The Swamp

He just had his six-hour meeting with Roger Goodell, a meeting which he apparently initiated himself. In the build-up to the draft, he seems to be doing and saying the right things. I haven't read anything about Tampa Bay being against him, so he might be The Guy.

I've said before that sports needs villains as much as it needs heroes. It would be boring if everybody was like Russell Wilson or Jonathan Toews. This is why I love Johnny Manziel so much. (I certainly don't think that Manziel is a bad guy, but he seems to relish playing that role.) We need more Bill Belichicks. Dwight Howard can still go fuck himself, tho.

But Winston might actually be a bad guy. This wouldn't make him unique in the NFL, of course, but for a franchise quarterback? First overall pick? You want somebody who hasn't been accused of rape in that position. (Accused, not convicted, yes. But the Tallahassee prosecutors didn't do him any favors with the way that they handled the case.)

Other athletes have been in this position before, but I think that things are different now than just five years ago when Ben Roethlisberger was the biggest offseason story. Now, even a nondescript player like Josh Lueke can be a rallying cry.

So. What do you guys expect from him? I was going to start a poll, but I'm not even sure what kind of response I'm looking for. Are you going to follow his career closely, even if it's in the hopes of seeing him fail? (The glee that surrounded Florida State's loss to Oregon points to a resounding Yes from a lot of people.) What say you, Swamp?

Without complete conviction he's innocent, which I imagine is impossible, I wouldn't take him. Take that pass rusher guy.

I hope he fails miserably but stays around long enough to behave the whole time and then succeed somewhere down the road.

For comparison, I hope Manziel never does anything right, I'd be rooting for A-Rod right now were he in a different uniform, and I think Vick paid his dues and I enjoyed his brief resurgence. I don't know what puts Winston on one side or the other for me, and it could definitely swing back and forth, but for now I'm going with the eventual knocked-down-a-peg-followed-by-redemption story.

Or he could totally suck and be Vince Younged within 3 years and I wouldn't really care.

Ryan wrote:and I think Vick paid his dues and I enjoyed his brief resurgence.

I did, too, and that surprised me. Probably because he actually served prison time and seemed contrite when he got out.

I'm all for second chances and the rehabilitation of images, but I don't know what to make of Winston. He supposedly has off-the-charts Football IQ, which makes some of his behavior even more head-scratching. Or it could just be that his every move is being scrutinized. Case in point: when he shoved the official so that he could get under center in a game last fall. Was he merely a competitor losing his head in the heat of battle? Or was he history's greatest monster? Would we have seen that replay 30 times if it were Marcus Mariota?

My intellectual hatred of Vick far outstrips my visceral hatred these days. I would never root for him and, if I really think about it, I get bothered all over again, but its not a Lueke or Roethlisberger-esque revulsion on sight anymore. And not just because of the differing level of crime; Lueke comes off like he sees himself as one of the victims of his situation and Roethlisberger comes off as a self-forgiver. Vick seemed to legitimately own what he did.

I'd put more blame on TPD than the Tallahassee prosecutors, but whatevs. I hope he doesn't come here. My social media feeds were annoying enough when he was at FSU. That's the only downfall for me though. I've given up on the Bucs, and the NFL.

bapo! wrote: But Winston might actually be a bad guy. This wouldn't make him unique in the NFL, of course, but for a franchise quarterback?

(second round pick)

I was a huge fan. The Snake had a reputation for all forms of invidious partying. What evil did he commit that I have forgotten?

I'm just playing. He had some DUIs, I don't remember anything else. Well, the 'Holy Roller' forward fumble was pretty villainous.

Thank god. This actually bothered me when I read it. I'd sure like it to not be the case that the players I loved as a kid turn out to commit crimes and ethical malfunctions that I never did. At least the big ones I never did.

I've certainly driven under the influence. Just not been caught like Stabler was. I imagine there were a few cops in northern California and Alabama who game him a pass too.

Stabler throwing to Fred, Caspar, Branch, Chester -- these were highlights of my teen NFL fan days. If he hadn't come up behind Lamonica and so lost several years as a starting QB, Stabler would probably step up in grade to rank just behind the greats at QB. Definitely should be in the HOF. At least so says my youthful memory.

I'm not sure how Winston will turn out as a player. His freshman year was great, but he was very mistake prone last year. For a guy who supposedly has an off-the-charts "football IQ," 18 INTs in 14 games is an awful lot. Also, the way that teams, scouts, and analysts fawned over Winston at the combine is proof (as if any more was needed) that the NFL's domestic violence initiative is complete and utter bullshit. I read through the entire police file when it was made public, and found the allegations very credible. Everything the accuser did was entirely consistent with someone who truly believed that she had been sexually assaulted. And yet you have all these NFL types talking about his "confidence" and "leadership," while at the same time questioning whether Mariotta is too soft-spoken to be an NFL QB.

DC47 wrote:Thank god. This actually bothered me when I read it. I'd sure like it to not be the case that the players I loved as a kid turn out to commit crimes and ethical malfunctions that I never did. At least the big ones I never did.

I've certainly driven under the influence. Just not been caught like Stabler was. I imagine there were a few cops in northern California and Alabama who game him a pass too.

Stabler throwing to Fred, Caspar, Branch, Chester -- these were highlights of my teen NFL fan days. If he hadn't come up behind Lamonica and so lost several years as a starting QB, Stabler would probably step up in grade to rank just behind the greats at QB. Definitely should be in the HOF. At least so says my youthful memory.

And my youthful memories are that he was one of the great clutch QBs in history, as (according to my memories) the Raiders were never out of a game. They would always find a way to come back and make things close.

Watching the FSU-Oregon game I saw one QB throwing to shitty WRs on slow developing routes who were never open in the face of a rush and still somehow moving the ball. I saw another throwing quick screens to dudes wide the fuck open with no pressure whatsoever.

I know Winston threw a ton of picks, but that team kinda sucked. I have no idea why all of their corners are projected as first round picks. I think he's gonna dominate - by on-field behavior, he's spoken of by teammates in the same light as Russell Wilson.

The off-field stuff is a joke outside of the rape. If you think he raped, you should hate him. If you don't, who gives a shit if he's dumb and yelled F her in the P and stole crabs. I personally don't know if he raped, I have to assume he didn't and I hope he balls the fuck out.

I can't root for Winston. Too much smoke. But I think he's a fine QB. One of the best to be in the draft in recent years.

Pruitt wrote:And my youthful memories are that he was one of the great clutch QBs in history, as (according to my memories) the Raiders were never out of a game. They would always find a way to come back and make things close.

Yeah, Sea of Hands. Some erroneously thought this was just luck. Stabler foolishly gambling, yet again. But if you watch the tape, Stabler knew the only place where Davis could go to possibly make a catch, and he put the ball right there -- albeit in slow motion -- even as he was being sacked. Great move by Davis, and even better hands. Quite a surprise as Davis was just a mediocre runner who wasn't any part of the passing attack. i wonder why he was even on the field. If Stabler hadn't been going down and had instead thrown a normal ball to Davis it probably would have hit him in the face since he had no hands.

Did Gropey McGroperson strike a deal with the NFL to keep his heinous behavior out of the media?

brian wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:50 am

I really miss rooting for the Bucs. I mean, I don’t like the NFL like I once did (for reasons to which I think we can all relate), but there’s an additional impediment in my mind that will not allow me to fully appreciate any successes the Buccaneers achieve.

Wordy. Whatever. But I can’t wait for that clown to be off the team.

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:53 am

brian wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:50 am

I really miss rooting for the Bucs. I mean, I don’t like the NFL like I once did (for reasons to which I think we can all relate), but there’s an additional impediment in my mind that will not allow me to fully appreciate any successes the Buccaneers achieve.

Wordy. Whatever. But I can’t wait for that clown to be off the team.

In this, we're now in the same boat brother.

brian wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:56 am

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:53 am

brian wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:50 am

I really miss rooting for the Bucs. I mean, I don’t like the NFL like I once did (for reasons to which I think we can all relate), but there’s an additional impediment in my mind that will not allow me to fully appreciate any successes the Buccaneers achieve.

Wordy. Whatever. But I can’t wait for that clown to be off the team.

In this, we're now in the same boat brother.

Wait until you realize how hard you laugh at any of their onfield misfortunes, and darker, how good it makes you feel.

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:58 am

brian wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:56 am

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:53 am

brian wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:50 am

I really miss rooting for the Bucs. I mean, I don’t like the NFL like I once did (for reasons to which I think we can all relate), but there’s an additional impediment in my mind that will not allow me to fully appreciate any successes the Buccaneers achieve.

Wordy. Whatever. But I can’t wait for that clown to be off the team.

In this, we're now in the same boat brother.

Wait until you realize how hard you laugh at any of their onfield misfortunes, and darker, how good it makes you feel.

No, I totally believe that. Being a Lions fan makes your heart hard to begin with.

I don’t know what’s a worse look for Jameis. That he was out partying with convicted rapist Brandon Banks (one of the perpetrators of the awful Vandy rape) on the night of this Uber incident or that Eagles CB Ronald Darby (who previously helped cover for Jameis on the FSU rape) lied about the incident and claimed that Banks was the one sitting next to the driver.

The Bucs deserve every bit of this headache, too, given what was already known when they drafted him.

Joe K wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:02 pm I don’t know what’s a worse look for Jameis. That he was out partying with convicted rapist Brandon Banks (one of the perpetrators of the awful Vandy rape) on the night of this Uber incident or that Eagles CB Ronald Darby (who previously helped cover for Jameis on the FSU rape) lied about the incident and claimed that Banks was the one sitting next to the driver.

The Bucs deserve every bit of this headache, too, given what was already known when they drafted him.

They saw the upside of $$$ in having a FSU QB as their own for the next 10-15 years. Butts in seats. Sell outs. Now, there's zero chance they divorce from him - not when the NFL is offering to stop the investigation into the truth if he settles for a 3 game ban, anyway..

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:17 pm

Joe K wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:02 pm I don’t know what’s a worse look for Jameis. That he was out partying with convicted rapist Brandon Banks (one of the perpetrators of the awful Vandy rape) on the night of this Uber incident or that Eagles CB Ronald Darby (who previously helped cover for Jameis on the FSU rape) lied about the incident and claimed that Banks was the one sitting next to the driver.

The Bucs deserve every bit of this headache, too, given what was already known when they drafted him.

They saw the upside of $$$ in having a FSU QB as their own for the next 10-15 years. Butts in seats. Sell outs. Now, there's zero chance they divorce from him - not when the NFL is offering to stop the investigation into the truth if he settles for a 3 game ban, anyway..

What are the odds the NFL has run a full enough investigation to uncover the full story, including the worst details that make a three-game suspension an acceptable punishment to the public?

DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:03 pm

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:17 pm

Joe K wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:02 pm I don’t know what’s a worse look for Jameis. That he was out partying with convicted rapist Brandon Banks (one of the perpetrators of the awful Vandy rape) on the night of this Uber incident or that Eagles CB Ronald Darby (who previously helped cover for Jameis on the FSU rape) lied about the incident and claimed that Banks was the one sitting next to the driver.

The Bucs deserve every bit of this headache, too, given what was already known when they drafted him.

They saw the upside of $$$ in having a FSU QB as their own for the next 10-15 years. Butts in seats. Sell outs. Now, there's zero chance they divorce from him - not when the NFL is offering to stop the investigation into the truth if he settles for a 3 game ban, anyway..

What are the odds the NFL has run a full enough investigation to uncover the full story, including the worst details that make a three-game suspension an acceptable punishment to the public?

It depends on whether or not the Glazers / Buccaneers were privy to the findings. Otherwise, 50/50?

We can now expect him to try to find a future endorsement to replace the one he had with Nike, who will not be renewing their deal with him.