I Don't Know Where To Put This

[Joe K]

How is it punishing? He isn't facing jail time. He can seek to go to college elsewhere. Really don't see that aspect of this.

Expulsion from an institution isn't a form of punishment?

No.

Attending college isn't a fundamental right.

This is true. Plus, I'm not sure if OU students affirmatively agree to follow the Code of Conduct, but I saw that the very first "student right" listed in it is that campus organizations will not discriminate on the basis of race.

[sancarlos]

This thread takes me back to my serious anti-frat prejudice of my college days. In the 30+ years since those days, I've gotten to know dozens of great guys who were in fraternities, so I've gotten over it. Really. But, at the time, I was a small-town, flannel shirt-wearing middle-class kid, and my friends and I just hated what we viewed as the popped collar, vuarnet and topsider rich kids. Inevitably at a house party, Tom Petty's "Refugee" would get played, and we'd sing at the top of our lungs, "NO, YA DON'T... HAVE... TO LIVE LIKE AN SAE!!!" . Funny that this is the fraternity that is in trouble in Oklahoma.

[mister d]

Talked to a friend in a role that would have to deal with this kind of shit. He said the code of conduct absolutely covers the words themselves, the only loophole for the dicks would be challenging their "leadership" role versus having everyone on video face the same punishment.

[The Sybian]

Plus, I'm not sure if OU students affirmatively agree to follow the Code of Conduct, but I saw that the very first "student right" listed in it is that campus organizations will not discriminate on the basis of race.

Policy violation. Of course!

Attending college isn't a fundamental right.

The fundamental right infringed is the right to Free Speech. The infringement is expelling the kids for exercising their right. The government action is very broad. One case the government action was prohibiting the sale of porn to minors. A very quick search came up with a S. Ct. case finding a public school's decision to expel students a violation of the 1st Amendment. They were in High School, so maybe you could argue that there is a right to secondary education but not to higher education. The Court didn't even address whether expulsion was a government infringement, not even the 2 dissents.

[howard]

Thanks for the thoughtful and reasoned opinions and analyses. Thanks to you too, mister d (i keed; the robert chambers line is the post of the thread.)

[mister d]

That joke hinged on you reading and remembering.

[The Sybian]

post script - So, it was Halloween in 1988, any guess what couple we dressed up as for the party?

Was there Monkey Business going on?

[Johnnie]

This has all the twinge of the Donald Sterling situation and none of the gigantic pool of money to disrupt an organization. And Donald Sterling didn't even say the N-word.

They are fundamentally different in terms of roles each person is in (owner of an entity in a private club versus student in a public school), but the result is the same: expulsion.

I guess as long as it fucks up the money flow or brings great embarrassment, "make the problem go away as fast as possible" is the go-to reaction. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it's all about perception of the governing body and what it will do to 'fix' everything. Something about that just doesn't seem correct. I hate "perception."

Also, This article goes into great detail expounding on a lot of what was already stated here.

[Joe K]

Also, This article goes into great detail expounding on a lot of what was already stated here.

Volokh is fairly libertarian and as such, I think his article treats free speech rights as more absolute and sacrosanct than they have ever actually been treated. On the first day of my First Amendment class, my professor made it very clear to us that factors like politics, values, biases and fears have always played a big role in how First Amendment cases are decided. If you don't believe that, try translating pro-ISIS propaganda into English and posting it online, and see how well it works out to argue that you can't be prosecuted for political speech.

[howard]

OK, so I'll try to remember this 40yo incident. This frat, Sigma Nu, had a drinking song, telling the story of Lupe, "my hot-fucking, cock-sucking Mexican Whore." There was a brother who was Mexican American, I assume when he pledged this became his theme song, and his nickname was 'Lupe'. I knew Nick, same high school as me, and he ran track/cross country. This seemed to me like run of the mill ethnic teasing amongst friends. This may have been a rugby song, I don't remember, but the frat had some ruggers as well as other jocks (but ∑AE was the big football frat.)

Word got around that this frat regularly sang a racist song at their parties. I have no memory who complained to administration, or what if any organized protest there was; whatever Chicano Students organization or EOC group was venting in the student newspaper.

Frats were all off-campus, on private property, granted zoning permission from the city government, and I do not recall any involvement of the city in this controversy. I don't know if there was any formal permission from the university for frats to exist. All the administration did is send a letter to the frat, call the leaders in for a chat. (The Dean of Students was a friend of my parents. His perspective was interesting; he was black, had been an administrator and professor at black Fisk University, in the opening age of Affirmative Action landed this nice job at 94% white UCD. ) It didn't hurt that Sigma Nu was by far the coolest frat, as well as the most racially mixed.

The biggest controversy as I recall was not punishment of the frat, but whether or not the school newspaper would print the lyrics of the song, dirty words and all. Again, as I recall, the administration did not publicly weigh in on this question; it was a decision of the student editors of the paper. (Dean Stevenson strongly preferred they not print it, but did not publicly lean on them.) They printed it; I don't think anyone fainted.

The zeitgiest was predominated by two factors; 1) of course frat boys do stuff like this, even the frat that has a much higher percentage of brown/black students than the school as a whole; 2) primacy of First Amendment concerns, regarding publishing the offensive material; the right to sing such a song w/o official sanction was a given.

My takeaway was the shameful way Nick was treated by fellow Chicano students and leaders, both personally and in the school newspaper. He was labeled a race traitor. Of course, this reflected some of my own experiences with black kids who could not understand my friendship with white kids.

But, yeah, First Amendment. And that was a different time.

(I like stories)

[Giff]

Also, This article goes into great detail expounding on a lot of what was already stated here.

Volokh is fairly libertarian and as such, I think his article treats free speech rights as more absolute and sacrosanct than they have ever actually been treated. On the first day of my First Amendment class, my professor made it very clear to us that factors like politics, values, biases and fears have always played a big role in how First Amendment cases are decided. If you don't believe that, try translating pro-ISIS propaganda into English and posting it online, and see how well it works out to argue that you can't be prosecuted for political speech.

Or what about a student who registers for a class and then decides to stand up the entire time talking over the professor. Should he be kicked out for expressing his first amendment rights?

[The Sybian]

Also, This article goes into great detail expounding on a lot of what was already stated here.

Volokh is fairly libertarian and as such, I think his article treats free speech rights as more absolute and sacrosanct than they have ever actually been treated. On the first day of my First Amendment class, my professor made it very clear to us that factors like politics, values, biases and fears have always played a big role in how First Amendment cases are decided. If you don't believe that, try translating pro-ISIS propaganda into English and posting it online, and see how well it works out to argue that you can't be prosecuted for political speech.

Or what about a student who registers for a class and then decides to stand up the entire time talking over the professor. Should he be kicked out for expressing his first amendment rights?

Yes, because that is disruptive speech, which is a carved out exception.

[Giff]

Also, This article goes into great detail expounding on a lot of what was already stated here.

Volokh is fairly libertarian and as such, I think his article treats free speech rights as more absolute and sacrosanct than they have ever actually been treated. On the first day of my First Amendment class, my professor made it very clear to us that factors like politics, values, biases and fears have always played a big role in how First Amendment cases are decided. If you don't believe that, try translating pro-ISIS propaganda into English and posting it online, and see how well it works out to argue that you can't be prosecuted for political speech.

Or what about a student who registers for a class and then decides to stand up the entire time talking over the professor. Should he be kicked out for expressing his first amendment rights?

Yes, because that is disruptive speech, which is a carved out exception.

I think the OU officials would argue there's been plenty of disruption with this speech as well.

What if a kid was kicked out of class for calling his black professor this same word?

[The Sybian]

I think the OU officials would argue there's been plenty of disruption with this speech as well.

What if a kid was kicked out of class for calling his black professor this same word?

I agree with you, just throwing out the arguments. Second hypo? Not even debatable IMO. 1st Amendment cases usually require an immediate disruption or threat to qualify as an exception. If the video wasn't leaked, no disruption.

[mister d]

So, in theory, would a 500 student march non-violently chanting just the n-word be protected speech or is there a different exception that applies there? This seems like one of those rare times where I'm totally cool with the slippery slope.

[howard]

Wrong slope, d. Today, one word is banned; down the slope, there are dozens of hundreds of banned words. Or banned other things.

[Bensell]

I am totally fine with the entire frat being kicked off campus, as that is clearly a violation of the code of conduct. Suspend those who are identified for the rest of the semester and make them take some sort of sensitivity course or volunteer service, but don't expel them.

This is a situation that deserves immediate expulsion: full article link here

Less than a month ago they allowed Joe Mixon, a talented running back videotaped punching a female student in an off-campus bar, back onto the football team after a year long suspension just from the football team. Yep, Mixon punched a female student and was never even kicked off campus. The punch was so violent that his female victim, a Sooner student, suffered a fractured jaw, a broken cheek bone, a broken nose and a fractured orbital bone near her left eye. Oh, and Mixon also began the incident, according to the complaint, by directing a gay slur at the woman's male companion at the bar.

What did President David Boren say in that case?

"The judicial outcome and the video speak for themselves," Oklahoma President David L. Boren said. "The University is an educational institution, which always sets high standards that we hope will be upheld by our students. We hope that our students will all learn from those standards, but at the same time, we believe in second chances so that our students can learn and grow from life's experiences."
Boren said Mixon will be given a chance to "earn his way back on the team."

Oh, so the star running back gets a second chance for breaking four bones on a female student's face on video after a gay slur, but the guys in a frat don't get a second chance for saying something racist on a video?

[mister d]

Wrong slope, d. Today, one word is banned; down the slope, there are dozens of hundreds of banned words. Or banned other things.

Pretty obvious you just don't get it and never will.



(For real, I can't think of another combination of word + context that even approaches this level, again especially given the country's history. This isn't getting arrested for saying it in a bar, its holding school representatives (loose interpretation) accountable. Oklahoma not doing anything would be worse than stomping on these poor-super-sorry-just-kiddin'-around kid's dicks.)

[howard]

Pretty obvious you just don't get it and never will.

I have no clue what you mean.


So, I guess you are right.

Probably a result of you not understanding what I have said, or inserting words/thoughts into my posts that aren't there. Whatevs.

[DC47]

I am totally fine with the entire frat being kicked off campus, as that is clearly a violation of the code of conduct. Suspend those who are identified for the rest of the semester and make them take some sort of sensitivity course or volunteer service, but don't expel them.

This is a situation that deserves immediate expulsion: full article link here

Less than a month ago they allowed Joe Mixon, a talented running back videotaped punching a female student in an off-campus bar, back onto the football team after a year long suspension just from the football team. Yep, Mixon punched a female student and was never even kicked off campus. The punch was so violent that his female victim, a Sooner student, suffered a fractured jaw, a broken cheek bone, a broken nose and a fractured orbital bone near her left eye. Oh, and Mixon also began the incident, according to the complaint, by directing a gay slur at the woman's male companion at the bar.

What did President David Boren say in that case?

"The judicial outcome and the video speak for themselves," Oklahoma President David L. Boren said. "The University is an educational institution, which always sets high standards that we hope will be upheld by our students. We hope that our students will all learn from those standards, but at the same time, we believe in second chances so that our students can learn and grow from life's experiences."
Boren said Mixon will be given a chance to "earn his way back on the team."

Oh, so the star running back gets a second chance for breaking four bones on a female student's face on video after a gay slur, but the guys in a frat don't get a second chance for saying something racist on a video?

More information is needed to properly assess this case. Please provide a link to the 40-yard dash tmes of the female student and frat boys. Also, the boyfriend's if he is an enrolled student with athletic eligibility, and is not actually gay.

[DC47]

Pretty obvious you just don't get it and never will.

I have no clue what you mean.

So, I guess you are right.

Probably a result of you not understanding what I have said, or inserting words/thoughts into my posts that aren't there. Whatevs.

He saying you are not gay, so you lack the level of insight achieved by those who share his lifestyle choice.

[DC47]

I ... think of getting arrested for ... doing ...these ... kid's dicks.)

[Shirley]

Howard, other than labeling the woman "Mexican," was there anything specifically racist about the song? To me, labeling a race isn't really clear racism. If that's all it takes, then any negative character in a tv show or movie who isn't white - say crazy Tuco from Breaking Bad - could be consider racist.

[mister d]

Pretty obvious you just don't get it and never will.

I have no clue what you mean.

So, I guess you are right.

South Park.

[mister d]

(Also, specific words aren't banned and none should be, but there are plenty of combinations you can't use without repercussions, mostly threatening. In context, I'm fine including this chants. The NFL's attempted ban would be the ridoculous opposite.)

[howard]

Sorry, I didn't get the joke. I would rather enjoy being compared to Cartman.

Some folks here in this very nice discussion do not think the specific word 'nigger' was the central factor of this story. Other folks, including me, think it was; that w/o the word, the reaction is very different. Fair disagreement.

And one of potentially several slippery slopes is the concept of single words being banned, which concerns some of us.

Shirley, I don't remember any slur word (like spic or wetback) from the song lyrics. I can't remember many of the lyrics. But there was a strong racial identification with the raunchy acts that Lupe was willing to do, and enjoyed. And, the identification of the song and nickname with the Chicano student/frat brother.

I've used Chicano more today than I have in the past five years. Do they still say it? Or is that like negro? (or 'so-called negroes'.)

[mister d]

I did miss that point. I think you use negro or even black in that song and have some fight video where a white kid drops the n-word and the former still draws more ire.

[nastyned]

The hilarious part? The prospective student athlete who left OU? Is considering the Univ of Alabama... one of the most historically racist schools in America...

[A_B]

The hilarious part? The prospective student athlete who left OU? Is considering the Univ of Alabama... one of the most historically racist schools in America...

ALabama loves black kids who can run 4.4 40s and sack the QB!

[tennbengal]

Once again, no fundamental right to a college education.

[mister d]

Alabama probably recruited him.

[The Sybian]

The hilarious part? The prospective student athlete who left OU? Is considering the Univ of Alabama... one of the most historically racist schools in America...

I didn't think about it until your comment, but shouldn't OU reacting immediately and harshly to punish the offenders show that the school is supportive of black students? If you think about it, this should attract black athletes.

TB: Again, nobody is saying there is a fundamental right to a college education, it is a privilege. The government denying a privilege based on exercising the fundamental right to free speech is a denial of the fundamental right to free speech. I think this situation falls into an exception. If the students were expelled for respectfully disagreeing with the school president's decision in the school newspaper, that would be a violation of free speech, right? Same government action denying the same fundamental right. Falling into an exception category is the question.