The Swamp

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:33 am**

No not me....just making the general comment....

I have a really good friend from sailing. Great woman, super fun, cool, pretty, etc.

She got married on New Years Eve. I didn't know her new husband super well, but we'd hung out a few times. Nice guy, from Regina, Canada. Told some great stories about having to retrieve shopping carts from the parking lot of the grocery store where he worked as a teenager when it was -20 degrees.

Anyways, awesome fun wedding. Just a completely great time. And both the bride and groom were ecstatically happy, and everyone there was over the moon happy for the both of them.

And then....2 weeks ago....he hung himself in their garage while she was at the store. Memorial Service is tomorrow.

My friend had confided in me about a year ago that he had depression issues, stemming from being abused as a kid. But she had said that he had done a lot of work dealing with it, and had made great progress.

I haven't spoken with her....I've tried, but she's just not ready yet.

Anyways, sorry for the downer....just needed to vent....

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:58 am**

DaveInSeattle wrote:No not me....just making the general comment....

I have a really good friend from sailing. Great woman, super fun, cool, pretty, etc.

She got married on New Years Eve. I didn't know her new husband super well, but we'd hung out a few times. Nice guy, from Regina, Canada. Told some great stories about having to retrieve shopping carts from the parking lot of the grocery store where he worked as a teenager when it was -20 degrees.

Anyways, awesome fun wedding. Just a completely great time. And both the bride and groom were ecstatically happy, and everyone there was over the moon happy for the both of them.

And then....2 weeks ago....he hung himself in their garage while she was at the store. Memorial Service is tomorrow.

My friend had confided in me about a year ago that he had depression issues, stemming from being abused as a kid. But she had said that he had done a lot of work dealing with it, and had made great progress.

I haven't spoken with her....I've tried, but she's just not ready yet.

Anyways, sorry for the downer....just needed to vent....

Jebus, really sorry to hear that. I hope your friend doesn't blame herself.

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:30 pm**

The Sybian wrote:
DaveInSeattle wrote:No not me....just making the general comment....

I have a really good friend from sailing. Great woman, super fun, cool, pretty, etc.

She got married on New Years Eve. I didn't know her new husband super well, but we'd hung out a few times. Nice guy, from Regina, Canada. Told some great stories about having to retrieve shopping carts from the parking lot of the grocery store where he worked as a teenager when it was -20 degrees.

Anyways, awesome fun wedding. Just a completely great time. And both the bride and groom were ecstatically happy, and everyone there was over the moon happy for the both of them.

And then....2 weeks ago....he hung himself in their garage while she was at the store. Memorial Service is tomorrow.

My friend had confided in me about a year ago that he had depression issues, stemming from being abused as a kid. But she had said that he had done a lot of work dealing with it, and had made great progress.

I haven't spoken with her....I've tried, but she's just not ready yet.

Anyways, sorry for the downer....just needed to vent....
Jebus, really sorry to hear that. I hope your friend doesn't blame herself.

Thanks....yeah, I hope not either. But when you look at it, how can she not? Even though its clearly not her "fault", the normal human reaction would be to take that blame on yourself.

I'm just hoping she finds herself a good therapist/counselor going forward. Because she'll need it....

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:42 pm**

I'm sorry for your friend. I hope that she will be able to process this kind of trauma.

On a side note, I just am not capable of understanding suicide. I'd go through the feelings it inspires, but I'm not sure this is an appropriate thread to derail.

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:13 pm**

devilfluff wrote:I'm sorry for your friend. I hope that she will be able to process this kind of trauma.

On a side note, I just am not capable of understanding suicide. I'd go through the feelings it inspires, but I'm not sure this is an appropriate thread to derail.

Same, I hope your friend can see that she gave him that bit of joy in the big picture of his condition.
I used to not understand suicide or depression at all but the more people I encounter, the more I understand that depression is a nearly uncontrollable condition. From the outside, it could seem a person has everything but there are demons inside.

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:06 pm**

degenerasian wrote:
devilfluff wrote:I'm sorry for your friend. I hope that she will be able to process this kind of trauma.

On a side note, I just am not capable of understanding suicide. I'd go through the feelings it inspires, but I'm not sure this is an appropriate thread to derail.

Same, I hope your friend can see that she gave him that bit of joy in the big picture of his condition.
I used to not understand suicide or depression at all but the more people I encounter, the more I understand that depression is a nearly uncontrollable condition. From the outside, it could seem a person has everything but there are demons inside.

I was talking with a coworker about this yesterday. He told me he had dealt with depression for most of his adult life, including being a major raging alcoholic for 40 years. He said the thing people don't understand is that you are trying to fix a damaged mind.....by using that same damaged mind. Like trying to fix a broken tool using a broken tool.

He also said part of the problem is the stigma that's attached to mental health issues, or with getting help for mental health issues. He said he views his process, including being sober for 11 years now, as, as he put it, "a fucking badge of honor".

That said....I don't understand suicide either. Just trying to picture getting to the point where it looks like that's the only option or the way out.

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:31 pm**

In my observation, there are many common causes. Three come to mind. Chronic, untreatable pain. Loss of social relationships. Progressive, incurable medical ailments.

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:36 pm**

DaveInSeattle wrote:
degenerasian wrote:
devilfluff wrote:I'm sorry for your friend. I hope that she will be able to process this kind of trauma.

On a side note, I just am not capable of understanding suicide. I'd go through the feelings it inspires, but I'm not sure this is an appropriate thread to derail.

Same, I hope your friend can see that she gave him that bit of joy in the big picture of his condition.
I used to not understand suicide or depression at all but the more people I encounter, the more I understand that depression is a nearly uncontrollable condition. From the outside, it could seem a person has everything but there are demons inside.
I was talking with a coworker about this yesterday. He told me he had dealt with depression for most of his adult life, including being a major raging alcoholic for 40 years. He said the thing people don't understand is that you are trying to fix a damaged mind.....by using that same damaged mind. Like trying to fix a broken tool using a broken tool.

He also said part of the problem is the stigma that's attached to mental health issues, or with getting help for mental health issues. He said he views his process, including being sober for 11 years now, as, as he put it, "a fucking badge of honor".

That said....I don't understand suicide either. Just trying to picture getting to the point where it looks like that's the only option or the way out.

Sorry if I am stepping on your thread, DiS, but to Fluff's point, I think it could be important to discuss it here. Who knows, it could help save a friend or loved one's life to better understand. First, I love DiS' coworker's comment. Totally true, and I think the most common way for someone to fix their diseased brain is through alcohol and drugs, and I'm not talking about antidepressants. Even while doing it, you know you are ultimately making it worse, but it stops the pain or gets you so fucking blotto you can't think. Either way, it works.

The shift away from a stigma towards depression and other mental illnesses is incredibly important. I thank Tipper Gore for that. Part of depression is a self-inflicted stigmatization. For years i was terrified of anyone finding out, and I still am not comfortable telling anyone in real life, even if they are talking about their depression. That is the main reason I discuss it here. It took me 7 or 8 years to finally pick up the phone and make an appointment. When I did make the first call, it took me an hour of sitting on the floor trying to force myself to make the call. Not to mention, months of trying to dial and call before i finally did. It took me a couple of weeks to tell my parents. I have a great, close relationship with them, but it was an insurmountable wall to make that call.

As for suicide, you can't look at it with rational logic. If you put your healthy thought processes into the situation, it makes no sense. Many people with depression and other mental illnesses have severe negative or damaging thoughts or impulses. When stuck in a rut of negative thoughts bombarding your brain, you believe them. Maybe you genuinely believe you are fucked up and your family and friends are better without you. When thoughts like this hit, they are much stronger than the thoughts you have when healthy. I can't explain it. I know this is a hell of a lot worse in schizophrenics and other illnesses. The disease takes over your brain and feeds a lot of shit that warps your world view.

Then there is the aspect that when things are really bad, you feel 100% positive that it will never get better. Again, rational thought is pushed out by diseased thoughts. And the diseased thoughts and feelings are so much stronger than healthy or rational thoughts and feelings. And while this is happening, the constant thought, for me anyways, is "if I feel lows so powerfully and feel nothing during the good times, what is the point of enduring the pain?"

I went through a suicidal period in law school, and there were moments where I almost tried without conscious thought. At one T station in particular, the train came in really fast, and I would have an overwhelming impulse to jump in front of it. It got to the point where I would have to walk to the wall away from the track and turn my back to the train. My brain would constantly switch to planning out scenarios, but I would always get hung up on what it would do to the person who found me. I couldn't do that to my roommate, so I would try to come up with scenarios that wouldn't fuck up the person who found me. These thoughts were different from rational thoughts, in that I couldn't control them. They would overtake the rational brain, and were a stronger, deeper type of thought. Again, probably makes no sense to anyone who has never experienced this. I totally understand a rational, healthy person not being able to comprehend how someone could kill themself, but the act doesn't come from a rational place. And if I did jump in front of a train, it wouldn't have even been a decision, but an impulse I couldn't overcome. Even in a hanging or other act that takes time to perform, it may not be a decision in the normal sense. I'm sure it is sometimes, but many times it probably isn't. And when someone is suicidal, the thought of suicide (suicidal ideation) is frequent, vivd, and come out of nowhere. It is like a tv scene pops into your head of you running in front of a bus.

Fluff, I genuinely appreciate your comment. I get pissed when people say suicide is a selfish act, but they can't know the frame of mind a suicidal person is in. It often isn't a decision at all, but a subconscious impulsive act.

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:50 pm**

Syb, that's a really good description of suicide as an impluse that follows from the depressive state. Anyone who's experiencing something like this, or close to someone who is, can benefit from having this understanding. Without it, depressive suicide just seems bizarre and not human. Reading the road map won't eliminate what's going on. But making the trip a bit easier to comprehend might give someone an easier way to get help. Feeling like it's just something that is happening uniquely to you has to help create a negative spiral.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:22 am**

We all have our own crosses to bear. My mental issues are on the other side of the spectrum and tend more towards the sociopathic side(aggression, lack of empathy, lack of guilt) and stoicism. So I know intellectually that I can't comprehend the mental processes of people who are carrying that weight.

It is immensely frustrating for me to watch people struggle with depressive issues. I have a number of family members who fight the fight(Mother, Mother in Law, Brother in Law, grandmother), and I have difficulty not just telling them to "Man up" and "Get over it". I don't. Partly, because I know how useless it would be, and partly because I try not to be an asshole. But that is how my brain works. Got knocked down? Get up. Make that next step. Keep moving forward. Can't go forward? Find a way around.

Yes, I know it is an over-simplification.

I've seen the leftovers from suicides. They ain't pretty. Survivors have a lot to deal with, its closest parallel is PTSD. It's trauma, no bullshit.

It touches that angry spot in my head. The primal part that wants to lash out. But what can you do, hit a corpse? I'm not really equipped to console the survivors...

Sorry for the ramblings. Trying to put these kind of thoughts or feelings into nice organized text isn't really my strongest suit.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:27 am**

Well said, Fluff. I think your instinct is really normal, and what I used to kick myself for. And I've certainly had friends tell me to get over it. For the most part, I think most of my close friends would be very surprised to learn of my depression. My law school roommate certainly was, and he was one of my closest friends in undergrad for 4 years prior to living together for 3 years.

Fortunately I was very conscious of what I would leave my parents and friends to deal with. I thought about that all the time. Now that I have kids and a wife, I could never even consider it.

A lot of times, my depression is worse when my life is in good shape. No idea why. For me, depression is a chemical imbalance, so except for dire situations, it often isn't related to external factors. I tend to block out emotions and stress, which ends up manifesting in depression, but OTOH, when I am at my busiest at work, I am feeling better. I think being more productive lifts my mood, and when things are slow at work, I tend to fall behind.

Sorry for going off course here. Putting this shit into words actually helps me process it. Otherwise,I totally ignore and suppress my emotions.

Posted: **Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:16 pm**

El Dorado High School Teacher Hangs Self for Her First-Period Students to Find

This sounds like something from an opening to the old HBO series Six Feet Under: students at El Dorado High School in Placentia arrived to their first-period class this morning to find their teacher had hung herself.

Orange County Fire Authority paramedics got the 9-1-1 call about 8:40 a.m. to treat the unidentified teacher, who students and another instructor managed to get down to the floor, according to OCFA spokesman Capt. Steve Concialdi.

Unfortunately, paramedics could not revive her and pronounced her dead at the scene.

The teacher's students were sent home for the rest of the day, but classes continue elsewhere on campus at 1651 Valencia Ave., where grief counselors have been sent to help console the grieving, according to police.

Posted: **Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:40 pm**

Jesus Christ. What a fucking awful thing to do.

Posted: **Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:43 pm**

Shirley wrote:Jesus Christ. What a fucking awful thing to do.

That'll teach those little bastards.

Posted: **Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:27 am**

University at Buffalo study links marijuana use to effective treatment of depression. If only they did this study 20 years ago... Smoking pot actually made it a lot worse for me, but the article did say depression related to stress and PTSD.

Posted: **Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:58 pm**

Smoking pot made depression much worse for me too. Especially in contrast to alcohol, which in the short run (a couple of hours) made depressed feelings go away or at least weaken. (Of course, intermediate and long run alcohol also made it worse.)

Posted: **Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:08 pm**

Thanks for all the responses to this. Like I said, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around all of this.

The memorial service was nice. My friend is holding up a lot better then I expected, given the circumstances. And it was really nice to see the Seattle sailing community really come out to rally around her and support her.

My GF and I were talking afterwards, and her thinking is that whatever the demons were that were tormenting him, he must have thought "getting married will fix this"...and then when it didn't....

I don't know...just a tough thing...

Posted: **Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:53 pm**

A co-worker of mine lost her son to suicide a couple weeks ago. He drove from here to Wichita Falls (about five hours or so away), pulled over on the side of the road, called the police and said there was a dead body in a car on the side of the road, and then asphyxiated himself. Just awful to watch her have to suffer with this, but at least he did it in a manner that only one person had to come across the body and they were prepared for it.

Posted: **Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:20 pm**

I read something about suicide recently that struck me as important and profound. It is also pretty simple and obvious, looking at it differently I suppose.

Suicidal thoughts/ideation, or the act of suicide, are the product of an altered state of mind. This is why applying the logic of a normal state of mind will fail to yield understanding of how or why someone could kill themselves.

An altered state of mind. Just as thinking and decision making is sometimes less than logical when one is really drunk, or the mind is altered by some other drug.

Another way to look at suicide is as a reaction to pain. Pain is one thing that can surely alter a state of mind. But this author frames it nicely, as when the amount of pain is greater than the amount of coping resources.

http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Start by considering this statement:

Suicide is not chosen; it happens
when pain exceeds
resources for coping with pain.

That's all it's about. You are not a bad person, or crazy, or weak, or flawed, because you feel suicidal. It doesn't even mean that you really want to die - it only means that you have more pain than you can cope with right now. If I start piling weights on your shoulders, you will eventually collapse if I add enough weights... no matter how much you want to remain standing. Willpower has nothing to do with it. Of course you would cheer yourself up, if you could.

Don't accept it if someone tells you, "That's not enough to be suicidal about." There are many kinds of pain that may lead to suicide. Whether or not the pain is bearable may differ from person to person. What might be bearable to someone else, may not be bearable to you. The point at which the pain becomes unbearable depends on what kinds of coping resources you have. Individuals vary greatly in their capacity to withstand pain.

When pain exceeds pain-coping resources, suicidal feelings are the result. Suicide is neither wrong nor right; it is not a defect of character; it is morally neutral. It is simply an imbalance of pain versus coping resources.

You can survive suicidal feelings if you do either of two things: (1) find a way to reduce your pain, or (2) find a way to increase your coping resources. Both are possible.

Posted: **Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:26 pm**

Giff wrote:A co-worker of mine lost her son to suicide a couple weeks ago. He drove from here to Wichita Falls (about five hours or so away), pulled over on the side of the road, called the police and said there was a dead body in a car on the side of the road, and then asphyxiated himself. Just awful to watch her have to suffer with this, but at least he did it in a manner that only one person had to come across the body and they were prepared for it.

Jeez. Calling in your own dead body. Glad I didn't think of that. In a dark way, that is actually thoughtful and considerate.

Posted: **Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:04 pm**

The Sybian wrote:
Giff wrote:A co-worker of mine lost her son to suicide a couple weeks ago. He drove from here to Wichita Falls (about five hours or so away), pulled over on the side of the road, called the police and said there was a dead body in a car on the side of the road, and then asphyxiated himself. Just awful to watch her have to suffer with this, but at least he did it in a manner that only one person had to come across the body and they were prepared for it.
Jeez. Calling in your own dead body. Glad I didn't think of that. In a dark way, that is actually thoughtful and considerate.

That's the first thing I said when I heard. I'd only met the kid once: at the DMB concert last year. The five minutes I spent talking to my co-worker at a benefit they had to raise money in his name for a donation to a suicide prevention cause was while a DMB song was playing over the jukebox. Kinda weird.

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:57 pm**

Please say a prayer or something, if you're so inclined. Yes, it is that Scottie.

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:10 pm**

Anyone in here ever actually meet him? I'm drawing a blank on his name, assuming what he shared was truly his name.

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:12 pm**

Kranepool tipped me off earlier...i don't tweet so it took me a while to hit the links etc...anways i left his address with the RCMP just now.

wtf. dammit.

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:14 pm**

Thanks Max.

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:24 pm**

fucking hell.

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:56 pm**

Aw, shit...

He did some fucked up stuff, but even the angriest of us wouldn't have wished that on him.

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:39 pm**

Scott is his middle name, so he wasn't technically lying. :)

I will not ever defend a lot of what happened here...that's not right: what he did to the Swamp. I never understood it.

That being said, I have met him in person - first time years ago, and again after I moved here to Vancouver last year, a few times. It certainly may be hard to reconcile - and honestly is sometimes for me too, when i have happened to come across his Twitter...twits (?? sorry, no idea - not my bag). I do not agree with a whole fuckload of stuff he types out...

But.

He has *always* been a gentle soul in-person, and extraordinarily generous. Near-180 from his online persona/s. I know many of you may roll your eyes at this but I can't stress that enough. He is. Both in/at his home, and amongst other friends (I actually went to a curling match of his a few months back).

I only can hope at this point that he was somehow "in character" this morning. I'll stop speculation and just hope he is heard from.

-Rob

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:46 pm**

sancarlos wrote:Please say a prayer or something, if you're so inclined. Yes, it is that Scottie.

Numerous demons there. I sincerely hope this is not true. Truly a brilliant individual, one of more than a few I have met in the Swamp.

I spoke with him one time, prior to a trip to Halifax. We spent about 25 minutes on the sights and history. He was very accommodating.

We had a few written conversations, and he always was a decent fellow to me. I have always wondered what happened to him.

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:47 pm**

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:00 pm**

I sent him a text. It's all I can do from several thousand miles away. But I've talked to him on the phone a few times. And I agree. He's a great guy. He's made some mistakes here but. I don't know about the but. I hope he's still around.

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:26 pm**

I hope not. I know he's had problems interacting here, but he was a great friend while I was going through my divorce and always enjoyed a talk on the phone or an email conversation. Was just talking to him about the 94 Expos the other day.

Hopefully this was just something he said and didn't go through with harming anyone.

Posted: **Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:31 am**

Spoken with him on the phone a few times. Multiple hours each time. Guy was fascinating to chat with. He was always intrigued by my being in the military and what quirks it entails. I really hope this isn't true. But knowing what I know from the swamp, it isn't shocking. Just...damn.

Posted: **Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:31 am**

Damn ...

Posted: **Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:53 am**

no word - i don't know what to expect or...? i suppose maybe check twitter but i confess to having watched the local news last night....that's grim isn't it.

Posted: **Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:16 pm**

Yikes....awful...

Posted: **Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:21 pm**

Max, keep us posted. Upsetting to see this. I keep checking fora news report. Hopefully just a momentary outburst.

Posted: **Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:06 pm**

Im checking for local news reports and twitter/facebook as well.

Posted: **Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:11 pm**

Text I received from Kranepool:

Police just now say he's located, alive and not suicidal. Thanks so much. max webster had more info on him, including address and cell)

Posted: **Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:03 pm**

Awesome!

The Swamp

Depression is awful, awful, awful....

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