Fusillade à Paris

[BSF21]

I'm that guy. I'm the son of refugees. I have work under the conditions of the country right? I have to spend money for the economy, pay taxes for the good of everyone etc etc.. become a contributing person in society.

And you feel good about that why? My guess is because your parents were able to start a new life and you got to grow up in that supportive environment.

Now imagine your parents had come, they were turned away, they suffered for going back to their origin point perhaps to the point of being killed by whom they were fleeing or getting swept up in a war they had nothing to do with etc. Do you still think you'd feel the same had you made it?

(Again just trying to provoke discussion. I find your situation unique and enjoy your perspective on it)

[degenerasian]

It's worth noting that a hefty proportion of Americans in 1938 were themselves immigrants or the children of immigrants. Traditionally, each wave of immigrants regards the next with suspicion and dread. Part of this is simple economic self-interest, as the people on the bottom of the labour market don't want their bargaining power undermined.

And of course this isn't just an American thing. Sadly, Jewish refugees from Europe were turned away from pretty much every country they sought to escape to.

[Nonlinear FC]

The issue with that is the situation isn't the same. I just said why I think the argument is inane, but this resistance to Syrians isn't about their "otherness," it's because of a perceived threat because of the potential that some percentage are terrorists.

Again, it's a really dumb argument, but the vast majority of people throwing out objections are using the "let's be cautious" line of thinking.

[degenerasian]

I'm that guy. I'm the son of refugees. I have work under the conditions of the country right? I have to spend money for the economy, pay taxes for the good of everyone etc etc.. become a contributing person in society.

And you feel good about that why? My guess is because your parents were able to start a new life and you got to grow up in that supportive environment.

Now imagine your parents had come, they were turned away, they suffered for going back to their origin point perhaps to the point of being killed by whom they were fleeing or getting swept up in a war they had nothing to do with etc. Do you still think you'd feel the same had you made it?

(Again just trying to provoke discussion. I find your situation unique and enjoy your perspective on it)

In general I feel good about contributing to the place where I was born. My parents were fortunate enough to make it out in 1975 under relatively safe circumstances. The boat people of 1979 got it even worse and those who never left, even worse.

But in the end, you make best with whatever you have. Many of my parent's friends stayed behind and had to endure the initial years of communism. No money, no food, education camps etc.. But once things started to improve, they started having kids (there is a huge gap of very few children born in Vietnam between 75 and 80). So if my parents had stayed behind or got sent back, I'd probably be 5 years younger ha!

My parent's friends kids, they're in their early 30s now and they're happy. They have been able to build a life in Communist Vietnam. The girl I met in Vietnam last month, her family is pretty well off. And Vietnamese kids in America, they're contributing and happy too.

So what's different? South Vietnamese people don't blame the US for losing the war? The US didn't continue bombing Vietnam after 75 and just left the area alone? There isn't any tension at all that stuff 40 years ago is long forgotten.

[Gunpowder]

We're still trying to "fix" the middle east. We gave up with Vietnam and stopped attacking them. We also didn't draw up their borders and overthrow their government for oil or try to give a portion of their land to Laos or tell them we have to come in and check on their weapons or arm a sect of guerrilla capitalists to fight them for us on the ground. At least I don't think we did, I don't know much about Vietnam War history.

Islam sure doesn't help but I don't think it's at all comparable to Vietnam today. Hell, right now it's probably more like Vietnam during the actual Vietnam war, no?

[mister d]

The issue with that is the situation isn't the same. I just said why I think the argument is inane, but this resistance to Syrians isn't about their "otherness," it's because of a perceived threat because of the potential that some percentage are terrorists.

Again, it's a really dumb argument, but the vast majority of people throwing out objections are using the "let's be cautious" line of thinking.

I don't agree with this. Mass exodus from Ireland fleeing some new and super-huge IRA offensive wouldn't be met with "get those scary 5 year olds away from me".

[Joe K]

The issue with that is the situation isn't the same. I just said why I think the argument is inane, but this resistance to Syrians isn't about their "otherness," it's because of a perceived threat because of the potential that some percentage are terrorists.

Again, it's a really dumb argument, but the vast majority of people throwing out objections are using the "let's be cautious" line of thinking.

I don't agree with this. Mass exodus from Ireland fleeing some new and super-huge IRA offensive wouldn't be met with "get those scary 5 year olds away from me".

Some future PhD student is going to write a nice dissertation comparing the West's reaction to the Paris attacks to the West's reaction to the Anders Breivik massacre. I don't see how you can compare the two events and think that "otherness" isn't a huge factor in the reaction to atrocities.

[Steve of phpBB]

The issue with that is the situation isn't the same. I just said why I think the argument is inane, but this resistance to Syrians isn't about their "otherness," it's because of a perceived threat because of the potential that some percentage are terrorists.

Again, it's a really dumb argument, but the vast majority of people throwing out objections are using the "let's be cautious" line of thinking.

I think this is wrong because with prior waves of immigrants (or threatened waves of immigrants), we managed to find a perceived threat. With the Jews in the 1930s, there was a "perceived threat" that the Jews were Communists. With the Mexicans now, they are rapists.

I am sure there were other perceived threats for each ethnic group that wanted to come here. And those threats are no more realistic than the threats posed by the Syrians.

[The Sybian]

The girl I met in Vietnam last month, OUR family is pretty well off. And Vietnamese kids in America, they're contributing and happy too.

FIFY (sorry, had to lighten the mood in this thread)

[Nonlinear FC]

The issue with that is the situation isn't the same. I just said why I think the argument is inane, but this resistance to Syrians isn't about their "otherness," it's because of a perceived threat because of the potential that some percentage are terrorists.

Again, it's a really dumb argument, but the vast majority of people throwing out objections are using the "let's be cautious" line of thinking.

I think this is wrong because with prior waves of immigrants (or threatened waves of immigrants), we managed to find a perceived threat. With the Jews in the 1930s, there was a "perceived threat" that the Jews were Communists. With the Mexicans now, they are rapists.

I am sure there were other perceived threats for each ethnic group that wanted to come here. And those threats are no more realistic than the threats posed by the Syrians.

Look, I'm happy to cop to not fully grasping a position to which I oppose (IOW, I'm pro let them the fuck in already.)

I should've said it's not ALL about "otherness." We have a populace that has been CONSTANTLY put on edge about random events that could kill them at every turn for close to 15 years now. The running joke about checking on Giff is funny as shit (and I meant to compliment BFJ for that the other day), but it also speaks to how so many people in this country feel threatened and pretty much don't want to deal with stuff anymore.

It doesn't help that we have a mass shooting about every other month. And it certainly doesn't help that our politicians and the media thrive on creating division and scandal and drama around EVERY fucking thing, which further serves to pit Americans vs. Other Americans in a dehumanizing way.

We have a huge chunk of the electorate that is moving into a Shia vs. Sunni-level of hatred towards each other. And into this mix, many of those radical dittoheads are being asked to accept brown people, that could possibly be terrorists.

Fuck. I need a drink.

[mister d]

You could probably add the ever increasing me-ness of americans and the inability to grasp that they exist as a completely unweighted 1/300,000,000.

[Pruitt]

The issue with that is the situation isn't the same. I just said why I think the argument is inane, but this resistance to Syrians isn't about their "otherness," it's because of a perceived threat because of the potential that some percentage are terrorists.

Again, it's a really dumb argument, but the vast majority of people throwing out objections are using the "let's be cautious" line of thinking.

I think this is wrong because with prior waves of immigrants (or threatened waves of immigrants), we managed to find a perceived threat. With the Jews in the 1930s, there was a "perceived threat" that the Jews were Communists. With the Mexicans now, they are rapists.

I am sure there were other perceived threats for each ethnic group that wanted to come here. And those threats are no more realistic than the threats posed by the Syrians.

Every Canadian Jew knows what the phrase "none is too many" refers to. Every single one of us has stories of desperate ancestors trying to escape the persecutions of eastern Europe. We all know how entry to the country was restricted in the late 30s at a time when it was needed the most...

Which is why I don't have the words to fully express my disgust and some of my tribesmen and women who are so steadfast in their opposition to having the government honour its not too enthusiastic target of 25,000 refugees brought in here.

Swear to God, my wife's best friend's parents survived the camps. If Canada didn't allow them in, what would there lives have been like in Poland? (you could look it up... not pretty).

They thrived here and built a great life for themselves and their children and grandchildren.

Yet this woman is vehement that no Syrians should be allowed to get in. My wife has pointed out her family's history, but it doesn't sink in. Travel back 70 years and instead of a middle class Jewish woman wailing that no Syrians should be allowed in, it's some W.A.S.P. complaining about Jews.

(Not all Jews in Toronto are like this. But honestly, how could a single one not see the hypocrisy of their stance?)

[Steve of phpBB]

The scariest thing about all this - this was an attack that killed less than 150 people, in a country 4000 miles away.

How horrible is it going to be when something like this happens in the US?

[Steve of phpBB]

The issue with that is the situation isn't the same. I just said why I think the argument is inane, but this resistance to Syrians isn't about their "otherness," it's because of a perceived threat because of the potential that some percentage are terrorists.

Again, it's a really dumb argument, but the vast majority of people throwing out objections are using the "let's be cautious" line of thinking.

I think this is wrong because with prior waves of immigrants (or threatened waves of immigrants), we managed to find a perceived threat. With the Jews in the 1930s, there was a "perceived threat" that the Jews were Communists. With the Mexicans now, they are rapists.

I am sure there were other perceived threats for each ethnic group that wanted to come here. And those threats are no more realistic than the threats posed by the Syrians.

Every Canadian Jew knows what the phrase "none is too many" refers to. Every single one of us has stories of desperate ancestors trying to escape the persecutions of eastern Europe. We all know how entry to the country was restricted in the late 30s at a time when it was needed the most...

Which is why I don't have the words to fully express my disgust and some of my tribesmen and women who are so steadfast in their opposition to having the government honour its not too enthusiastic target of 25,000 refugees brought in here.

Swear to God, my wife's best friend's parents survived the camps. If Canada didn't allow them in, what would there lives have been like in Poland? (you could look it up... not pretty).

They thrived here and built a great life for themselves and their children and grandchildren.

Yet this woman is vehement that no Syrians should be allowed to get in. My wife has pointed out her family's history, but it doesn't sink in. Travel back 70 years and instead of a middle class Jewish woman wailing that no Syrians should be allowed in, it's some W.A.S.P. complaining about Jews.

(Not all Jews in Toronto are like this. But honestly, how could a single one not see the hypocrisy of their stance?)

I'm curious - any idea if her resistance to refugees is based on the fact that they are Syrians, i.e., from a country that is an enemy of Israel?

[The Sybian]

(Not all Jews in Toronto are like this. But honestly, how could a single one not see the hypocrisy of their stance?)

Because Islamic Terrorists!!!! The Syrians are dehumanized to us, much like the Jews were in the 1930s. It's easy when they have a different culture and religion than the majority. Like BSF said, it's a different story if we are talking about Irish fleeing the IRA. While it is sad and embarrassing, this has always been the response to waves of immigration in the US. Irish, Italians, Jews, Chinese... Fear and hatred of the unknown.

[The Sybian]

I'm curious - any idea if her resistance to refugees is based on the fact that they are Syrians, i.e., from a country that is an enemy of Israel?

This makes sense at first glance, but if someone is fleeing from an enemy's government, you should probably be sympathetic to them. If someone was fleeing an ally government, that is when you should worry. Think about a British citizen seeking asylum in the US to escape the Brits.

[mister d]

Reason for seeking asylum: Chessed off because me mates are stealin' me chips and fags

[howard]

Just wish we had a real, tough-talkin' leader like Putin.

Hell to the yes. He's doing more than talking. I haven't looked at the data on the second round of French airstrikes, but the first set on Saturday evening were targets in Al Raqqa. Where Putin had already bombed. On Oct 3. Some of the exact same buildings. heh.

So as more information has come out it turns out that none of the identified attackers were Syrian nationals, let alone refugees.

If Hollande doesn't immediately attack Brussels, perhaps Putin will. (Obvs I'm still bitter about the World Cup. fuck the waffles.)

[Steve of phpBB]

Haven't the Belgians had it in for the French for hundreds of years?

[degenerasian]

coworkers discussion:

"hey, if Trump is president do you think the Muslims in America will be interned?"

[Pruitt]

I'm curious - any idea if her resistance to refugees is based on the fact that they are Syrians, i.e., from a country that is an enemy of Israel?

You are correct sir.

But the prevailing attitude she has would - if not being totally against them - be a bit unhappy if, say, Sri Lankan or Nicaraguans were being allowed in in big numbers. Less than two generations to become so firmly entrenched and comfortable in a new country that all memories of what her family's life used to be like is gone.

[howard]

Many of these murderers seem to be offspring of Algerian and Morrocan immigrants. So, you really want to prevent terrorism, you don't do stupid colonial, like Algeria, and other optional wars like Iraq, to prevent terrorism 10-50 years later. Some sins take a long time to come home to roost. As usual, just don't be a dick as a country.

(sorry, I'm reading some Camus.)

[sancarlos]

[howard]

Haven't the Belgians had it in for the French for hundreds of years?

I don't know shit about Belgium, I think there remains some conflicts between the French speaking and Dutch speaking parts of the country. Waloons and Flemish I guess. Hey, our government could openly arm one side, the CIA the other, and hi-jinks ensue.

[howard]

Historians Politely Remind Nation To Check What's Happened In Past Before Making Any Big Decisions

[Johnnie]

Now Brussels is on high alert.

Fucking Christ.

This is from Reddit. But it's about to be 4pm here soon. Not sure when this was taken.

https://i.imgur.com/CFcezz9.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[howard]

For J-Lo:

[Joe K]

For J-Lo:

I'm very liberal and not at all religious but that kind of snark from the Left is annoying. It's not like the lure of senseless violence is confined to religious people. To use just one example, Christopher Hitchens was one of the loudest and most influential Iraq War cheerleaders, and the Iraq War is a pretty good example of violence over made up nonsense. And McVeigh was a self-proclaimed agnostic whose terrorism had nothing to do with religion.

[howard]

I'm not sure oil is made-up nonsense. I'm not exactly left, if that makes it less annoying.

(I agree with you, I'm just throwing snark around, as usual. Can't let Mr. D have all the fun.)

[brian]

For J-Lo:

I'm very liberal and not at all religious but that kind of snark from the Left is annoying. It's not like the lure of senseless violence is confined to religious people. To use just one example, Christopher Hitchens was one of the loudest and most influential Iraq War cheerleaders, and the Iraq War is a pretty good example of violence over made up nonsense. And McVeigh was a self-proclaimed agnostic whose terrorism had nothing to do with religion.

While your overall point is well-taken and accurate it's just a bit of a goof on religious nuts and I don't think meant to be a pious holier-than-thou hottake on how athiests are better. (And yes I do believe athiests can be holier-than-thou. In many cases worse than Christians.)

[Jerloma]

1. I can't stand the sanctimonious prick behind the Facebook God character.

2. Christopher Hitchens was not a "leftist."

3. Can we raise the level of discourse above this shit?

It's not like the lure of senseless violence is confined to religious people.

There may be no greater strawman in response to the problem of religious violence than this. If anyone doesn't realize by now that there have been horrible things done throughout history that weren't divinely-inspired, then they don't get a seat at the grown-ups table.

War doesn't kill shitty ideas. Better ideas kill shitty ideas. As to Howard's example, maybe there's too much money in oil right now where it doesn't seem like we're going to stop killing ourselves over it but watch what happens to that type of violence as we become less dependent on oil. You can't do that with people's deities because they don't fucking exist. You're trying to fight ghosts and the people who believe in those ghosts don't accept better ideas because they're convinced that believing in those ghosts not only make them more virtuous but in most cases make them immortal. You can't use reason and science to fight an idea specifically designed in such a way that reason and science are it's enemy.

I have no fucks to give that some people think their religion makes them behave better. I don't have such a cynical view of humanity where I think people require this childish carrot and stick ethical system to inspire them to be kind and charitable. They've just been led to believe that through indoctrination and fear. You want to credit Allah for your humanity, go ahead, but know this...if you seriously think Allah inspires any actions at all, you don't get to tell the people hellbent on Islamic world domination that they're wrong.

Prove your deity exists. Prove it's real. Then and only then do you get to propose ideas as to how he wants us to behave. Then and only then, should you get a seat at the grown-ups table. We turn the Middle East into a crater if we want, but we can't fight ghosts...that's the issue.

[howard]

#3.
not bloody likely

[brian]

#3.
not bloody likely

And just when I thought Jerloma had achieved peak condescension, there's another level.

[Jerloma]

Thanks!

[Pruitt]

I think I love Belgians now.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/23/europe/pa ... down-cats/

[howard]

The cats twitter thread was amazing.

[sancarlos]

Anonymous has gotten involved since the Paris incident. Now, tormenting ISIS with Rickrolls!