class. This summer she got her locker assignment and was all excited because it's next to the coach's classroom. She said the first day he ran over and gave her a hug, and she stops in to talk every day. Kid knows how to play the game.

Our town has one middle school, but we combine with another town for high school. I think our town has about triple the amount of students. Assuming nothing drastic changes, my daughter's varsity years will a bit weird. The year ahead of her has some really talented kids and her Junior year should be a fantastic team. Their school is historically good and won the State Championship a few years ago, and I think another one a few years before that. My daughter's class will be really weak. There was one great player, but she just moved. The year behind her has some really strong players. About half of her original travel team were late birthdays so a grade behind, and a couple stars a year younger.

[HaulCitgo]

8 kids yesterday. Core worked hard but can't play with 8. Coach cancelled optional tonight. Two games this weekend. Lot of games left.

[wlu_lax6]

So this is a long read. But what caught my attention is the local angle. The guy mentioned coaches our rival high school varsity team and the fields and clubs are our neighbor (Annandale is a rival of our club and where Bill Hamid played).
https://www.espn.com/soccer/united-stat ... top-talent

[HaulCitgo]

1-9 since preseason. 0-3 and 0-4 this weekend. Theyve got a really good team with various talented kids in different spots. Not good enough obviously. Coach has started using league games as possession drills. Heads are up. Dads are down. Two more tournaments and makeups into second week of December. Long season.

[wlu_lax6]

May have just ended my coaching days with a tournament championship. My son is going to try to row this spring (soccer is a spring sport in VA public schools). Went 2-2-0 yesterday in the preliminary rounds. Seeded 3 for bracket play (1 & 2 guy byes into the semis). Well team connected together today. In the first game a 6-0 drubbing of a team we did not play in the prelim round. Then a 2-1 win over a team that beat us 1-0 yesterday (on a terrible back pass muff by our goalie). We scored a great goal. They came back to have a kid take a dive and earn a PK. But with 2 minutes to play we scored on a corner (nice header). Then in the finals we scored an Olimpico with 4 minutes to play against a team that beat us 3-1 in the opener of the preliminary.

[HaulCitgo]

Great times I know. Lost on penalties in final in my house. Down feelings now but confidence all weekend. One more crack in December. Will miss these weekends.

[HaulCitgo]

Left house at 6:30 to watch others kids play because kid ran a timed mile in PE with no warmup or running shoes. Music teacher out so send em to PE... Grrrr

[HaulCitgo]

Boy made a final today (tournament knockout style so only 3 games). Impressed the coach by dominating in futsal and moved back to 10 and got two goals yesterday. Same number as he had in past 18 months chasing wingers and never making it into the offensive half. Girl scored points in her first varsity meet yesterday too. Third tournament weekend in a row. At least the first was short sided. Constant struggle with overuse pain. Almost like kids shouldn't be playing this much :-). Sure is fun though.