Fusillade à Paris

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:44 am

bfj wrote:
degenerasian wrote:Theyve tried to set up sharia courts here in canada. Both Ontario and Quebec have had to pass laws outlawing it.

What would that even mean? For example a women would not be allowed to divorce even though she lived in Canada
Legally they could, religiously they couldn't. Orthodox Jews do this. They must be granted a "Get" in order to be divorced, even if a court grants them a divorce. Meaning a woman who has a husband who won't agree to a Get, can't get remarried in the Orthodox faith.

Right, this distinction is what I was getting at. Similarly, good luck trying to find a Catholic Church that will perform a same-sex marriage, even though that is now recognized as a legal right in the U.S. That doesn't mean we shouldn't allow any immigrants from Latin America who are observant Catholics. Obviously there are legitimate debates about how many refugees countries should accept from Iraq, Syria, etc. I just think that the "Sharia Law" point is frequently used as a baseless scare tactic and fails to distinguish Muslims from the many other religious groups that live by a particular code of rules.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:44 am

I wasn't using Sharia Law as reason to not let immigrants in, I'm pro-immigration. I mentioned it as an example of how Muslims refuse to assimilate into Canadian culture and then turn around and say that Canadians shit on them when Canada says 'this is stupid'.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:56 am

Looking through my Twitter feed, I'd be amazed if we manage to avoid blundering into yet another ground war because of this.

Because radical Islamist terrorists are able to kill a hundred or two hundred people every few years.

If that amount of death is going to cause us to go to war, then by all means let's start bombing ...

American gun manufacturers and sellers
Cigarette factories and tobacco farms
Auto factories
Oxycontin factories
High fructose corn syrup plants

howard · Post by **howard** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:55 am

sing me up for that war

sign.

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:56 am

howard wrote:sing me up for that war

Hippie.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:45 pm

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:03 pm

Has France surrendered to ISIS yet?

(I'll show myself out.)

howard · Post by **howard** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:17 pm

The Onion, in 2003:

This War Will Destabilize The Entire Mideast Region And Set Off A Global Shockwave Of Anti-Americanism vs. No It Won’t

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:36 pm

I assume that a reason the Eagles of Death Metal concert was targeted was because of the band's implied support of Israel. Last summer, they played a show in Tel Aviv. But, some time before that show, they were under pressure from artist supporters of the BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) anti-Israel movement, notably former Pink Floyd frontman Roger Waters, to join their boycott off Israel. At the Tel Aviv concert, singer Jesse Hughes related the letter he'd received from Waters, and told the crowd he responded "Fuck you!", and that nobody was going to keep him from playing there.

Post by **brian** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:45 pm

sancarlos wrote:I assume that a reason the Eagles of Death Metal concert was targeted was because of the band's implied support of Israel. Last summer, they played a show in Tel Aviv. But, some time before that show, they were under pressure from artist supporters of the BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) anti-Israel movement, notably former Pink Floyd frontman Roger Waters, to join their boycott off Israel. At the Tel Aviv concert, singer Jesse Hughes related the letter he'd received from Waters, and told the crowd he responded "Fuck you!", and that nobody was going to keep him from playing there.

That seems kind of a stretch. I assume it was more because there was going to be a large group of people there. I imagine the main target was Stade de France which security and good fortune did a great job of neutralizing.

howard · Post by **howard** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:47 pm

The venue was Jewish owned for decades until recently it was sold. It has been the target of antisemitic protests and vandalism in the past, and it has hosted pro-Israel events. I would guess the act playing had nothing to do with the targeting, just happened to be the same night as a football game with a full stadium and Hollandé in attendance, but of course I don't know.

An odd little coincidence I noted. The Bataclan hall was named for a contemporary operetta written by Jacques Offenbach (and the coincidence is not that he was Jewish.) He also penned a little ditty called the Gendarmes' Duet, from another operetta, Geneviève de Brabant. The main theme of that little song may sound familiar to American ears in a time of war. At the 0:40 mark:

Post by **brian** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:22 pm

I didn't know the hall's history. That makes more sense than the band being targeted. It's not like EoDM are rare for having played Tel Aviv.

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:24 am

Best response to these events that I've read so far.

Do Not Ask Western Leadership to Fix Anything

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:53 am

howard wrote:Best response to these events that I've read so far.

Do Not Ask Western Leadership to Fix Anything

Interesting. Oil and Israel though, how do we solve these things if the West ignored the Middle East.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:55 pm

Great article from the WashPost on how the inevitable backlash against Muslims that has already begun is exactly what ISIS wants: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... e-muslims/.

There's also an interesting point in the article about the assimilation point. Studies have shown that Muslims who live in communities where prejudice and hate crimes are more common become less likely to assimilate. Given how Muslims are despised more than any other ethnic or religious group in many Western countries, that gives a good explanation for Degen's question about the comparative lack of assimilation.

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:09 pm

Joe K wrote:Studies have shown that Muslims who live in communities where prejudice and hate crimes are more common become less likely to assimilate.

This is part of the point I was making above. Funny how that works.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:29 pm

Sure but communities where prejudice and hate crimes are more common the racist person hates everyone. They are equal-opportunity racists at first, the minority have to win them over.

Like Brian said, if he was in Peru, he'd have to learn Spanish, watch soccer. Attempt to assimilate.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:30 pm

howard wrote:
Joe K wrote:Studies have shown that Muslims who live in communities where prejudice and hate crimes are more common become less likely to assimilate.
This is part of the point I was making above. Funny how that works.

I'm curious, though, which way the causation runs. Maybe prejudice and hate crimes are more common where people have not assimilated. Probably not likely though.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:01 pm

Germany v Netherlands Friendly cancelled after suspicious suitcase found.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:05 pm

degenerasian wrote:Sure but communities where prejudice and hate crimes are more common the racist person hates everyone. They are equal-opportunity racists at first, the minority have to win them over.

Like Brian said, if he was in Peru, he'd have to learn Spanish, watch soccer. Attempt to assimilate.

I don't agree with this at all. You can't compare the treatment of one minority group to another and just say that they're all treated equally badly by racists and bigots. That doesn't just go for Muslims but is true of other groups as well. The challenges of assimilating and being accepted vary substantially from group to group. Just looking at St. Louis, where I live, the experience of young African-American men is markedly different from the experience of the large population of Bosnian immigrants here.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:06 pm

I bet Sepp Blatter found it and reported it suspicious because it wasn't full of money #futboljokes #fifazingers #socorrupt

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:15 pm

Joe K wrote:
degenerasian wrote:Sure but communities where prejudice and hate crimes are more common the racist person hates everyone. They are equal-opportunity racists at first, the minority have to win them over.

Like Brian said, if he was in Peru, he'd have to learn Spanish, watch soccer. Attempt to assimilate.
I don't agree with this at all. You can't compare the treatment of one minority group to another and just say that they're all treated equally badly by racists and bigots. That doesn't just go for Muslims but is true of other groups as well. The challenges of assimilating and being accepted vary substantially from group to group. Just looking at St. Louis, where I live, the experience of young African-American men is markedly different from the experience of the large population of Bosnian immigrants here.

I think Dan Carlin's thing hit this whole nail firmly on the head. It's a complete catch 22. You keep getting stung by jabs and you're going to lose the fight. You attempt to respond with punches of your own and you're swinging at ghosts.

However contrary it is to our human nature to be the best and the strongest, I'd rather live in a world where we accept all and take the infrequent bad egg rather than retreat within ourselves and our own culture and what we know best. That's the only real way forward. If people can be radicalized by violence and destruction, why can't people be turned by kindness as well? But that's a hard way forward because it makes us vulnerable and opens us to unpleasant things, which is the antithesis of what we want to do as humans.

We have to evolve somewhere, at some point, or we continue spinning off into a more and more hateful, miserable human experience.

Sigh.

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:40 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:I'm curious, though, which way the causation runs. Maybe prejudice and hate crimes are more common where people have not assimilated. Probably not likely though.

I'll speak to what I know definitively, and leave it to you to judge how well this case translates to other times and places. But in the USA wrt black people, the prejudice and hate crimes came first. African slavery was the original sin of the proto-USA, before native american genocide. No chicken/egg controversy there.

On a micro level, the tendency for me to hate white people and to wall myself off from white society was much much less when my family moved to Davis. (yeah, I overcame that tendency, now I hate you all, but that came much later.) The much lower level of overt racism in Davis compared to everywhere else I've spent significant time was a potent influence promoting 'assimilation'.

This may have zero to do with the subject at hand, because of the unique aspects of American racism vs black people. The whole slavery thingie. I think it has some limited relevance, but I certainly accept it may have zero relevance.

eta: I like the Carlin jab metaphor a lot.

etaa: while I have the mike, a somewhat related point I like to hammer whenever I can, so here it is.

BSF21 wrote: However contrary it is to our human nature to be the best and the strongest…

Sure, tribalism of all kinds, including racism, is natural. But, that is the whole point of civilization, and even perhaps the point of being human. The ongoing struggle to overcome and rise above those parts of our nature that are 'bad' (wrong, counterproductive, negative.)

It is human nature to do all kinds of things that we do not do, by and large, because we have civilized ourselves. I'm hungry, and you are eating a sandwich, it is in my human nature to whack you upside the head and take your sandwich. So successful is our civilizing process, this thought doesn't even cross either of our minds.

So fragile is our civilizing process, as we take two steps forward, we inevitably take one step backwards. Wrt war, racism, sexism, democracy vis a vis greed and wealth inequality. Well, sometimes two or three steps backward. But that is the game.

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:01 pm

Intellectual discussion of racism and assimilation aside,

A_B wrote:Germany v Netherlands Friendly cancelled after suspicious suitcase found.

this is escalating quickly:
Germany-Netherlands football match in Hannover cancelled, stadium evacuated

Police have reportedly found an ambulance car “full of explosives” outside the Hannover stadium, according to a local newspaper, citing police sources. There have been no official confirmation of that.

I am hesitant to post such an early, unconfirmed report, but the devious evil of using an ambulance as a car bomb is special.

Man, I thought Americans hated footie.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:10 pm

There's another report saying its not a vehicle, but a suitcase inside the stadium.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:13 pm

mister d wrote:There's another report saying its not a vehicle, but a suitcase inside the stadium.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:17 pm

I saw in a couple of places (not facebook and instagram) that the suitcase turned out to be nothing. But there is other stuff that prompted cancellation of the game, clearing people out of the vicinity of the stadium, and evacuating a nearby music event.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:19 pm

Nope: http://screamer.deadspin.com/germany-ne ... 1743072366" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:21 pm

mister d wrote:Nope: http://screamer.deadspin.com/germany-ne ... 1743072366" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah, it was in my original link. Really thought you were fucking with Howard.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:26 pm

I think I was talking about this in two different places and my brain did something weird.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:28 pm

mister d wrote:I think I was talking about this in two different places and my brain did something weird.

Let's just agree that you were fucking with howard, then.

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:29 pm

This is a beautiful real-time example of the danger of 100% believing early reports. Just random examples; both sides have been reported in various reports, at various times.

Deadspin:

[Update 2:56]: It now appears that what police found in the luggage was some sort of explosive device and the intent was to set it off:

NY times, 1:45pm

People who were already inside the 49,000-seat stadium left swiftly and calmly, Mr. Kluwe said, and the match was called off. The package was inspected and turned out to be harmless.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:30 pm

Excuse the blasphemy and profanity but Jesus fucking christ!

As a sports fan, I always had the fear that someday stadiums would become targets - where else will you find so many people to slaughter at once?

This is all making me into a (temporary) hard ass, so I can just imagine what the average German is thinking about his country's open hearted embrace of refugees.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:32 pm

howard wrote:This is a beautiful real-time example of the danger of 100% believing early reports. Just random examples; both sides have been reported in various reports, at various times.

Deadspin:
[Update 2:56]: It now appears that what police found in the luggage was some sort of explosive device and the intent was to set it off:
NY times, 1:45pm
People who were already inside the 49,000-seat stadium left swiftly and calmly, Mr. Kluwe said, and the match was called off. The package was inspected and turned out to be harmless.

I'll never forget on 9/11 - my pregnant sister was working on Capitol Hill and CNN reported that there were reports of a bomb going off on the Hill. My mother nearly had a heart attack.

Giff · Post by **Giff** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:33 pm

Pruitt wrote:
howard wrote:This is a beautiful real-time example of the danger of 100% believing early reports. Just random examples; both sides have been reported in various reports, at various times.

Deadspin:
[Update 2:56]: It now appears that what police found in the luggage was some sort of explosive device and the intent was to set it off:
NY times, 1:45pm
People who were already inside the 49,000-seat stadium left swiftly and calmly, Mr. Kluwe said, and the match was called off. The package was inspected and turned out to be harmless.
I'll never forget on 9/11 - my pregnant sister was working on Capitol Hill and CNN reported that there were reports of a bomb going off on the Hill. My mother nearly had a heart attack.

I will NEVER forget 9/11.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:34 pm

Pruitt wrote:This is all making me into a (temporary) hard ass, so I can just imagine what the average German is thinking about his country's open hearted embrace of refugees.

"Fuck. I can see why they're fleeing."

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:38 pm

mister d wrote:
Pruitt wrote:This is all making me into a (temporary) hard ass, so I can just imagine what the average German is thinking about his country's open hearted embrace of refugees.
"Fuck. I can see why they're fleeing."

No shit!

(I read A Most Wanted Man a month or so ago, and I tell you, John Le Carre is a master at capturing the zeitgeist of political intrigue, IMO...touches on a lot of that stuff and was written a five years ago and seems prescient)

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:41 pm

mister d wrote:
Pruitt wrote:This is all making me into a (temporary) hard ass, so I can just imagine what the average German is thinking about his country's open hearted embrace of refugees.
"Fuck. I can see why they're fleeing."

Bingo. For every one "refugee" who is traveling to Europe with the intent of committing violent acts, there are probably tens of thousands who are fleeing out of genuine fear of being killed by ISIS. If Europe and the US close their doors to all Syrian and Iraqi refugees it may have the effect of preventing some terrorist attacks against the West, but will have the effect of inflicting far more death and suffering on innocent civilians in the Middle East.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:47 pm

Joe K wrote:
mister d wrote:
Pruitt wrote:This is all making me into a (temporary) hard ass, so I can just imagine what the average German is thinking about his country's open hearted embrace of refugees.
"Fuck. I can see why they're fleeing."
Bingo. For every one "refugee" who is traveling to Europe with the intent of committing violent acts, there are probably tens of thousands who are fleeing out of genuine fear of being killed by ISIS. If Europe and the US close their doors to all Syrian and Iraqi refugees it may have the effect of preventing some terrorist attacks against the West, but will have the effect of inflicting far more death and suffering on innocent civilians in the Middle East.

OK, I am not typically super motivated to post in political threads because I admit to my ignorance and prefer to follow along and try to form opinions. But I agree 100% with the part I bolded.

And I also think that's OK. It sounds insensitive, but for example, say I'm in a situation with my family where I have to decide to protect them versus protecting people I don't know at all. Perfect case, maybe I can help everyone, but my first concern is those closest to me. So isn't it at least somewhat reasonable to think locally first, then globally? I know that's a terribly simplistic scenario and train of thought but I can see it's merits.

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:55 pm

A_B wrote:
Joe K wrote:
mister d wrote:
Pruitt wrote:This is all making me into a (temporary) hard ass, so I can just imagine what the average German is thinking about his country's open hearted embrace of refugees.
"Fuck. I can see why they're fleeing."
Bingo. For every one "refugee" who is traveling to Europe with the intent of committing violent acts, there are probably tens of thousands who are fleeing out of genuine fear of being killed by ISIS. If Europe and the US close their doors to all Syrian and Iraqi refugees it may have the effect of preventing some terrorist attacks against the West, but will have the effect of inflicting far more death and suffering on innocent civilians in the Middle East.
OK, I am not typically super motivated to post in political threads because I admit to my ignorance and prefer to follow along and try to form opinions. But I agree 100% with the part I bolded.

And I also think that's OK. It sounds insensitive, but for example, say I'm in a situation with my family where I have to decide to protect them versus protecting people I don't know at all. Perfect case, maybe I can help everyone, but my first concern is those closest to me. So isn't it at least somewhat reasonable to think locally first, then globally? I know that's a terribly simplistic scenario and train of thought but I can see it's merits.

To paraphrase Spock: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the pointlessly irrational"

To be fair, I understand your thought process. What I don't understand is why many people automatically associate people who are fleeing a war-torn region with the people that are doing the war-tearing just because they look the same as each other and different from us.

If you're really a radical and you want to inflict as much harm as possible, wouldn't the simplest solution be to lie about everything and disassociate yourself with anything to do with that part of the world, then strike? If you begin turning people away because of the way they look or their religious tendencies, what does that accomplish? I hate to use the analogy, but there is a hint of truth to it: when you take away the legal means of law abiding people, the people who aren't affected tend to be those who have already decided to forsake the law. Be that with guns, or drugs, or whatever.

Again. Speaking in generalities here. Not calling you out for your thoughts on the matter.