2016 Presidential Race

[howard]

But for that matter, none of your guys opinions matter all that much to me. You just aren't celebrities.

But…but…

[howard]

This is reason number one:

Robert Kagan and Other Neocons Are Backing Hillary Clinton

[howard]

Long piece on the guy running Trump's campaign. I didn't realize he was a Jim Baker acolyte, but makes sense.

The Quiet American

Paul Manafort made a career out of stealthily reinventing the world’s nastiest tyrants as noble defenders of freedom. Getting Donald Trump elected will be a cinch.

[Steve of phpBB]

America has a 17 trillion dollar GDP. We have the money to do lots of things. We have the power to do far more. But we're hellbent on concentrating wealth for a very small group of people.

Unfortunately never ending war, unlimited government contracts for future weapons systems, and things of that nature trump education and shit that matters. (And how many billions go to actually putting on the shitshows?)

The math says yes. The attitude of entitlement in America says no.

Bingo. Somehow a lot of other countries manage to have "free" healthcare and education, and those places aren't exactly hellscapes.

[degenerasian]

America has a 17 trillion dollar GDP. We have the money to do lots of things. We have the power to do far more. But we're hellbent on concentrating wealth for a very small group of people.

Unfortunately never ending war, unlimited government contracts for future weapons systems, and things of that nature trump education and shit that matters. (And how many billions go to actually putting on the shitshows?)

The math says yes. The attitude of entitlement in America says no.

Bingo. Somehow a lot of other countries manage to have "free" healthcare and education, and those places aren't exactly hellscapes.

but they are not 300 million people either.

[Brontoburglar]

America has a 17 trillion dollar GDP. We have the money to do lots of things. We have the power to do far more. But we're hellbent on concentrating wealth for a very small group of people.

Unfortunately never ending war, unlimited government contracts for future weapons systems, and things of that nature trump education and shit that matters. (And how many billions go to actually putting on the shitshows?)

The math says yes. The attitude of entitlement in America says no.

Bingo. Somehow a lot of other countries manage to have "free" healthcare and education, and those places aren't exactly hellscapes.

but they are not 300 million people either.

given resources available (i.e. tax revenue) are dependent on population, that really shouldn't be a factor

[degenerasian]

America has a 17 trillion dollar GDP. We have the money to do lots of things. We have the power to do far more. But we're hellbent on concentrating wealth for a very small group of people.

Unfortunately never ending war, unlimited government contracts for future weapons systems, and things of that nature trump education and shit that matters. (And how many billions go to actually putting on the shitshows?)

The math says yes. The attitude of entitlement in America says no.

Bingo. Somehow a lot of other countries manage to have "free" healthcare and education, and those places aren't exactly hellscapes.

but they are not 300 million people either.

given resources available (i.e. tax revenue) are dependent on population, that really shouldn't be a factor

Not money. Space and resources.. physical space, infrastructure.
In Canada we have free healthcare meaning you can go to the family doctor for free. A family doctor can see a maximum of 40 patients per day. He can see more but he won't be paid for it, so he doesn't.

In the States you'd need 10 times the number of family doctors and 10 times the number office spaces/clinics. Same goes for hospitals, you'd need 10 times more specialists and 10 times more hospital space. There is already such a long waiting list for MRIs in Canada that people go to the States. My dad is current scheduled for Cateract surgery in November. How long would a US free healthcare line be?

[Ryan]

There are roughly 157 hospitals/clinics/walk-in centers out my window right now. And I can't even see Florida.

[P.D.X.]

We already have the doctors and hospitals and stuff.

[brian]

Yeah, this may surprise you but people have been getting health care in the United States all this time.

[The Sybian]

if both your parents combined make $120,000 you don't qualify for a student loan at the University of Calgary.

Financial aid is all specifically tied to the institution? Here we can't get school specific aid due to certain criteria, but there is federal and state available to pretty much everyone.

How are students supposed to afford 15K a semester if middle class families can't get loans to help out?

sorry, it's provincial here. But Alberta only has a handful of public universities. Five I think. And two trade schools.
Is the states going from $15K tuition per semester to free is a big jump isn't it?

I think Brian's line of "but you can't get a job without an education" is a key one. Why can't we get a job without an education? Are there too many college graduates out there?


One problem is that having too many degrees makes them worthless. Most jobs shouldn't need degrees but increasingly do because of the supply of degrees people. 20 years ago a B.Comm in Accounting led to a decent career. Now that gets you nowhere as there are too many of them. Now you need a CPA designation to get the same job a B.Comm got. Soon there will be too many of those and a 3rd step will be needed.

The right type of degrees are needed. For example there are still significant shortages in the STEM fields and as we automate blue-collar jobs those jobs become what is left. Increase those class sizes and reduce sociology classes (sorry sociology majors)

I think a better way than free tutition is just to expand online education and certification. With online webcasts you could take classes
From MIT without being there. You just need a way to accredit people who take a web based education. Cost is almost nothing compared to a university experience and would fit with the majority of post secondary people who aren't conventional 4 yr students at big state colleges.

Even $15K is extremely low. The numbers I found show the average public University is $19,00 for room and board, $32,000 out of state public school, and $42,000 for private school. I do agree that not everyone should go to college, but I think a lot of people wouldn't go through 4 years of college even if it was free. Space in public universities is limited, and private universities will still be there, and people will still pay for private education. Look at how many people pay for private elementary and secondary schools despite free public schools. For the people freaking out, private schools used to be free. Jefferson set up UVA as a free university, so it's not like this is a crazy foreign concept that the Founding Fathers would have hated.

[sancarlos]

In the States you'd need 10 times the number of family doctors and 10 times the number office spaces/clinics. Same goes for hospitals, you'd need 10 times more specialists and 10 times more hospital space. There is already such a long waiting list for MRIs in Canada that people go to the States. My dad is current scheduled for Cateract surgery in November. How long would a US free healthcare line be?

Yeah, according to my relatives up there, the Canadian healthcare system is hardly a panacea. Really good doctors who can make top earnings aren't going to stay in a somewhat socialized system. They moved to the States, where their earnings power is greater. One of my grandfathers had cancer, but it was not considered "urgent" enough to move to the head of the line, so he waited for surgery and it ended up having to be much more invasive than if he hadn't waited. He died and my grandmother was pretty bitter about everything. Just some anecdotal evidence.

Now, does that mean I don't support tax-supported healthcare for all? No, it does not. Just pointing out some flies in the ointment.

[Rush2112]

sorry, it's provincial here. But Alberta only has a handful of public universities. Five I think. And two trade schools.
Is the states going from $15K tuition per semester to free is a big jump isn't it?

According to the College Board, the average tuition is $9,410 for in-state and $23,893 for out-of-state at public colleges. I'm not sure if the "free" tuition plan will include stipulations on where you can go or not.

I agree with Brian on two points. One that college is a lot more than just the in-classroom education, and in today's work environment the Bachelors degree is the equivalent of the high school diploma 30-40 years ago.

[degenerasian]

yeah but when it's universally FREE, the volume escalates. Maybe not to the extent that i think it will.

another thing.. if you have pricey private education and free public education, doesn't it become a two tiered system where employers will just shit on public school degrees? Or does that already happen now too?

and to Brian's point: The education flip model doesn't mean doing away with face-to-face interaction. It flips what parts are done face-to-face and which are done independently. The traditional model delivers lectures face-to-face and has students do the coursework independently. The flip model delivers lectures independently (and far more efficiently and cheaper) while bringing students together in small groups, with facilitators, to do the coursework.

Universities are stubbornly resisting this new model because it's disruptive of traditional practices and threatens jobs. No need to have a student studying biochemistry in Calgary watch a lecture by a teacher based in Calgary when he can watch a lecture by the best biochemistry lecturer in the english language, regardless of where the lecturer is based.

[Rush2112]

In some localities and professions, it does matter where you go to school, but I've found that it's more important where you went to grad school than your undergrad.

I'm not sure that your fear of overcrowding schools is all that well founded either. Just because state schools will be "free" doesn't mean that every school will have the same requirements for admission, and as I said earlier I'm not sure if there will be stipulations on where you attend in order to get the tuition. Does the kid from NYC get OSU paid for, etc.? or on grades that you need to achieve (I got a stipend my last year in college as all New Mexico residents got reimbursed for tuition at state schools as long they had gotten a certain GPA in high school, scores on standardized tests, and then kept a certain GPA in college.)

I think that the real effect will be AFTER these students graduate. Having an extra 500 or whatever a month going straight into the economy rather than to a lender will really help the economy.

[Ryan]

yeah but when it's universally FREE, the volume escalates. Maybe not to the extent that i think it will.

You still may be right that there's be massive issues, especially in parts of the country where cheap healthcare would have a bigger impact than here in suburbia. But they're building chain store immediate care centers up here like banks. And even before those opened, the two major hospitals here combined for 6 or 8 of them and had almost no wait times. Plus, despite the dire need for millions of people, a pretty good chunk of the population already has a decent insurance plan where going to a walk-in clinic seems basically free because of employer-paid deductibles and the like, and I can't picture lines out the door.

The only thing I can see as a snag is if Muslims and Indians who look like Muslims don't want to come here and be doctors anymore. But that's ridiculous.

[DaveInSeattle]

Bill looks OLD....but he can still deliver a speech.

[brian]

Rumored he's in the early stages of Alzheimer's or dementia.

[DaveInSeattle]

Rumored he's in the early stages of Alzheimer's or dementia.

I noticed his right thumb was shaking pretty bad...

[howard]

[Pruitt]

^^ So true.

If I was a hardcore Sanders supporter, the fact that I am being hectored by the likes of Sarah Silverman and Seth Myers would almost be enough to lead me to putting a Trump sign on my lawn.

Being spoken down to is never an enjoyable feeling - must be less so if it's being done by SNL alumni.

Here's King of Comedy Myers leading off his show:

“Hey! What’s going on?” Meyers asked. “I tuned in last night and there was more white booing than the Casper movie. Look, I know you’re ‘Bernie or Bust’ but the results are in and ‘Bust’ won. We don’t have time for this.”

Here's a take on Silverman's routine with Franken.

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/209129/ ... n=july2016

But it’s not the message that was so out of touch; it was Silverman’s disbelief. She and Franken seemed stunned—just as Debbie Wasserman Schultz did at her disastrous speech to Florida delegates—that revelations brought by the DNC email leak are enough to turn a voter off of Hillary. Could it be that Sanders supporters have significant policy differences than those of Hillary? Or perhaps that Clinton, supposedly the champion of common sense progressives, chose a VP whose politics are, at best, moderately liberal? How about the fact that Clinton had just hired Wasserman Schultz, who many Sanders supporters see as the architect of collusion against Bernie?

The level of condescension is incredible.

[Gunpowder]

Jefferson set up UVA as a free university, so it's not like this is a crazy foreign concept that the Founding Fathers would have hated.

I think a lot of people would be surprised as to what wouldn't cause the founding fathers to roll over in their graves, if they actually wanted to look.

[Gunpowder]

In the States you'd need 10 times the number of family doctors and 10 times the number office spaces/clinics. Same goes for hospitals, you'd need 10 times more specialists and 10 times more hospital space. There is already such a long waiting list for MRIs in Canada that people go to the States. My dad is current scheduled for Cateract surgery in November. How long would a US free healthcare line be?

Yeah, according to my relatives up there, the Canadian healthcare system is hardly a panacea. Really good doctors who can make top earnings aren't going to stay in a somewhat socialized system. They moved to the States, where their earnings power is greater. One of my grandfathers had cancer, but it was not considered "urgent" enough to move to the head of the line, so he waited for surgery and it ended up having to be much more invasive than if he hadn't waited. He died and my grandmother was pretty bitter about everything. Just some anecdotal evidence.

Now, does that mean I don't support tax-supported healthcare for all? No, it does not. Just pointing out some flies in the ointment.

I saw the same thing happen. You still have to provide incentives to doctors, etc. and I wouldn't copy Canada's model.

But I just don't get the "we have 350 million people!" argument.

[Gunpowder]

another thing.. if you have pricey private education and free public education, doesn't it become a two tiered system where employers will just shit on public school degrees? Or does that already happen now too?

Perhaps, which would pale in comparison to not being able to go or having 6 figures in shit-free debt.

Another argument I've always hated is "well what about this minor problem that addressing a major problem will cause!". If people consistently thought like that, nothing would ever get better. Don't invent computers, people will get addicted to video games. Don't cure cancer, people living longer will have to be taken care of in their 90s. And so on and so forth.

[Johnnie]

That Silverman and Meyers liberal elitism is exactly what turns off people from voting Democrat. Ditto the bullshit with Lena Dunham and America Ferrera. I get all of their points, but chastising me like I don't? Fuck you.

[degenerasian]

another thing.. if you have pricey private education and free public education, doesn't it become a two tiered system where employers will just shit on public school degrees? Or does that already happen now too?

Perhaps, which would pale in comparison to not being able to go or having 6 figures in shit-free debt.

Another argument I've always hated is "well what about this minor problem that addressing a major problem will cause!". If people consistently thought like that, nothing would ever get better. Don't invent computers, people will get addicted to video games. Don't cure cancer, people living longer will have to be taken care of in their 90s. And so on and so forth.

It may cause an equally bigger problem or not solve the problem at all.

I agree that it solves the student debt-problem. Except Sanders wasn't really arguing that point. He was arguing the other point that free schools will allow the poor kids to go to college instead of being in prison. That I don't buy because I've seen it in practice. Rich kids will always have the advantage. That advantage occurs earlier, like in grade school. There is no way around it unless you have artificial quotas.

Same with the increasing minimum wage to $15 proposal. Does this cause a minor problem or does it create an entirely new major problem?

[Brontoburglar]

another thing.. if you have pricey private education and free public education, doesn't it become a two tiered system where employers will just shit on public school degrees? Or does that already happen now too?

Perhaps, which would pale in comparison to not being able to go or having 6 figures in shit-free debt.

Another argument I've always hated is "well what about this minor problem that addressing a major problem will cause!". If people consistently thought like that, nothing would ever get better. Don't invent computers, people will get addicted to video games. Don't cure cancer, people living longer will have to be taken care of in their 90s. And so on and so forth.

It may cause an equally bigger problem or not solve the problem at all.

Like?

Same with the increasing minimum wage to $15 proposal. Does this cause a minor problem or does it create an entirely new major problem?

Or solve another problem? http://www.epi.org/publication/wages-and-transfers/

Raising wages among low- and middle-wage workers would simultaneously lift incomes and reduce spending on public assistance programs. The government could then use these savings to bolster anti-poverty efforts or make new job-creating investments. Increasing the federal minimum wage is one simple way this could be achieved—though it is not the only way. As explained in EPI’s Agenda to Raise America’s Pay, we can raise wages by eliminating the lower subminimum wage for tipped workers, updating overtime protections, strengthening workers’ ability to organize and negotiate with employers collectively, improving enforcement of labor laws, providing undocumented immigrant workers a path to citizenship, and ensuring monetary policy prioritizes full employment. These policies would help undo decades of wage stagnation that have prevented greater improvement in living standards for the vast majority of American households. They would also bring greater balance to the roles that the private and public sectors play in improving American workers’ quality of life.

I understand concerns employers have about raising the minimum wage, but maybe because I'm a softy or just because I have a conscience, I feel the needs of the less fortunate need to be taken into consideration before the needs of those who are already (relatively) prosperous.

[mister d]

You can't just say "does it eliminate one problem to create another" without specifying "for poor people" and "for rich people".

[Ryan]

That Silverman and Meyers liberal elitism is exactly what turns off people from voting Democrat. Ditto the bullshit with Lena Dunham and America Ferrera. I get all of their points, but chastising me like I don't? Fuck you.

If you're going to an un-brainwashing procedure, feel free to stay out of the viewing room.

[brian]

That Silverman and Meyers liberal elitism is exactly what turns off people from voting Democrat. Ditto the bullshit with Lena Dunham and America Ferrera. I get all of their points, but chastising me like I don't? Fuck you.

If you're going to an un-brainwashing procedure, feel free to stay out of the viewing room.

Yeah, you guys know Silverman was an avid Bernie SUPPORTER throughout the entire nomination process right?

[Brontoburglar]

That Silverman and Meyers liberal elitism is exactly what turns off people from voting Democrat. Ditto the bullshit with Lena Dunham and America Ferrera. I get all of their points, but chastising me like I don't? Fuck you.

If you're going to an un-brainwashing procedure, feel free to stay out of the viewing room.

Yeah, you guys know Silverman was an avid Bernie SUPPORTER throughout the entire nomination process right?

"Liberal elite" never fails to make me laugh/roll my eyes given the other party is the party of and for the rich.

[degenerasian]

That Silverman and Meyers liberal elitism is exactly what turns off people from voting Democrat. Ditto the bullshit with Lena Dunham and America Ferrera. I get all of their points, but chastising me like I don't? Fuck you.

If you're going to an un-brainwashing procedure, feel free to stay out of the viewing room.

Yeah, you guys know Silverman was an avid Bernie SUPPORTER throughout the entire nomination process right?

"Liberal elite" never fails to make me laugh/roll my eyes given the other party is the party of and for the rich.

Could elite mean - educated vs uneducated rather than rich vs poor?

[Brontoburglar]

That Silverman and Meyers liberal elitism is exactly what turns off people from voting Democrat. Ditto the bullshit with Lena Dunham and America Ferrera. I get all of their points, but chastising me like I don't? Fuck you.

If you're going to an un-brainwashing procedure, feel free to stay out of the viewing room.

Yeah, you guys know Silverman was an avid Bernie SUPPORTER throughout the entire nomination process right?

"Liberal elite" never fails to make me laugh/roll my eyes given the other party is the party of and for the rich.

Could elite mean - educated vs uneducated rather than rich vs poor?

Of course, though it's not nearly as simple as that.

[Brontoburglar]

Trump has said "France is no longer France" three times and talked "directly" to Russia in this press conference saying he hopes they find Hillary's deleted emails in the hack.

Jesus.

[Brontoburglar]

Also just said that Kaine was from New Jersey.

And that the Freddie Gray prosecutor should "indict herself."

[mister d]

"If it were important to know where the Dem VP candidate were from, I would have known, and I didn't, therefore it isn't."

[Pruitt]

I'm no legal expert - but isn't urging a foreign government to hack into classified State Department e-mails, I dunno, treason?

Trump Asks Russia To Steal Hillary's Missing E-Mails

[brian]

I'm no legal expert - but isn't urging a foreign government to hack into classified State Department e-mails, I dunno, treason?

Trump Asks Russia To Steal Hillary's Missing E-Mails

That's pretty much it. Of course, the press will treat him with kid gloves because...ratings.

[Pruitt]

Just astounding.

[Steve of phpBB]

I'm no legal expert - but isn't urging a foreign government to hack into classified State Department e-mails, I dunno, treason?

Trump Asks Russia To Steal Hillary's Missing E-Mails

That's pretty much it. Of course, the press will treat him with kid gloves because...ratings.

You guys don't think maybe he's joking?