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Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:25 am
by Avram
I'm not a gun owner, and have no desire to own one. I'm not a hunter either
I live in a suburban development, not a lot of crime, pretty safe.
I think the average household is entitled to two guns; a shotgun (or a bolt action rifle)with a limited magazine and a revolver (they never jam)
If you can't get out of trouble with that then nothing will get you out of trouble.
If you want to collect guns or hunt, great; join a gun club and your guns can be stored there, safe and sound.
Pretty restrictive, probably over the top, but I think that is a good place to start negotiations with the NRA backed representatives in the various legislatures.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:06 am
by Ryan
Johnnie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:42 amI'll even go further. Mandatory fucking training. You own a gun? Prove you can use it.
I'd say the sweet spot is "prove you can lock it away but have no idea how to use it"
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:12 am
by mister d
Johnnie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:20 amI then write about my nuance -- the story of a woman hearing for her life running into my home ...
I’m wondering how many times this exact scenario would end up with a dead woman when the “why I got my gun” story preceded it.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:32 am
by testuser2
Johnnie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:20 am
testuser2 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:29 am
Johnnie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:47 pm
I don't think it's particularly fair to lump all gun owners into one category, say "change your culture," and step back from it. There's definite nuance.
I'm done with going halfway and trying to appease someone that just wants to own a device that's only purpose is to injure or kill. All gun owners are the problem. It's because you do not want to give up your guns that allows everyone to be able to buy guns. Until more gun owners start realizing that they are supporting the violence it will not change.
I really don't see the point of owning a gun. Other than hunting why do you want one? Do you need it to protect you from other gun owners? Do you like target shooting? Get a bow. Crossbows are alot of fun or go play laser tag.
You take the first sentence of my post that deliberately references nuance and quote it.
I then write about my nuance -- the story of a woman hearing for her life running into my home and the fact that I deploy to warzones and don't get enough training -- and you say all gun owners are the problem.
And you end your post with exasperated whys of my ownership?
What the fuck, man.
It was a long post and I didn't want to quote all of it. Threads get long. The why still holds true. If you or the intruder did not have a gun then it's less likely it will be a lethal experience. I agree that guns will never be gone in this country. There are just too many. I'm tired of the onus being on kids or non-gun owners to come up with a solution that prevents us from getting shot. This problem was created by gun owners and should be solved by gun owners.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:51 am
by BSF21
DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:42 pm
BSF21 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:26 amI've gone back and forth on buying a handgun for a long time for a couple reasons. I like to target shoot. I am afraid that at some point there will be a change in which I may not be allowed to purchase one, and I do live in an area that has pockets around it prone to crime.
I'm out of town a fair bit and my fiance is here alone sometimes. It certainly is a nice safety blanket that I don't want to ever imagine using to protect myself or my family. That said, I don't want to purchase one because I don't want to support gun manufacturers with one penny of my money. I don't believe in how they market, I don't believe in the 2A message, etc.
Does your fiance want to have a gun in your home for her safety?
She is familiar with the one that currently resides here and it's operation in an emergency capacity. We've gone over plans of what to do in a worst case scenario. It's a 26" barrel 12ga shotgun and she's 5'4" 115 so it's not like she's gonna be wielding the thing like John Wick. It's a bird gun, nothing more. Not to mention it's loaded with target load shells, which would more than likely be non-lethal from anything but ~5-10 feet away.
As for the security system and dogs, I understand the thought process and how that might be safer, but I'm with Johnny there, it's a cost I wouldn't want to incur.
Again, some people see these things as toys they don't want taken away. Some see them as some divine right. I look at mine no differently than a chainsaw in my garage. It's a tool, nothing more. There are other ways to obtain the same results, this one is more efficient.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:53 am
by Sabo
Avram wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:25 amand a revolver (
they never jam)
This isn't true. I've had two revolvers jam on me while shooting them. In both instances, I was using factory-loaded ammunition when I got a bullet that didn't have a full powder charge. I pulled the trigger and the primer went off, which advanced the bullet far enough to bridge the small gap between the barrel and cylinder. The cylinder couldn't turn as a result, resulting in a jammed revolver.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:55 am
by A_B
Sabo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:53 am
Avram wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:25 amand a revolver (
they never jam)
This isn't true. I've had two revolvers jam on me while shooting them. In both instances, I was using factory-loaded ammunition when I got a bullet that didn't have a full powder charge. I pulled the trigger and the primer went off, which advanced the bullet far enough to bridge the small gap between the barrel and cylinder. The cylinder couldn't turn as a result, resulting in a jammed revolver.
And then the guy finished robbing Sabo's house!
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:24 am
by DSafetyGuy
HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:24 pm
The criminal liability part is kinda nuts. You could easily not know a gun has been stolen.
If I owned a gun, knowing that it was in an exact location would be paramount. I don't think it would be a big deal to confirm it was where it is supposed to be on a daily basis or doublecheck it is in the locked gun safe three times a week.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:25 am
by Johnnie
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:26 am
by mister d
DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:24 amIf I owned a gun, knowing that it was in an exact location would be paramount. I don't think it would be a big deal to confirm it was where it is supposed to be on a daily basis or doublecheck it is in the locked gun safe three times a week.
Right, but say you owned like a dozen guns. I'm sure you can imagine the hassle it would be to track all of them and not just your favorites.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:27 am
by DSafetyGuy
mister d wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:26 am
DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:24 amIf I owned a gun, knowing that it was in an exact location would be paramount. I don't think it would be a big deal to confirm it was where it is supposed to be on a daily basis or doublecheck it is in the locked gun safe three times a week.
Right, but say you owned like a dozen guns. Then you can imagine the hassle it would be to track all of them and not just your favorites.
Shit, good point, even counting to 12 is super hard.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:51 am
by degenerasian
I watched the Ken Burns Prohibition documentary and it was interesting to see the similarities from the two sides in that wedge issue. A lot of the stubbornness to change from zero tolerance from the the anti-saloon side mirrors the NRA. The NRA game plan is right out of the anti-saloon playbook.
In the end their refusal to move from their extreme zero tolerance stance caused previous supporters to change sides and and rally against them. "Ballots are like bayonets".
It is interesting to see things play out in a similar fashion.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:53 am
by degenerasian
Guy at work came up with an idea. Could you ban bullets? Or tax the hell out of them like cigarettes?
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:14 am
by EnochRoot
degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:53 am
Guy at work came up with an idea. Could you ban bullets? Or tax the hell out of them like cigarettes?
Nah. Bush snuck a rider into some bill circa 2005 that limits gun manufacturers from any liability of their product’s externalities. Pretty sure bullets fall under that one.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:23 am
by Steve of phpBB
Johnnie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:42 amAlso, I don't have to feed, walk, or have a permanent anchor with a shotgun.
Here is the reason why Ice Cube pack
Just in case the little punks try to jack
I can't put a motherfuckin pitbull
Under a coat, in the small of my back
So I gotta take my Beretta, and I betcha
It'll probably work, a 100 percent better
Cause it'll keep me out of danger
With sixteen in the clip and one in the chamber
So this goes to all y'all intruders
Beware of the owner, cause the owner is a shooter
I don't just wanna give your ass rabies
I'd rather have your ass pushing up daisies
And I can't do that with Benji
Rin Tin Tin, or Spuds McKenzie
Forget about a dog fool, he'll shit in the den
Nowadays, a gat is man's best friend
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:23 am
by degenerasian
The Sybian wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:33 pm
My point was that you have frequently given credence to the made up bullshit reasoning from the far right.
I give it credence because it's true that people believe this bullshit. Up to 40% of Americans believe it. This is the America that exists. This is what the Democrats can't dismiss and keep saying 'these are just stupid people" If you've got 40% of anything locked in, you're well on your way to winning an election where you don't even need to win the popular vote. The Liberals are not locked in because, they're Liberal! That's the definition of being Liberal, to consider new ideas. Any discussion on the 4 pillars are non starters for the right. As you said, it's viewed as destroying America.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:57 pm
by Steve of phpBB
Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:51 am
DaveInSeattle wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:21 am
Square Rob wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:43 am
Jerloma wrote: ↑Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:42 am
Everyone on the Facebooks is mad that the media is ignoring the "good guy with a gun" story from yesterday. Of course if you just Google the guy's name, you'll find stories from every major media outlet there is. Also, is a cop that shoots someone else with a gun really a hero or just a person doing his job?
Great job that guy! Still fucking bullshit that it even has to happen. And I'm sure the parents of the kid that the shooter killed don't give more than a single fuck.
I saw people on twitter yesterday (Joe Walsh being one) excited that this one was a 'win'. Hey, good guy with a gun got a bad guy with a gun! Yeah, go guns! But how many kids would have to die before it becomes not a win? I mean this shooter killed one, but that's not too many, right? What if he killed five before the school cop got him. Still a positive GGwaG story? Where's the line they will use?
I am so fucking tired of these debates, and so happy that so many youngsters have decided they want to change the world. Kids are awesome, and we should listen to them more.
Hell, I saw the same kind of thing after the church shooting in Texas...'The good guys with a gun stopped it!'. My reaction was '26 people killed isn't stopping it'.
Plus, okay, the school resource officer bravely stopped it. But because the kid was able to get a gun ...
One child is dead.
Two children were shot. That is a massively big deal. Something that will stay with them their entire lives.
Other children have gone through the fear of being there while the kid was shooting.
The school resource officer has to live with the fact that he shot one of the students he was hired to protect.
And, of course, the reason the resource officer was able to stop the shooting was because the kid "only" had a handgun and not an AR-15.
And, it apparently turns out that the school resource officer didn't actually kill the shooter. The shooter killed himself. And while he was doing that, the resource officer shot him. In the hand.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:32 pm
by mister d
But but but ... the resource officer also didn't kill (or even injure!) any students. So really he wins 1-0 there.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:59 pm
by Pruitt
mister d wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:32 pm
But but but ... the resource officer also didn't kill (or even injure!) any students. So really he wins 1-0 there.
But of course, a good guy with a gun can etc., etc., etc.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:28 pm
by P.D.X.
I'd love to ask a 2A nutter why they think foreign entities make donations to the NRA.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:17 am
by sancarlos
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:48 am
by A_B
Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:57 pm
And, it apparently turns out that the school resource officer didn't actually kill the shooter. The shooter killed himself. And while he was doing that, the resource officer shot him. In the hand.
Well, even police officer only even hit their target like 25-30% of the time. This isn't damning to the school resource guy IMO...what he did likely caused the shooter to kill himself. Absent the resource officer things likely would have been worse, no?
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:51 am
by Pruitt
A_B wrote: ↑Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:48 am
Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:57 pm
And, it apparently turns out that the school resource officer didn't actually kill the shooter. The shooter killed himself. And while he was doing that, the resource officer shot him. In the hand.
Well, even police officer only even hit their target like 25-30% of the time. This isn't damning to the school resource guy IMO...what he did likely caused the shooter to kill himself. Absent the resource officer things likely would have been worse, no?
That's a good point.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:52 am
by mister d
Is that true or did he go to school with the intent of a murder-suicide?
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:54 am
by A_B
mister d wrote: ↑Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:52 am
Is that true or did he go to school with the intent of a murder-suicide?
Even if he did (and I can't speak to the ammunition count at the time he shot himself) being approached by an armed defender would potentially have accelerated that plan.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:00 am
by brian
All that aside, I don't think many people are against the idea of an armed presence in schools assuming they're trained peace officers. Here, because we're the third-largest school district in the country, the school district literally has its own police force. They're not onsite in every school, but I'm pretty sure every high school has at least one officer onsite at all time and possibly the middle schools as well.
Even in smaller districts, it's possible to have someone at the equivalent of a sheriff's deputy but that costs money of course. What I don't want and what I don't think anyone (except the NRA nuts) wants is just some kind of pistol-spinning Pinkerton doofus who makes $12/hour "guarding" schools.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:03 am
by mister d
I don't agree, but even if I did I'd probably be against it on principle knowing it means school tax dollars will go to gun manufacturers to arm the guards.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:19 am
by brian
Yeah, I guess there's something to be said for students not having to feel like they're in a prison with guards while they're trying to learn. The other issue has to do with the inherent nature of law enforcement and the tendency to treat students/people of color different than white students. But universities with thousands of students have their own police forces, so it doesn't seem ridiculous to have one armed police officer manning a school that can have 2500 students (or more in some places).
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:23 am
by A_B
A couple of schools here in town have actual Police stationed in the schools as security and have had for some time.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:42 am
by mister d
I'm not sure I'd trust that would be protection versus policing.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:22 pm
by tennbengal
I’m against it.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:32 pm
by Johnnie
It's amazing how fucked America's culture is when you need armed guards in school.
Greatest country in the world, my ass.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:59 pm
by Avram
Johnnie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:32 pm
It's amazing how fucked America's culture is when you need armed guards in school.
Greatest country in the world, my ass.
I guess it is better in Europe. Only the Jewish schools need armed guards.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:36 pm
by Pruitt
Johnnie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:32 pm
It's amazing how fucked America's culture is when you need armed guards in school.
Greatest country in the world, my ass.
30 years ago, if you'd been told that this would be the reality, you'd have thought that there's no way people will let it happen.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:39 pm
by mister d
"The president will be in the pocket of Russia and he'll be beloved by the conservatives and also it'll be Donald Trump."
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:56 am
by Johnnie
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:06 am
by mister d
I'd love time travel just to let 13 year old her know what she's going to become.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:14 am
by Pruitt
mister d wrote: ↑Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:06 am
I'd love time travel just to let 13 year old her know what she's going to become.
Assholeish adults were very often assholeish kids.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:18 am
by mister d
I grappled with what age to use. Probably should have gone in the "posts you just delete" bucket. Thanks.
Re: The Mass Shootings Thread
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:41 am
by DaveInSeattle
Pruitt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:14 am
mister d wrote: ↑Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:06 am
I'd love time travel just to let 13 year old her know what she's going to become.
Assholeish adults were very often assholeish kids.
Yep...from Ingraham's wiki page:
As editor of The Dartmouth Review, she had a reporter go undercover at an LGBTQ meeting on Dartmouth campus and published the transcript including the attendees.[8] She was criticised for forcibly outing them to friends and family.[8] At the start of the meeting, an oath of confidentiality was read whereby participants in the meeting were assured that information from the meeting would not be made public.[8] Ingraham claimed confidentiality did not apply, because the meeting had been advertised, and defended the outing of the gay students as a "freedom of the press issue".[8]
During her time at the Dartmouth Review, Ingraham was known to harbor homophobic views.[9] In 1997, she apologized for her homophobia.[9] Jeffrey Hart, the faculty adviser for The Dartmouth Review described Ingraham as having "the most extreme anti-homosexual views imaginable", claiming "she went so far as to avoid a local eatery where she feared the waiters were homosexual."[10]