2016 Presidential Race

[Johnnie]

[Steve of phpBB]

Actually seems implausible to me that the price is only $5M and it hasn't been paid yet. Forget political opponents, there are real estate speculators for whom it would be a good piece of business at that price...

Mark Cuban inquired about it. I wouldn't be shocked if he did it just because he has 'fuck you' money.

I could be wrong, but I would be surprised if there is really audio of Trump using the n-word. I think that is just the 2016 version of the Whitey Tape.

[sancarlos]

Actually seems implausible to me that the price is only $5M and it hasn't been paid yet. Forget political opponents, there are real estate speculators for whom it would be a good piece of business at that price...

Mark Cuban inquired about it. I wouldn't be shocked if he did it just because he has 'fuck you' money.

I could be wrong, but I would be surprised if there is really audio of Trump using the n-word. I think that is just the 2016 version of the Whitey Tape.

Anybody who really cares about racism isn't likely a Trump voter. An audio of Trump saying th n-word might cost him 30 votes.

[Gunpowder]

JFC, Facebook memes, it's not that Trump said the word "pussy". It's that he said you can just grab women by them if you're famous and that's how he rolls. He could have said mons pubis and it's still a really bad look.

[Shirley]

This is a pretty accurate summary.

http://waitbutwhy.com/2016/10/second-pr ... ebate.html

[Brontoburglar]

Melania Trump wore a pussy bow silk crepe de chine shirt last night

[tennbengal]

Actually seems implausible to me that the price is only $5M and it hasn't been paid yet. Forget political opponents, there are real estate speculators for whom it would be a good piece of business at that price...

Mark Cuban inquired about it. I wouldn't be shocked if he did it just because he has 'fuck you' money.

I could be wrong, but I would be surprised if there is really audio of Trump using the n-word. I think that is just the 2016 version of the Whitey Tape.

Anybody who really cares about racism isn't likely a Trump voter. An audio of Trump saying th n-word might cost him 30 votes.

Not about costing him votes from the crazed 38%. It's about guarding against any fence-sitters who might otherwise try and talk themselves into voting for him. Which is why the pussy audio was so damaging.

[Rush2112]

[brian]

When it's all said and done I'd be surprised if Trump gets more than 40 percent of the vote. This depends on a lot of factors like third-party percentages, what other bombshells are waiting out there, etc, but I think at this point he has basically no chance of being the next president.

Small sample size in one geographic area I'll grant you, but being back in Michigan for the last 10 days I've talked with a few people I know who have voted Republican at least somewhat regularly in the past and not a single one is planning to vote for Trump. I believe I know all of them well enough to suspect they're telling the truth and not just "hiding" support for Trump out of embarrassment or otherwise. A couple are sucking it up and voting for Hillary, a couple of others are planning to vote for Johnson and a couple others are unsure but say they can never vote for Trump (we discussed the option of leaving the vote for president blank I mentioned on Facebook a while back).

I just don't think at this point there's a scenario where a plurality of Americans can actually vote for him. As such, guessing Hillary more or less tries to just run out the clock so to speak. She doesn't really have a whole lot to gain by making any big pushes or even going after Trump too harshly. You started to see evidence of that in the debate last night. She defended herself at times, but mostly just let Trump's conspiracy theories and batshit crazy talk go with a sly smile.

[P.D.X.]

My favorite part was the "I'm not a crotch-grabber"/"Isis is chopping off heads" poetry slam mash-up.

[Gunpowder]

I'd like to think so, Brian, but I have met a ton of Trump supporters down here and they are not dumb by any stretch. They mainly hate Hillary Clinton that much. Hell, the guy who is commenting on my FB post that drunk 30 year olds talking about bangin' chix is the same as a fuckin' old man describing his ice-breaker fisting technique thinks Trump is a moron. But he also thinks the Clintons have killed like 200 people, sooooo is what it is.

[Johnnie]

A vote for Trump is definitely just the anti-Hillary, anti-Obama, anti-Democrat vote. He's isolated himself to a dying breed of white people (mostly) that identify as a threatened minority who cling to their bibles and guns. They are far worse than a 'basket of deplorables.' They know that they exist as a road block to progress and people like establishment Democrats.

Our societal downward spiral has brought us to this. After the election, when I'm certain that Trump loses, their base is going to be in uproar and the rhetoric will get louder. And the media will surely be there to put it on TV where they'll utter with the greatest lack of self awareness "How can these people act this way?"

[Steve of phpBB]

... they are not dumb by any stretch. ... But he also thinks the Clintons have killed like 200 people, sooooo is what it is.

?

[sancarlos]

I'd like to think so, Brian, but I have met a ton of Trump supporters down here and they are not dumb by any stretch. They mainly hate Hillary Clinton that much.

That is what I was trying to tell Bengal a couple pages back. Trump has a surprising amount of support from otherwise sensible people who just have an irrational hatred of Hillary Clinton.

My wife is out of town visiting her old, ailing father, and yesterday afternoon my daughter took over the house to work on a school project with several classmates. So, I joined some neighbors and walked down to the local art-and-wine-and copious-beer festival in downtown San Carlos. After we that completed that, my daughter joined us and we gathered at a neighbor's home for fajitas, and to watch the debate. Boy, the things you learn about your neighbors! One neighbor and his friend were belligerently, vocally, uncomfortably pro-Trump, or to put it more accurately, anti-Clinton. Jeebus, this neighbor has voiced many liberal comments in the past, so I was a bit shocked (especially considering that his parents were holocaust survivors and his friend is an immigrant from Sri Lanka). It was so uncomfortable for my daughter (who was rolling her eyes at me whenever these jokers made a comment) and I that I made an excuse and we left as soon as we could.

[tennbengal]

They can couch it how they want, they are basically racists at that point, if they are voting for Trump. Full stop.

[Rush2112]

They can couch it how they want, they are basically racists at that point, if they are voting for Trump. Full stop.

I was surprised when SanCarlos mentioned they were eating fajitas.

[Steve of phpBB]

They can couch it how they want, they are basically racists at that point, if they are voting for Trump. Full stop.

I dunno. There are people who really do favor the Republican approach to policy - lower taxes, less generous safety net, more emphasis on "traditional" values. Those people are still more likely to have things go their way if Trump is president, especially since he will almost certainly appoint standard issue Republican judges and agency heads. I don't think it's quite fair to say that if someone votes for Trump, he or she is a racist.

On the other hand, I do think it's fair to say that if someone is a racist, he or she is almost certain voting for Trump.

[Steve of phpBB]

Wow. Trump just used his "because you'd be in jail" clip for a promoted Twitter ad.

That is scary as hell. The damage that the Republicans have been doing to our political norms is frightening. It was bad enough in the 90s, but this is a whole new level with this stuff, the routine blatant lying, and the claims of a "rigged" election.

I am afraid that if Trump gets crushed, his people are only going to double down.

[Johnnie]

I am afraid that if Trump gets crushed, his people are only going to double down.

Uh, yea. You think this anger is just going to go away? It didn't after Obama's first or second term. We're headed down a path that will eventually encompass a downfall. It's just what nations do.

[mister d]

What do you think the average age of a core Trump voter is? Because I've hinged all future hopes on them dying off at a faster rate than they can kill off the country.

[degenerasian]

They can couch it how they want, they are basically racists at that point, if they are voting for Trump. Full stop.

I dunno. There are people who really do favor the Republican approach to policy - lower taxes, less generous safety net, more emphasis on "traditional" values. Those people are still more likely to have things go their way if Trump is president, especially since he will almost certainly appoint standard issue Republican judges and agency heads. I don't think it's quite fair to say that if someone votes for Trump, he or she is a racist.

On the other hand, I do think it's fair to say that if someone is a racist, he or she is almost certain voting for Trump.

There a couple of big questions here.

1. Are whites in America losing rights?
2. If yes, is fighting for those rights deemed racist?

Obviously racist people will vote for Trump. But people who answer yes to question 1 and no to question 2 are also voting Republican. This is where the above 'traditional values' comes in.

[Steve of phpBB]

2. If yes, is fighting for those rights deemed racist?

I think this question could go either way. Is it racist for whites to fight for what they see as their rights? Is it racist for blacks to fight for their rights? Is it only racist if the person doing the fighting is in the disadvantaged position? I don't think there are any good answers to any of that.

But I think there are people voting for Trump who aren't doing it "to fight for the rights of white people." They are doing it for the reasons I mentioned earlier. They just want judges to overturn Roe v Wade. Or overturn the gay marriage ruling. Or they believe that things will work better for them and/or for society if there are lower taxes, less regulation, etc.

Or, at least, that is what they are telling themselves.

[Joe K]

They can couch it how they want, they are basically racists at that point, if they are voting for Trump. Full stop.

I dunno. There are people who really do favor the Republican approach to policy - lower taxes, less generous safety net, more emphasis on "traditional" values. Those people are still more likely to have things go their way if Trump is president, especially since he will almost certainly appoint standard issue Republican judges and agency heads. I don't think it's quite fair to say that if someone votes for Trump, he or she is a racist.

On the other hand, I do think it's fair to say that if someone is a racist, he or she is almost certain voting for Trump.

There a couple of big questions here.

1. Are whites in America losing rights?
2. If yes, is fighting for those rights deemed racist?

Obviously racist people will vote for Trump. But people who answer yes to question 1 and no to question 2 are also voting Republican. This is where the above 'traditional values' comes in.

Anyone who actually thinks that white people are "losing rights" in this country has a pretty freaking skewed view of reality and race relations. Maybe you could say that someone who thinks that isn't "racist," but they certainly have a serious lack of awareness of the issues that racial and ethnic minorities face in this country.

[degenerasian]

They can couch it how they want, they are basically racists at that point, if they are voting for Trump. Full stop.

I dunno. There are people who really do favor the Republican approach to policy - lower taxes, less generous safety net, more emphasis on "traditional" values. Those people are still more likely to have things go their way if Trump is president, especially since he will almost certainly appoint standard issue Republican judges and agency heads. I don't think it's quite fair to say that if someone votes for Trump, he or she is a racist.

On the other hand, I do think it's fair to say that if someone is a racist, he or she is almost certain voting for Trump.

There a couple of big questions here.

1. Are whites in America losing rights?
2. If yes, is fighting for those rights deemed racist?

Obviously racist people will vote for Trump. But people who answer yes to question 1 and no to question 2 are also voting Republican. This is where the above 'traditional values' comes in.

Anyone who actually thinks that white people are "losing rights" in this country has a pretty freaking skewed view of reality and race relations. Maybe you could say that someone who thinks that isn't "racist," but they certainly have a serious lack of awareness of the issues that racial and ethnic minorities face in this country.

The majority (whites in this case) will view any form of affirmative action or racial quotas as 'losing rights'. They will argue that it's not that minorities should be shutout but it should be equal opportunity. Of course it sometimes takes quotas to get to equal opportunity but the majority never sees it like that.

[Joe K]

They can couch it how they want, they are basically racists at that point, if they are voting for Trump. Full stop.

I dunno. There are people who really do favor the Republican approach to policy - lower taxes, less generous safety net, more emphasis on "traditional" values. Those people are still more likely to have things go their way if Trump is president, especially since he will almost certainly appoint standard issue Republican judges and agency heads. I don't think it's quite fair to say that if someone votes for Trump, he or she is a racist.

On the other hand, I do think it's fair to say that if someone is a racist, he or she is almost certain voting for Trump.

There a couple of big questions here.

1. Are whites in America losing rights?
2. If yes, is fighting for those rights deemed racist?

Obviously racist people will vote for Trump. But people who answer yes to question 1 and no to question 2 are also voting Republican. This is where the above 'traditional values' comes in.

Anyone who actually thinks that white people are "losing rights" in this country has a pretty freaking skewed view of reality and race relations. Maybe you could say that someone who thinks that isn't "racist," but they certainly have a serious lack of awareness of the issues that racial and ethnic minorities face in this country.

The majority (whites in this case) will view any form of affirmative action or racial quotas as 'losing rights'. They will argue that it's not that minorities should be shutout but it should be equal opportunity. Of course it sometimes takes quotas to get to equal opportunity but the majority never sees it like that.

But this is exactly my point. Getting into the college of your choice or hired by your preferred employer is not what I would call a "right." So affirmative action doesn't really deny white people any rights. Moreover, white applicants are far more likely to have money and social connections that open other doors. If there's a building named after your uncle on campus, you're a lot more likely to get accepted than otherwise. If admissions were made completely race blind, true fairness would require also excluding things like family connnections, donations, etc.

[mister d]

I don't think you could get past (1) on a list of "white rights" without exposing some serious cultural issues.

[The Sybian]

When you've lost Arnold, you've lost 1992 America

As long as he has Chachi, he has the late 70's vote locked up.

[rass]

shackles

[The Sybian]

There a couple of big questions here.

1. Are whites in America losing rights?
2. If yes, is fighting for those rights deemed racist?

Obviously racist people will vote for Trump. But people who answer yes to question 1 and no to question 2 are also voting Republican. This is where the above 'traditional values' comes in.

Sure, some Whites believe they are losing Rights, but these people are fighting for the status quo which is clearly skewed in favor of Whites. They fight equality, because equality means losing a little bit to give to those with less advantages. I don't view that as losing Rights, but balancing to favor Whites less. This is similar to the "Christian Oppression" crap, allowing other religions equal footing is oppression in their minds, because they believe their religion deserves higher standing. For many, it's an issue of White Supremacy, because they view minorities as lesser people. That, IMO, is racism.

[A_B]

There a couple of big questions here.

1. Are whites in America losing rights?
2. If yes, is fighting for those rights deemed racist?

Obviously racist people will vote for Trump. But people who answer yes to question 1 and no to question 2 are also voting Republican. This is where the above 'traditional values' comes in.

Sure, some Whites believe they are losing Rights, but these people are fighting for the status quo which is clearly skewed in favor of Whites. They fight equality, because equality means losing a little bit to give to those with less advantages. I don't view that as losing Rights, but balancing to favor Whites less. This is similar to the "Christian Oppression" crap, allowing other religions equal footing is oppression in their minds, because they believe their religion deserves higher standing. For many, it's an issue of White Supremacy, because they view minorities as lesser people. That, IMO, is racism.

I dunno, that doesn't seem too clear.

[degenerasian]

There a couple of big questions here.

1. Are whites in America losing rights?
2. If yes, is fighting for those rights deemed racist?

Obviously racist people will vote for Trump. But people who answer yes to question 1 and no to question 2 are also voting Republican. This is where the above 'traditional values' comes in.

Sure, some Whites believe they are losing Rights, but these people are fighting for the status quo which is clearly skewed in favor of Whites. They fight equality, because equality means losing a little bit to give to those with less advantages. I don't view that as losing Rights, but balancing to favor Whites less. This is similar to the "Christian Oppression" crap, allowing other religions equal footing is oppression in their minds, because they believe their religion deserves higher standing. For many, it's an issue of White Supremacy, because they view minorities as lesser people. That, IMO, is racism.

Yes but I think quotas just upset people. For example if a law school has 100 spots and the white guy finishes 101 overall regardless of minority then it's still favoring white guys less but he's has to accept it. But if he's 91st overall but can't get in because they have to let in 20 minorities/low income/women/whatever then he will think he's lost rights. Another issue is that grades is not the only factor. There's GPA and test scores and volunteering and work experience and personality and quotas that make the admission process very subjective and yes if there were no quotas the selector would be very biased.

It's not just an American thing. In China the Beijing University must take this many students from other provinces and ethnic groups so if you go to high school in Beijing the competition is fiercer.

[Nonlinear FC]

The race issue is being discussed at too high a level. Trump's white supporters are uneducated (not being a dick, this has been proven through multiple polls.) They are the kind of people that are struggling in the current economy where you need to have a college degree OR find service-oriented jobs where you have to suck it up and just do the work. These people are from families in towns that were mostly manufacturing-based, so the steel mill or the car plant or whatever. It was their birth right to do fuck all in high school except play linebacker and drink beer and then graduate (or not) and go work at the factory on the edge of town.

Those days are gone, and these people are losing their minds. All you have to do is look at West Virginia to understand what's going on in uneducated white America. Used to be a firm, staunch Blue State, but has morphed into Trump Country over the last 10 years.

All this stuff about quotas and college and all that... Not the main issue.

[Joe K]

There a couple of big questions here.

1. Are whites in America losing rights?
2. If yes, is fighting for those rights deemed racist?

Obviously racist people will vote for Trump. But people who answer yes to question 1 and no to question 2 are also voting Republican. This is where the above 'traditional values' comes in.

Sure, some Whites believe they are losing Rights, but these people are fighting for the status quo which is clearly skewed in favor of Whites. They fight equality, because equality means losing a little bit to give to those with less advantages. I don't view that as losing Rights, but balancing to favor Whites less. This is similar to the "Christian Oppression" crap, allowing other religions equal footing is oppression in their minds, because they believe their religion deserves higher standing. For many, it's an issue of White Supremacy, because they view minorities as lesser people. That, IMO, is racism.

Yes but I think quotas just upset people. For example if a law school has 100 spots and the white guy finishes 101 overall regardless of minority then it's still favoring white guys less but he's has to accept it. But if he's 91st overall but can't get in because they have to let in 20 minorities/low income/women/whatever then he will think he's lost rights. Another issue is that grades is not the only factor. There's GPA and test scores and volunteering and work experience and personality and quotas that make the admission process very subjective and yes if there were no quotas the selector would be very biased.

It's not just an American thing. In China the Beijing University must take this many students from other provinces and ethnic groups so if you go to high school in Beijing the competition is fiercer.

The use of numerical quotas by public institutions has been unconstitutional for almost 40 years now. The Supreme Court reaffirmed this in 2013. So to the extent white people are upset about "quotas," they are woefully misinformed.

[Rex]

There's just a certain tribalism to white folks in the South and Appalachia that frankly isn't confined to poor or working class people. There's also a certain nihilism that separates them from other white folks and even other conservative white folks. So while I'm not saying that they are totally lacking in policy preferences and economic objectives, I believe we are overestimating how important those things are here.

[Johnnie]

[P.D.X.]

[Pruitt]

[degenerasian]

The race issue is being discussed at too high a level. Trump's white supporters are uneducated (not being a dick, this has been proven through multiple polls.) They are the kind of people that are struggling in the current economy where you need to have a college degree OR find service-oriented jobs where you have to suck it up and just do the work. These people are from families in towns that were mostly manufacturing-based, so the steel mill or the car plant or whatever. It was their birth right to do fuck all in high school except play linebacker and drink beer and then graduate (or not) and go work at the factory on the edge of town.

Those days are gone, and these people are losing their minds. All you have to do is look at West Virginia to understand what's going on in uneducated white America. Used to be a firm, staunch Blue State, but has morphed into Trump Country over the last 10 years.

All this stuff about quotas and college and all that... Not the main issue.

I think this discussion stemmed from sancarlos' friend who he thought was liberal in California but is supporting Trump.

and as for the tweets above. Trump is fighting the establishment, including his own party. He would be doing the same if he was running as a democrat. He really could run on either side.

[P.D.X.]

Nah. The stars aligned in a way for him to run as a Repub that simply aren't there for the Dems.

[rass]