Fusillade à Paris

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:47 pm

Shooting(s) in Paris, more than ten dead. Reports of three separate locations of gunfire, plus an explosion near the football stadium where France and Germany are playing a friendly, and President Hollandé was in attendance. Also a report of hostages taken at a concert hall. Very early reports, details to follow.

eta: Death count up to 18, as many as six gunmen at multiple locations. President Hollandé was safely evacuated from stadium, match went on.

Post by **brian** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:59 pm

howard wrote:Shooting(s) in Paris, more than ten dead. Reports of three separate locations of gunfire, plus an explosion near the football stadium where France and Germany are playing a friendly, and President Hollandé was in attendance. Also a report of hostages taken at a concert hall. Very early reports, details to follow.

eta: Death count up to 18, as many as six gunmen at multiple locations. President Hollandé was safely evacuated from stadium, match went on.

If you're an Eagles of Death Metal fan, it was their concert that was one of the locations attacked.

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:03 pm

France 24 (english) reports that 60 hostages being held at the concert, Bataclan Music Hall.

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:53 pm

Now more shooting at Les Halles at a shopping mall, near the Centre Pompidou.

rass · Post by **rass** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:59 pm

NBC is reporting French media is reporting 60 dead. Multiple locations.... Already unconfirmed Muslim responsibility.

I wish a non-current news channel had been on when I flipped on the TV. Fuck...

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:01 pm

Hollandé ordered the borders closed. That didn't take long.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:01 pm

Game was still played? Impressive.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:10 pm

Hollande mentioned many arrests to be made...

I would imagine that after three vicious terrorist attacks in a year, the people of Paris wouldn't mind random arrests and detentions of those who fit the profile.

Bad time to be a law-abiding young muslim male in Paris.

But in all honesty, I don't know what else the government can do. They can't go back in time and retroactively weed out the bad eggs.

I know what I would think if this was going on in my city, and the thoughts are really, really ugly.

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:25 pm

HaulCitgo wrote:Game was still played? Impressive.

Kinda weird. The Stade de France is about three miles north of where the shootings occurred. There was an incident at or near the stadium, a loud explosion outside that was clearly heard inside. Possibly a grenade, possibly a suicide bomb. This happened just before the half. Later, three dead were reported.

One of the France 24 TV people said that with a big crowd in the stadium, you can't get cell coverage. 80,000 people overwhelm the cell service. So, maybe word didn't filter in until the game was nearly over. After the game, police had ringed the stadium, and was allowing fans out very slowly, in small numbers at a time. Seems like a reasonable strategy, to prevent a large crowd in the street to be a target.

I'm sure more information will fill in all all the questions regarding the football game and crowd.

Pruitt wrote:Bad time to be a law-abiding young muslim male in Paris.

Not sure there was a good time, but yeah. I'm sure France will open up the trains/buses/trucks to England.

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:31 pm

Now explosions at the concert venue. Cops probably storming it.

rass · Post by **rass** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:36 pm

It's one thing for David Frum to say it, but this is sort of unexpected...

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:44 pm

rass wrote:It's one thing for David Frum to say it, but this is sort of unexpected...

Fuck Rob Lowe - this is why social media can suck. Any mouth breather with a cell phone can become a commentator on the news. Nice to know the star of "Youngblood" is now an expert on world affairs.

(and as a sidebar... this is why actors need writers. There's an old cliche - "Just because he's an actor, doesn't necessarily mean he's a genius." )

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:48 pm

Lowe has been shitting out of his mouth a bunch recently.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:48 pm

That version of Rob Lowe definitely has cable.

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:56 pm

At least I keep my mouth-breathing news commentary to the swamp. Mostly.

For fans of the band:

Eagles of Death Metal reportedly escaped venue as Paris attacks began

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:03 pm

Yeah. They kept the game going just to keep people in the seats and have something to watch rather than 80000 people flooding onto the streets.

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:10 pm

Hostage situation is over after cops attack, two gunman dead, no word yet on how many hostages alive/dead/wounded.

And a refugee camp in Calais has a large fire. Ugly and gonna get uglier.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:21 pm

So what happens now? If ISIS is responsible is it seen as a foreign entity? And if so is this an attack on a NATO member?

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:54 pm

degenerasian wrote:So what happens now?

heh.

This is a major historic time. Not just this massacre, which was inevitable, which is part of a continuum of attacks on the west by radical islam, and there will be more in the coming years. But the refugee flow into Europe, as a direct result of the wars in Libya, Iraq and Syria. And the Russian/Iranian/Hezbollah/Syrian military actions. Major forces coming to fore, causing major reactions and events. Europe is in for some big changes.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:01 pm

I think only a ground war can end this. WW3

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:02 pm

I'd say more like sand Vietnam.

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:09 pm

118 dead at Bataclan concert hall; total count now 158.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:22 pm

Le Petit Cambodge Restaurant is a strange place for an attack

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:28 pm

Khmer Rouge sleeper cell?

A couple of witness accounts from the concert, via the telegraph.co.uk:

Bataclan witness (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -live.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
A young man who was inside the Bataclan has given a detailed account of what happened to Le Figaro. He said:
Quote
It was chaos. I was on the right of the room in the Bataclan, an Eagles of Death Metal song was about to finish, when I heard the sound of explosions like fire crackers.
I saw the guitarist take off his guitar, I turned around, and I saw a guy with an automatic weapon firing into the air.
Everyone got onto the ground. From that moment, instinct kicked in. With each volley you try to get as far away as possible from the gunmen - impossible to say how many, it all went by too quickly.
I tried, with some other people, to get onto the stage where there was an emergency exit on the right.
And there it was chaos, people were terrified, pleading to survive, and others pushed and pulled at us to get behind the stage.
We hid in a room on the right, by the stage, thinking that it was an exit, but no.
A member of staff in the room said that the emergency exit was on the other side of the room.
We still heard shooting. After a few more seconds or minutes, nothing, and we saw people edging towards the emergency exit - when I think about it, the gunmen must have been reloading at that point.
All of our group then decided to cross, passing behind the rear curtain. Then we found ourselves outside, and ran towards the boulevard.
We heard shooting in the street where we were but I didn’t look back. I ran, like all the world ran, towards Bastille. On the road there were already many police in cars and motorbikes heading towards the venue.
I went home, I’m OK. Others can’t say the same thing.
I wasn’t frightened, and I’m not (yet) in shock. I’m writing this so I don’t forget.

People escaped Bataclan masacre by climbing onto roof
The Telegraph's Rory Mulholland reports:
Quote
Dozens of people escaped from the Bataclan rock venue by climbing onto its roof.
Frederic Nowak, who was at the Eagles Of Death concert with his 23-year-old son, told the Telegraph that he was one of them.
"It was about 30 minutes into the concert when I saw two men firing into the crowd with machine guns. I at first hid behind a speaker. The men were firing wildly into the crowd and even at people lying on the ground.
Then I followed some people who were running out through a door to the right of the stage. It led to stairs but all the doors off the stairs were locked. We were stuck there for about ten minutes. There were thirty or forty people there.
Then we went further up the stairs and arrived at the roof. We got out through a window and we saw a man whose apartment was in the building next door waving to us.
We made out way over the rooftop and he let us in through his attic window. We stayed there until we heard the past police raiding the venue a while later."
Mr Kowak said he got a good look at just one of the shooters. He said he was young, probably in his 20s, and dressed casually.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:54 am

I went to bed at 9 pm (sick and stuff) and woke up 30 minutes ago to a fuck ton of messages and shit on my phone. I had no idea what was going on. Some of my friends are there right now too. They're safe, but digesting this all this morning is fucking crazy.

I'm only a few hours away too. Well, for a few more months.

bfj · Post by **bfj** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:29 am

Horrible scene(s).

Is Giff ok?

That French Guy · Post by **That French Guy** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:01 am

degenerasian wrote:Le Petit Cambodge Restaurant is a strange place for an attack

Seems like they just opened fire on a couple of random bars/restaurants.

It could have been worst. Three suicide bombers at Stade de France and only one dead. Thank god it didn't happen before/after the game, with everyone going to the subway.

And the calais refugee camp fire is accidental according to local authorities.

Isis has just claimed the attack.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:20 am

Jesus Fucking Christ.

People escaping while gunfire goes off. Le Monde link.

This is some seriously horrific shit. Dead bodies and blood in the streets. I'm sick to my stomach.

Post by **Sabo** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:26 am

Johnnie wrote:Jesus Fucking Christ.

People escaping while gunfire goes off. Le Monde link.

This is some seriously horrific shit. Dead bodies and blood in the streets. I'm sick to my stomach.

Here's the Google translate version of the story Johnnie linked:

Daniel is Psenny journalist in the world . He lives behind the Bataclan and was wounded Friday, November 13 as he tried to rescue the wounded who had escaped from the concert hall .

A ball, certainly fired from a window , crossed his left arm . Around 3 am , he was taken to the emergency room of the European Hospital Georges Pompidou , in the 15th arrondissement . He was waiting to be operated on Saturday morning as thirty other victims evacuated to the health facility .

I was working at home. The TV was on, it was broadcasting a film in which Jean-Hugues Anglade plays the role of a cop. I heard a noise like firecrackers, and at the beginning I was convinced that it was in the film. But the noise was loud, so I went to the window. I live on the second floor, and my apartment overlooks the emergency exits Bataclan. Sometimes there are some rough evacuation, but then everyone was running from all sides, I saw guys on the floor, blood ... I understood that there was something serious. I asked what was happening. Everyone flowed back to the Rue Amelot and Boulevard Voltaire. A woman was clinging to the Bataclan window on the second floor. I thought the images of Sept. 11.

I then said I would go down to open to people so they can take refuge. So I opened the door of the building. There was a man lying on the sidewalk. With another man I have not seen later he was fired for shelter in the lobby. I had to take the ball at that time. I do not know, I have an absence. But I remember I felt like a firecracker exploding in my left arm, and I saw that it was pissing blood. I think the shooter was at the Bataclan window. It is mounted in a couple of neighbors on the fourth floor. The type we did get was shot in the leg. It's an American. He vomited, he was cold, it was believed that he would die. We called the fire department, but they could not evacuate us. I called a doctor friend who told me how to make me a tourniquet with my shirt. And we're stuck until the assault is given and the RAID picked up.
Learn more about http://www.lemonde.fr/attaques-a-paris/ ... -dans-mon-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:53 am

Sounds like France will be leading the next middle eastern war. Don't worry though. Johnnie will be there to fix it later.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:55 am

This Reddit thread is a bit fascinating to read: actively practicing Muslims, what goes through your mind on a day like today?

This post within makes complete sense to me (because of my deployment to Iraq and the training I had prior to it) and worth it to read:

Decided to make an account to reply to this.

Honestly, I feel anger towards my own people. I grew up in the middle east, at a young age I was exposed to the Bullshit ideologies that exist within middle eastern society.

People out there don't care enough to get up and do something about their withering homes, their lack of funded education, the rise in crime etc. Instead they blame these things on the west, and more specifically Israel.

The guy that chose not to go to college when he had the chance to do so suddenly finds him in the shitty part of town, with 7 kids and drives a cab all day. But when asked why he doesn't do anything he'll puff up his chest, square his shoulders and confidently say something along the lines of "it's America and Israel that fucked us, we Arabs are proud and our time will come".

The thing that I was exposed to as a child wasn't religious extremism, it was social elitism. As an Arab myself I can tell you that a huge majority of Arabs living in the middle east sincerely believe that if you're not one of them then you're a level below them. I absolutely hate it when apologist Muslims come out of the woods every time a tragic event like this occurs and say "but not all muslims".

If you live in the middle east and deny what I just said you're only lying to yourself. It's a majority of people who have this stupid point of view, and it's easy to warp their reality into picking up a gun and shooting innocents, or convincing them into suicide bombing themselves in a crowd or bus. When you have a bunch of people who honestly believe they're better than everyone else, you can make them do whatever the hell you want. Why else would people go willingly join terror organizations?

I mean for fucks sake, we don't even like eachother. Jordanians, Lebanese, saudis, Iraqis etc etc all hate eachother. And within our own countries we hate eachother and do nothing but show off our blood lines. "I'm from this family, I have more right than you" type mentality actually exists in this day and age.

I honestly don't blame anyone for thinking negatively of muslims, a lot of people I've met in the state I currently live in have never met a muslim, I can't blame them for thinking that we're all violent idiots.

I'm sorry for ranting, I'm on my phone so the formatting might be terrible. It just makes my blood boil every time I hear about tragic events like this being caused in the name of religion.

howard · Post by **howard** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:12 pm

HaulCitgo wrote:Sounds like France will be leading the next middle eastern war.

Against Iran, if the illogic of recent history holds forth.

howard · Post by **howard** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:45 pm

At the football game:

Paris Attacks: Suicide Bomber Wearing an Explosive Vest Was Blocked From Entering Stade de France Soccer Venue
At least one suicide bomber had a ticket to the France-Germany soccer game, but his explosive vest was found during a security check at the gate

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:07 pm

Johnnie wrote:This Reddit thread is a bit fascinating to read: actively practicing Muslims, what goes through your mind on a day like today?

This post within makes complete sense to me (because of my deployment to Iraq and the training I had prior to it) and worth it to read:

Yup. I'm going to really generalize here and use a stupid sports term. The middle east and islam are in a 500 year losing streak. They were ahead of us 500 years ago, they should still be ahead of us instead of being far behind.

If you go back 1000 years Islam invented everything while Europe was a dirty and violent place. But if you go back just 500 years, Europe went through the renaissance and invented the printing press and other inventions, the Muslims were burning books and fighting each other. They are still fighting each other.

I disagree with some of that rant that it's all on the people. It's institutions too. Living in a place like Egypt, a guy that does everything right, goes to college, looks towards the future and then faces a population where over 50% is under 30 and the unemployment rate is 60%. What's he going to do?

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:33 pm

Keep them ignorant, keep them angry and have them focus their anger outside their clans and countries.

If it wasn't for the oil we need, the entire region from Syria to Oman to Egypt to Iran would get as much attention and cause the rest of the world as much trouble as Central Africa does.

Have a feeling that a lot of good hearted western Europeans woke up this morning and thought that maybe the Hungarian government has the right idea. The immigrants and refugees from the Muslim world that came to Europe back in the 60s-70s were let in with the best intentions. It's the children of the immigrants, the ones who are dissatisfied with their family's new home that rise up against the country that their parents so desperately wanted to enter.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:33 pm

degenerasian wrote:
Johnnie wrote:This Reddit thread is a bit fascinating to read: actively practicing Muslims, what goes through your mind on a day like today?

This post within makes complete sense to me (because of my deployment to Iraq and the training I had prior to it) and worth it to read:

Yup. I'm going to really generalize here and use a stupid sports term. The middle east and islam are in a 500 year losing streak. They were ahead of us 500 years ago, they should still be ahead of us instead of being far behind.

If you go back 1000 years Islam invented everything while Europe was a dirty and violent place. But if you go back just 500 years, Europe went through the renaissance and invented the printing press and other inventions, the Muslims were burning books and fighting each other. They are still fighting each other.

I disagree with some of that rant that it's all on the people. It's institutions too. Living in a place like Egypt, a guy that does everything right, goes to college, looks towards the future and then faces a population where over 50% is under 30 and the unemployment rate is 60%. What's he going to do?

If you go back 757 years, the Middle East is getting 3-starred by the Mongols. I think a lot of people note that annihilation of Baghdad as a real reset button on that area.

Though you'd think in almost three quarters of a millenium they might be a bit closer to normal.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:35 pm

Pruitt wrote:Keep them ignorant, keep them angry and have them focus their anger outside their clans and countries.

If it wasn't for the oil we need, the entire region from Syria to Oman to Egypt to Iran would get as much attention and cause the rest of the world as much trouble as Central Africa does.

Have a feeling that a lot of good hearted western Europeans woke up this morning and thought that maybe the Hungarian government has the right idea. The immigrants and refugees from the Muslim world that came to Europe back in the 60s-70s were let in with the best intentions. It's the children of the immigrants, the ones who are dissatisfied with their family's new home that rise up against the country that their parents so desperately wanted to enter.

A passport from one of the refugees was found near one of the bombers. May not take a generation this time if this dude was coming in under the guise of being a refugee.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:44 pm

Pruitt wrote:Keep them ignorant, keep them angry and have them focus their anger outside their clans and countries.

If it wasn't for the oil we need, the entire region from Syria to Oman to Egypt to Iran would get as much attention and cause the rest of the world as much trouble as Central Africa does.

Have a feeling that a lot of good hearted western Europeans woke up this morning and thought that maybe the Hungarian government has the right idea. The immigrants and refugees from the Muslim world that came to Europe back in the 60s-70s were let in with the best intentions. It's the children of the immigrants, the ones who are dissatisfied with their family's new home that rise up against the country that their parents so desperately wanted to enter.

but why just them? I'm sure there are disgruntled children of immigrants let into Europe in the 60s and 70s from everywhere.

Is it the religion? Does it make them feel mad? Does it make them feel that they're being treated unfair. ie, my workplace doesn't let me me pray 5 times so it sucks. Where's the anger come from.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:49 pm

degenerasian wrote:
Johnnie wrote:This Reddit thread is a bit fascinating to read: actively practicing Muslims, what goes through your mind on a day like today?

This post within makes complete sense to me (because of my deployment to Iraq and the training I had prior to it) and worth it to read:

Yup. I'm going to really generalize here and use a stupid sports term. The middle east and islam are in a 500 year losing streak. They were ahead of us 500 years ago, they should still be ahead of us instead of being far behind.

If you go back 1000 years Islam invented everything while Europe was a dirty and violent place. But if you go back just 500 years, Europe went through the renaissance and invented the printing press and other inventions, the Muslims were burning books and fighting each other. They are still fighting each other.

I disagree with some of that rant that it's all on the people. It's institutions too. Living in a place like Egypt, a guy that does everything right, goes to college, looks towards the future and then faces a population where over 50% is under 30 and the unemployment rate is 60%. What's he going to do?

This explanation lets the West off way too easily. One of the big problems with the Middle East, which the West is directly responsible for, is that many countries' borders were arbitrarily drawn up by colonial powers, with no basis in history or culture. What is the historical or cultural basis for why Iraq should have a unified and stable society? Having a brutal dictator like Saddam Hussein in place was likely the only thing that kept that country from splintering apart sooner. To compound matters, the U.S.'s insistence on disbanding the Iraqi army and de-Ba'athification after the 2003 invasion basically eliminated any hope for having stable civil institutions in the Sunni areas of Iraq. It's no coincidence that ISIS grew to power there (and in similarly anarchic areas of Syria), and not in a place like Iran or Turkey that is a real, functioning state.

In addition, the West has been far too willing to support dictators who will give us access to oil instead of supporting leaders with actual democratic support. The rise of the ayatollahs in Iran can be directly traced to the CIA's role in deposing Mossadegh, out of concerns that he was a socialist. In some cases (most notably Saudi Arabia), the dictators we support are directly funneling money to anti-American terrorist groups.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:54 pm

Joe K wrote:
degenerasian wrote:
Johnnie wrote:This Reddit thread is a bit fascinating to read: actively practicing Muslims, what goes through your mind on a day like today?

This post within makes complete sense to me (because of my deployment to Iraq and the training I had prior to it) and worth it to read:

Yup. I'm going to really generalize here and use a stupid sports term. The middle east and islam are in a 500 year losing streak. They were ahead of us 500 years ago, they should still be ahead of us instead of being far behind.

If you go back 1000 years Islam invented everything while Europe was a dirty and violent place. But if you go back just 500 years, Europe went through the renaissance and invented the printing press and other inventions, the Muslims were burning books and fighting each other. They are still fighting each other.

I disagree with some of that rant that it's all on the people. It's institutions too. Living in a place like Egypt, a guy that does everything right, goes to college, looks towards the future and then faces a population where over 50% is under 30 and the unemployment rate is 60%. What's he going to do?
This explanation lets the West off way too easily. One of the big problems with the Middle East, which the West is directly responsible for, is that many countries' borders were arbitrarily drawn up by colonial powers, with no basis in history or culture. What is the historical or cultural basis for why Iraq should have a unified and stable society? Having a brutal dictator like Saddam Hussein in place was likely the only thing that kept that country from splintering apart sooner. To compound matters, the U.S.'s insistence on disbanding the Iraqi army and de-Ba'athification after the 2003 invasion basically eliminated any hope for having stable civil institutions in the Sunni areas of Iraq. It's no coincidence that ISIS grew to power there (and in similarly anarchic areas of Syria), and not in a place like Iran or Turkey that is a real, functioning state.

In addition, the West has been far too willing to support dictators who will give us access to oil instead of supporting leaders with actual democratic support. The rise of the ayatollahs in Iran can be directly traced to the CIA's role in deposing Mossadegh, out of concerns that he was a socialist. In some cases (most notably Saudi Arabia), the dictators we support are directly funneling money to anti-American terrorist groups.

True dat, Isreali land was promised to the Palestinians in the WW1 peace treaties. I had no idea about that until recently.