NHL 2015 - Weeks 1-27

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:19 pm

This is sustainable, right?

Had Kane tied the game, I would have been in a massive rage like 58 minutes into the season. That's bad pacing.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:08 am

Ah, the Sharks' performance tonight put me in the right frame of mind for a happy, restful night's sleep.

bapo! · Post by **bapo!** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:59 am

Weekly hockey threads? That's rather ambitious. Good luck with that.

A couple of requests, boys. First, can we keep the fantasy stuff in the fantasy threads? Separation of church and state, etc.

Second, in a general sense, can we have more hockey threads this year? Not everything deserves its own thread, of course, but not everything should be buried in the general threads. There's already a Patrick Kane thread, and a Connor McDavid thread. We need more of these, if only because I'm more likely to read them and post in them. Or, if you're tired of me hijacking the hockey threads to talk about porn memoirs and Belgian beer, then by all means, just let this be the only hockey thread started this year.

Anyway, happy pucking, everybody. Keep your sticks on the ice.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:07 am

We should have a separate Kane thread for people to react the first time he faces their team.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:08 am

How do the Penguins look this year?

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:09 am

Somehow even more imbalanced than in the past.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:51 am

mister d wrote:We should have a separate Kane thread for people to react the first time he faces their team.

I wonder how long it'll be - if ever - before I feel comfortable cheering for him again.

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:06 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
mister d wrote:We should have a separate Kane thread for people to react the first time he faces their team.
I wonder how long it'll be - if ever - before I feel comfortable cheering for him again.

Based on what exactly?

Obviously there's a cloud around what is happening here, but the longer this draws out and with all the shenanigans that have happened on the accusatory side, I'm not buying shit until something else comes out. Every article I saw at the beginning had "sources" no one wanted to put their name on it. He's not been charged, which is not exactly hard to do in a case like this.

If something happened, and oftentimes something does happen and it gets swept under a rug, he should be gone for good and forever, but I'm just not buying it right now.

Also, Trevor Daley has replaced Rosival as my least favorite defenseman in Chicago. Man did he have a bad game last night.

Post by **brian** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:11 pm

Not like this is an isolated incident with Kane though.

ETA: Not any kind of other reports of violence against women obvs, but still....

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:48 pm

BSF21 wrote:Obviously there's a cloud around what is happening here, but the longer this draws out and with all the shenanigans that have happened on the accusatory side, I'm not buying shit until something else comes out. Every article I saw at the beginning had "sources" no one wanted to put their name on it. He's not been charged, which is not exactly hard to do in a case like this.

Why don't people have the same level of skepticism about DUIs or assaults or even domestic violence cases that they do with famous people rape accusations? Like is it actual "women lie about this all the time" or more of a "this is somehow more horrible so I really just don't want to believe it"?

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:36 pm

mister d wrote:Why don't people have the same level of skepticism about DUIs or assaults or even domestic violence cases that they do with famous people rape accusations? Like is it actual "women lie about this all the time" or more of a "this is somehow more horrible so I really just don't want to believe it"?

A rape accusation is often just based on one person's word against another's. And while I wouldn't say "women lie about this all the time," as long as there is a reasonable possibility that the woman is lying, one should always be skeptical. And where the alleged rapist is rich and famous, and thus would have an incentive to pay significant money to settle any claim, there is a reasonable possibility that the woman is lying.

Fifteen years ago, the son of one of my friends was charged with rape. He and his friends went to a local Denny's for breakfast food late on a Friday night, he hit on the waitress, and she came over to their place after her shift ended. She left the next morning, leaving a note with her name and cell phone number on it. That evening, he was arrested and was ultimately charged and prosecuted. Because my friend could afford a good lawyer, he was acquitted.

The only physical evidence was some kind of bruising around her genitals. The prosecution had an expert who testified that the bruising was evidence of non-consensual sex. The defense argued that it was not, that it resulted from using a lotion as lube that really was not supposed to be used for that. The defense argued that the accuser made up the story to get out of being in trouble for staying home so late, and that once she started with that story she was swept along the path. The defense also argued that if she really had been raped, she would not have left the note.

This is a kid that had not been in any kind of serious trouble before, though he was something of a knucklehead. And he has not been in any kind of trouble since, that I know of.

I have no idea what really happened. But the fact that such an uncertain situation could end up with someone imprisoned and labeled as a felon and rapist for life is really scary to me. But so is the thought that someone could get away with rape as long as there were no witnesses.

So I don't think that women lie about this all the time, but I do think that you never really know.

My discomfort with rooting for Kane is not really based on assuming he's a rapist. It's a combination of (i) he may be a rapist and I'd hate to root for him if he is, and (ii) I really hate when sports fans "rally around our guy" whenever an athlete is accused of a crime, and I don't want any part of that.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:49 pm

I wonder how that story would have been told if you'd been friends with the waitresses' father instead of the guy's father.

howard · Post by **howard** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:51 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:Because my friend was white, he was acquitted.

fify

(I keed, i keed.)

Post by **brian** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:01 pm

I have a similar story involving my wife's cousin which was actually detailed in some version of the Swamp years back, but in this case he didn't even know the woman doing the accusing it was just a case of mistaken identity. But because he had a minor rap sheet (bar fight type stuff) and was in the wrong place at the wrong time (he was living a few houses down from where the assault occurred), he was arrested and charged. Fortunately the woman in question admitted in court during some kind of pre-trial hearing that it wasn't in fact him who assaulted her. But it could have really gone bad.

Not exactly apples to apples for Steve's story or in this case, but so in Kane's case or in any case like this, yeah I get that it's certainly possible nothing happened. I don't think he should be suspended (at this point as things stand) or anyone should feel bad about rooting for him necessarily, but I get both viewpoints if someone felt potentially queasy about it.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:02 pm

I guess what I hate the most, beyond the fucked up nature of the "my favorite forward doesn't need to rape chicks" rallying, is that these are treated as coin flips when they are absolutely not coin flips. Statistically, at most, 1 out of 10 reporting are lying. That means 9 out of 10 are not only victims, but now under scrutiny for any possible motivation hypothesis an outsider or a lawyer can come up with. And by that standard of "this seems like potential motivation", its more or less impossible to believe an accusation against a rich person or a celebrity, because the hypothetical motivation can be money. And if not money, she's ashamed. Or looking for revenge. Or whatever.

And if the claim was he beat the shit out of a cop, but there were no witnesses so it was a he said / s/he said argument, do you think he's playing in the NHL last night?

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:05 pm

brian wrote:I have a similar story involving my wife's cousin which was actually detailed in some version of the Swamp years back, but in this case he didn't even know the woman doing the accusing it was just a case of mistaken identity. But because he had a minor rap sheet (bar fight type stuff) and was in the wrong place at the wrong time (he was living a few houses down from where the assault occurred), he was arrested and charged. Fortunately the woman in question admitted in court during some kind of pre-trial hearing that it wasn't in fact him who assaulted her. But it could have really gone bad.

Not exactly apples to apples for Steve's story or in this case, but so in Kane's case or in any case like this, yeah I get that it's certainly possible nothing happened. I don't think he should be suspended (at this point as things stand) or anyone should feel bad about rooting for him necessarily, but I get both viewpoints if someone felt potentially queasy about it.

I do too. I refuse to give the guy a pass because he plays for my team. But I'm not about to stretch punching a cabbie when you're 22 years old into somehow assuming that makes you predisposed to sexual assault. Fact is it's a he said/she said. You can go all different kinds of ways with it, but until someone wants to put it out there and say "this is who told me what happened, ask them" or the DA files charges, this holds no more water with me than telling me Andrew Luck went out and bought an iPhone 6.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:06 pm

Yeah, that line of thinking is a pretty massive problem.

Post by **brian** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:10 pm

Not going to pretend I know most of the ins and outs of this particular case, but if your (the royal you) argument is that he's a target because of his money, his money works in his favor too since if he was you or I facing the same kind of scrutiny he's also likely been arrested and charged. That much I'd about guarantee.

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:11 pm

mister d wrote:Yeah, that line of thinking is a pretty massive problem.

I don't follow. You're saying that because he punched a cabbie when he was 22 he is predisposed to this behavior and she should treat him differently?

Should we treat every he said/she said situation this way? Suspend him regardless without a charge or an arrest?

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:12 pm

I don't give a shit that he punched a cabbie, I'm saying treating women reporting rapes as "pfft, he said / she said", when we treat no other demographic of crime victim that way is a problem.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:13 pm

mister d wrote:I wonder how that story would have been told if you'd been friends with the waitresses' father instead of the guy's father.

Me, too.

But it is not quite an equivalent situation. If she really was raped, but the perpetrator was acquitted, that's an injustice. But it's nothing like the injustice of an innocent guy being wrongly convicted. (If someone is wrongly acquitted and then goes on to commit other crimes, that is different. But as far as I know, my friend's son has never been in any kind of trouble since.)

I don't know if your statistical approach really works when the alleged rapist is rich and famous and thus could be a target of a civil claim that would bring the accuser enough money to be set for life. There's no way to measure that.

With my friend's son's situation, that factor wasn't in play. Nor did she have any other kind of motive to harm him by making a false accusation. So who the hell knows.

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:20 pm

mister d wrote:I don't give a shit that he punched a cabbie, I'm saying treating women reporting rapes as "pfft, he said / she said", when we treat no other demographic of crime victim that way is a problem.

It's not women reporting rapes that I'm pushing off as pffft. I'm saying that this is a tough situation in which there is apparently no other evidence than just that and asking what you're supposed to do about it. I can't see why if there was any merit to the case, when the event occurred over a month ago, why a charge has not been filed or an arrest has not been made. They're not going to uncover anything new here. When there has been a bold attempt to deceive the public by someone in the accuser's camp and the lawyer representing them drops them, my gut tells me that something doesn't smell right.

I don't want to belittle any woman who has been a victim. And when it first came out I was on the "if he's charged, he ought to be out of the league" wagon, but we've got more things that have happened now. This is not bare bones, happened over the weekend, narrative at this point.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:26 pm

Ah, I see you guys have fallen into Delaware's sanctimonious little trap of not being able to say anything that doesn't reflect the worst case scenario without being a rapist sympathizer. Good luck with that.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:32 pm

Oh cool, J-Lo is here to do his "99% of the time I'm a ranting tornado of moral judgments and 1% of the time I sure do love that big armed #7" routine.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:39 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:With my friend's son's situation, that factor wasn't in play. Nor did she have any other kind of motive to harm him by making a false accusation. So who the hell knows.

Not you specifically, but no one wants to believe anyone they know is a rapist, so even if you fully accept the 9 out of 10 statistic, your 1 is the outlier. I'm sure I'd be the exact same way if a male friend of mine was accused and denied it. And I'd fully believe it if a female friend reported she was raped. Being too close is one thing, but taking an objective step back and saying a 90/10 situation is "he said / she said" is pretty fucked and probably does more to perpetuate the status quo than any actual pathology.

rass · Post by **rass** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:47 pm

So, how's everyone's fantasy team doing so far???

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:50 pm

I know, god dammit. I nearly posted an apology to our boy a few posts ago.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:57 pm

Rape stats do make you think though. If it's true that 1 in every 6 women in this country have been the victim of a rape, and I'm assuming that doesn't correlate at all with the # of rapists in jail, there are are literally rapists among us everywhere. I know that one guy can rape multiple women but even if it's like 1 in 20, there has to be a bunch of people I know who have raped someone. Hell, it's mathematically probable that more than one of us here has raped someone.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:02 pm

Aw, ham sandwich?

bapo! · Post by **bapo!** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:08 pm

rass wrote:So, how's everyone's fantasy team doing so far???

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:07 am

Anti Niemi got two assists in his first game.

Lots of goals the first two nights. Hope it continues.

rass · Post by **rass** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:15 am

degenerasian wrote:Anti Niemi got two assists in his first game.

And a shutout. Apparently the first time that's ever happened.

bapo! · Post by **bapo!** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:59 am

degenerasian wrote:Lots of goals the first two nights.

The Oilers' only goal was an own-goal. Nugent-Hopkins lost the face-off (never actually touched the puck), then a St. Louis defenseman threw it right off a teammate and into the goal.

I'm watching a replay of the game now, and there's just no there there. Damn it, Oilers. You do this to me every year.

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:02 am

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:51 am

travzilla · Post by **travzilla** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:09 am

Bruins weren't as bad as 6-2 sounds, but their defence looked scary bad, and I don't think getting Chara back will be enough to fix it (hence the Byfuglien trade rumours).

5 minutes of 3-on-3 OT is just awesome. As a fan of a playoff bubble team I get so angry when conference rivals play 3-point games, but I still just want to see every game go to overtime.

Also I think coaches challenges are stupid, even though both of them have worked so far. Reviewing for goalie interference isn't so bad, but going back for offsides is just dumb.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:33 am

Byfuglien to Boston would be about as great as I can feel about a good player heading to a team I hate.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:35 am

mister d wrote:Byfuglien to Boston would be about as great as I can feel about a good player heading to a team I hate.

Yeah, Buff and the Bruins do seem to go together.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:41 am

Aside from that one thing.

Post by **brian** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:28 pm

Story about McDavid by a guy I went to J-School with.