DraftKings and FanDuel: Irrational anger?

bapo! · Post by **bapo!** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:00 am

Or is my anger justified?

In recent years, there had been a slow creep in fantasy visibility, but this year has been unbearable. I know that all of this stuff exists because of money, and advertisers have to monetize everything they can, but there's something about DraftKings and FanDuel that really irks me.

On Sunday mornings, sometimes I half-watch ESPN's NFL pregame shows. Matthew Berry, ESPN's fantasy guy, used to be an occasional nuisance, but now he's a regular panelist, more important than Chris Mortensen and Adam Schefter. Berry is on the DraftKings payroll, and DraftKings is a major ESPN partner/advertiser, so the DraftKings brand is increasingly integrated into ESPN's broadcasts. If Stephen A. Smith's guest appearances weren't enough to drive me away, then the non-stop fantasy talk surely will be.

(And this isn't even getting into the companies themselves. They seem a little too good to be true.)

Does this bother anybody else as much as it bothers me? Or am I just acting like a little bitch who hates freedom and capitalism and America?

L-Jam3 · Post by **L-Jam3** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:09 am

If two private companies found a loophole to permit a lottery, and like those two, inundated themselves into so much advertising that they literally showed up on a pop-up during my morning porn session, then yes, your anger could be justified.

But if you can't beat them, join them, right? Invest in Fox and Disney who are heavy investors in them, and then make like Pac-Man at the strip club when you sell for a profit.

DaveInSeattle · Post by **DaveInSeattle** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:15 am

What's great is listening to podcasts by comedians like Doug Benson and Marc Maron and they have to do DraftKings ad copy, when neither of them is the least bit interested in sports in general, or fantasy sports in particular.

On a recent podcast, Maron admitted as such, and said that he didn't even know it was football season.

And as someone on Twitter wrote, "Pretty sure you can type any random word into DraftKings/FanDuel for their free promo offer"...

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:16 am

I don't watch ESPN, so I get to miss a lot of this stuff.

But it irritates the hell out of me, and not really because the product they push is being sold with lies (or at least with massively inflated statistics), but it's the anger I feel whenever the same ad is run over and over.

Post by **Sabo** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:18 am

Hey, if you insult Draft Kings, you insult the Pope. Don't insult the Pope.

howard · Post by **howard** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:07 pm

bapo! wrote: Does this bother anybody else as much as it bothers me? Or am I just acting like a little bitch who hates freedom and capitalism and America?

It bothers me a lot, but just as an annoyance. One or both these companies are owned or fueled by hedge funds, so the ultra capitalism that these clowns bring, powered by their access to artificially low interest rates and artificially low taxes just adds these gambling sites to the long list of misallocated 'capital' (that isn't capital at all) and outrageous bullcrap that surrounds us.

At least it isn't prescription drug price gouging.

DaveInSeattle · Post by **DaveInSeattle** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:14 pm

Today's Jambaroo on Deadspin has a long piece about playing on Draft Kings.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:14 pm

Bloomberg has a good piece on it

So does big daddy drew

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:20 pm

DaveInSeattle wrote:What's great is listening to podcasts by comedians like Doug Benson and Marc Maron and they have to do DraftKings ad copy, when neither of them is the least bit interested in sports in general, or fantasy sports in particular.

On a recent podcast, Maron admitted as such, and said that he didn't even know it was football season.

And as someone on Twitter wrote, "Pretty sure you can type any random word into DraftKings/FanDuel for their free promo offer"...

Bill Burr's podcast did Draft Kings ads for a few weeks and then stopped suddenly. He kept remarking "How is this not gambling? I thought gambling on the internet was illegal." They stopped advertising with him. It caused some problems. However, I think they made up and buried the hatchet. But I still haven't heard an ad from them on his podcast since.

And I really don't care to either. If it's not Me Undies, it's not worth listening to.

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:25 pm

Just got draft king spam on account of being a Timbers STH (free 1-day fantasy soccer!). Thought I could steer clear of this nonsense.

Post by **Shirley** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:56 pm

You know, for the most part, I think it's kind of silly that it's illegal to gamble on sports in most of the US.

But then, I see how much asian and UK betting sites advertise and how annoying they are (it seems that half of the teams in the EPL are sponsored by obscure (to me) betting sites), and then how much these FanDuel/DraftKings wankers are advertising ... and I think about changing my mind.

Is it possible to have gambling without all of the constant advertising about it? (actually state lotteries are as bad as well)

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:58 pm

Shirley wrote:Is it possible to have gambling without all of the constant advertising about it?

Works fine for liquor and smokes.

DaveInSeattle · Post by **DaveInSeattle** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:02 pm

Shirley wrote:You know, for the most part, I think it's kind of silly that it's illegal to gamble on sports in most of the US.

But then, I see how much asian and UK betting sites advertise and how annoying they are (it seems that half of the teams in the EPL are sponsored by obscure (to me) betting sites), and then how much these FanDuel/DraftKings wankers are advertising ... and I think about changing my mind.

Is it possible to have gambling without all of the constant advertising about it? (actually state lotteries are as bad as well)

Australia has legal sports gambling (you can bet using arcade type machines at a lot of pubs) and I don't recall seeing much advertising for it.

bapo! · Post by **bapo!** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:38 pm

Shirley wrote:But then, I see how much asian and UK betting sites advertise and how annoying they are (it seems that half of the teams in the EPL are sponsored by obscure (to me) betting sites), and then how much these FanDuel/DraftKings wankers are advertising ... and I think about changing my mind.

If one of the EPL teams uses FanDuel as a sponsor, I'll buy that jersey. Unless it's Watford, because fuck Watford.

bapo! · Post by **bapo!** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:44 pm

Et tu, Grantland?

The headline of the most recent Grantland post: 'The Grantland NFL Podcast': Week 4 Preview and Draft Kings Rosters. So, even Grantland has been infected by this scourge. (Magary's post touched on this yesterday, as well.) And, since it's late Friday afternoon, that headline will hang at the top of the page all weekend.

Post by **Sabo** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:59 pm

bapo! wrote:If one of the EPL teams uses FanDuel as a sponsor, I'll buy that jersey. Unless it's Watford, because fuck Watford.

I want to get an AFC Wimbledon shirt just because Football Manager is their sponsor.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:18 pm

Ummmm... trouble brewing in america's newest industry

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/06/sport ... f=cta&_r=0

howard · Post by **howard** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:37 pm

If the games are straight, what kind of data would provide an edge? I'm confused. How does a craps pit boss have an advantage playing in an honest game at another casino?

eta:

In this case, the data that was leaked by the DraftKings employee, Ethan Haskell, showed what particular players were most used in all lineups submitted to the site’s Millionaire Maker contests. Usually, that data is not released until the lineups for all games are finalized. Getting it early, however, is of great advantage to make tactical decisions, especially when your opponents do not have the information at all.

I just don't get these games.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:49 pm

Yeah, I'm a little skeptical here. The inside information is stuff like the most popular lineups? Anyone can go on ESPN, Yahoo, CBS, etc. and see every player's % owned and % started and get a general sense of how the market values these guys. I thought we were talking about real information, like who is hiding an injury, and what running back is banging the quarterback's wife.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:52 pm

I dunno either.

Anyone play these things?

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:51 pm

Rex wrote:Yeah, I'm a little skeptical here. The inside information is stuff like the most popular lineups? Anyone can go on ESPN, Yahoo, CBS, etc. and see every player's % owned and % started and get a general sense of how the market values these guys. I thought we were talking about real information, like who is hiding an injury, and what running back is banging the quarterback's wife.

I believe they are based on weekly salary caps, you can't just pick studs. If you pick the most picked players, I would think you can't win much money. I don't know much about how it works though.

wlu_lax6 · Post by **wlu_lax6** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:52 pm

I am not sure about this but I do know that during my time at Microsoft, the folks working on search stuff were using that information to dominate the Hollywood Stock Exchange (i think it was all fake money back in the day).

Knowing what other people have picked is a tremendous advantage. Having the consensus pick or the ability to steal consistent winners plays should help improve performance.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:56 pm

Think of it like everyone submitting their NCAA tourney pools except you, then you get to review them all before filling yours out.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:32 pm

No, these guys are not seeing who their actual opponents are picking, at least not according to that article. They are getting some good general market intelligence by virtue of their jobs at another site, which at the end of the day might not be all that different from the sort of information you can get by scouring public fantasy sites. So it's more similar to being able to see who are the most popular bracket picks worldwide on ESPN, which you can do.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:27 am

mister d wrote:Think of it like everyone submitting their NCAA tourney pools except you, then you get to review them all before filling yours out.

With the extra layer that Austin Peay and Weber State have a realistic chance at advancing way farther than Duke and Arizona, and they cost you way less to pick.

wlu_lax6 · Post by **wlu_lax6** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:22 am

Why it is a huge deal
http://www.techinsider.io/what-the-fant ... al-2015-10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:30 am

Rex wrote:No, these guys are not seeing who their actual opponents are picking, at least not according to that article. They are getting some good general market intelligence by virtue of their jobs at another site, which at the end of the day might not be all that different from the sort of information you can get by scouring public fantasy sites. So it's more similar to being able to see who are the most popular bracket picks worldwide on ESPN, which you can do.

His opponents were a huge pool of blind picks, not a 10 team league. The ESPN analogy doesn't work because not everyone could see it, just him and maybe some coworkers or friends. The pool at large had to go in blind and was likely duplicating all over itself.

Brontoburglar · Post by **Brontoburglar** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:54 am

mister d wrote:
Rex wrote:No, these guys are not seeing who their actual opponents are picking, at least not according to that article. They are getting some good general market intelligence by virtue of their jobs at another site, which at the end of the day might not be all that different from the sort of information you can get by scouring public fantasy sites. So it's more similar to being able to see who are the most popular bracket picks worldwide on ESPN, which you can do.
His opponents were a huge pool of blind picks, not a 10 team league. The ESPN analogy doesn't work because not everyone could see it, just him and maybe some coworkers or friends. The pool at large had to go in blind and was likely duplicating all over itself.

Yup. And you need a unique team to win that money.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:29 am

mister d wrote:
Rex wrote:No, these guys are not seeing who their actual opponents are picking, at least not according to that article. They are getting some good general market intelligence by virtue of their jobs at another site, which at the end of the day might not be all that different from the sort of information you can get by scouring public fantasy sites. So it's more similar to being able to see who are the most popular bracket picks worldwide on ESPN, which you can do.
His opponents were a huge pool of blind picks, not a 10 team league. The ESPN analogy doesn't work because not everyone could see it, just him and maybe some coworkers or friends. The pool at large had to go in blind and was likely duplicating all over itself.

No, he could not see the pool. That's not what the article is saying. The article is saying he had access to his own company's research/data which was useful to him in guessing what players might be picked at the other companies' sites. Not that he had the other site's info.

And I did something I should have done earlier given the general unreliability of any NYT article with a loaded word like "unregulated" in the headline--I looked at the source article. According to the source article, there's reason to believe that the guy actually didn't have the data before the rosters at the other site locked. (To be fair, the article did lend some support to the idea that the information could be valuable to someone who did have it, by showing that the ownership percentages across the two sites are similar.)

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:36 am

And its also been pointed out that the overlap is almost perfect in terms of pricing and picks. Access to his own translates to the other.

bapo! · Post by **bapo!** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:59 am

The New York state attorney general is investigating, so it appears that this story is going to have legs. I want this to drag on, if only to see how the media covers it.

A lot of blogs and media outlets that don't have a financial stake in these companies are itching for a scandal. It allows them to punch up at ESPN. (And, not that they need it, but it gives them more reason to go after Jerry Jones and Robert Kraft.) Deadspin is probably hyperventilating from the excitement.

Bob Ley and 'Outside the Lines' did a fair report on this yesterday afternoon. Then I caught a few minutes of 'Sportscenter.' The anchor was interviewing Darren Rovell. As they were wrapping up, the anchor said, 'So for now, this is dead in the water, situation resolved.' Um, not quite.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:17 am

DraftKings employees have won 0.3 percent of all the prize money FanDuel has ever handed out.

As of last year, there were 80 employees at DraftKings.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:18 am

ESPN hedging its bets so to speak...

LAS VEGAS — ESPN is cutting sponsored DraftKings content from within shows but continues broadcasting commercials from the daily fantasy sports site. That’s according to ESPN Outside the Lines host Bob Ley, who revealed the shift during his show Tuesday.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:25 am

DaveInSeattle wrote: On a recent podcast, Maron admitted as such, and said that he didn't even know it was football season.

In his latest podcast, he stepped up the comments. The whole spot was saying he has no idea why they advertise with him since he has no interest, or why they stay with him since he puts in "no effort, maybe negative effort" and provides no help to them whatsoever. I wonder if they are trying to see how far they can go before getting pushback.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:40 am

OK, I guess Bill Burr and Draft Kings didn't kiss and make up. He rants from about 13:30 on starting with a chat about Pete Rose and segueing into Draft Kings talk. (But his podcasts are always awesome.)

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(Are we unable to embed SoundCloud links? Or is my computer just being slow?)

Baloney · Post by **Baloney** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:45 pm

While the Fantasy Sports Trade Association is new to Tallahassee, they are already wise to the money game, donating $10,000 each in the last two weeks to four of the biggest players in the state's discussion on gambling.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/s ... da/2249079" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:17 pm

Turned on the radio in the car, and a Draft Kings commercial is on. Switch stations to a Fan Duel commercial. Switched to ipod and reminded myself why I never listen to radio.

Post by **brian** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:38 pm

Nevada Gaming Commission orders daily fantasy sites to cease and desist inside NV today. Something tells me these sites might have a very brief life nationwide.

Far as I know, Nevada is actually the first state to block DFS sites since this brouhaha started.

howard · Post by **howard** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:34 pm

Guess they forgot to pay off somebody.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:58 pm

The lesson, as always: don't mess with the big casinos (or big anything).