The Swamp

Yeah, that's not my position at all.

I do stand by this though. If that women had called it hurtful or mean to be mistaken for a black or gay person, she would have been raked over the coals.

I don't like a belief being compared to an inherency. "... mean/hurtful to be called a conservative" or something plays better.

No, I know what you mean but if our skin tone or sexual orientation is a product of genetics, aren't our brains as well? Certainly our experiences and observations influence what we think and that's not inherent but belief still occurs in the brain. In fact, because we're a tribal species, credulity itself is a product of natural selection.

One can change and one can't.

Jerloma wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:43 am Being atheist is no more of a choice than being black or gay...it's just easier to hide.

So, you feel you were born that way? Were you attracted to other atheists at an early age? Did you experiment or "play around" with other atheists in college? Did your parents force you to go to atheist-aversion therapy (or, "church", as it's commonly known)?

I'm gonna call bullshit on atheism not being a choice. You could just as easily turn that around and say faith in a higher being is not a choice (which it absolutely is).

That said, you absolutely shouldn't be criticized, ostracized or otherwise in anyway punished for being an atheist.

brian wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:02 pm I'm gonna call bullshit on atheism not being a choice. You could just as easily turn that around and say faith in a higher being is not a choice (which it absolutely is).

That said, you absolutely shouldn't be criticized, ostracized or otherwise in anyway punished for being an atheist.

I dunno. I like the idea of Jerloma with a persecution complex.

Absolutely not a choice. Your experiences and observations are going to lead you to come to conclusions about the world which granted, aren't set in stone because different experiences can change your conclusions, but you can't make yourself believe in something. You can choose to say that you believe deities or fairies or the fucking Easter Bunny exist, sure, but you can't choose to actually believe it. That's not belief...that's just intellectual dishonesty.

Jerloma wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:45 pm Absolutely not a choice. Your experiences and observations are going to lead you to come to conclusions about the world which granted, aren't set in stone because different experiences can change your conclusions, but you can't make yourself believe in something. You can choose to say that you believe deities or fairies or the fucking Easter Bunny exist, sure, but you can't choose to actually believe it. That's not belief...that's just intellectual dishonesty.

Let's say you are on a jury, in court. Your observations of the evidence presented lead you to come to conclusions regarding the guilt or innocence of the defendant. You are an honest person and will vote to convict or not convict based solely on your conclusion. Are you not making a choice to convict or not convict?

Jerloma wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:45 pm Absolutely not a choice. Your experiences and observations are going to lead you to come to conclusions about the world which granted, aren't set in stone because different experiences can change your conclusions, but you can't make yourself believe in something. You can choose to say that you believe deities or fairies or the fucking Easter Bunny exist, sure, but you can't choose to actually believe it. That's not belief...that's just intellectual dishonesty.

So someone who believes in God and says they don't have a choice of whether or not to believe in God would be correct then?

Jerloma wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:45 pm Absolutely not a choice. Your experiences and observations are going to lead you to come to conclusions about the world which granted, aren't set in stone because different experiences can change your conclusions, but you can't make yourself believe in something. You can choose to say that you believe deities or fairies or the fucking Easter Bunny exist, sure, but you can't choose to actually believe it. That's not belief...that's just intellectual dishonesty.

I don't think belief means what you're trying to make it mean.

Given where I was born, being a NY Rangers fan is just as much of an inherent trait as, say, race or gender or sexual orientation and I will not hear otherwise.

brian wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:51 pm

Jerloma wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:45 pm Absolutely not a choice. Your experiences and observations are going to lead you to come to conclusions about the world which granted, aren't set in stone because different experiences can change your conclusions, but you can't make yourself believe in something. You can choose to say that you believe deities or fairies or the fucking Easter Bunny exist, sure, but you can't choose to actually believe it. That's not belief...that's just intellectual dishonesty.

So someone who believes in God and says they don't have a choice of whether or not to believe in God would be correct then?

Assuming that this is a sincere belief, then yes.

A_B wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:54 pm

Jerloma wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:45 pm Absolutely not a choice. Your experiences and observations are going to lead you to come to conclusions about the world which granted, aren't set in stone because different experiences can change your conclusions, but you can't make yourself believe in something. You can choose to say that you believe deities or fairies or the fucking Easter Bunny exist, sure, but you can't choose to actually believe it. That's not belief...that's just intellectual dishonesty.

I don't think belief means what you're trying to make it mean.

I hate the word belief. It's become so watered down that people think there is something different about thinking something is true or believing is something true. Never is that more prevalent than in religion. That's why you'll very rarely hear a religious person describe their feeling about the supernatural as something they think, but something they believe. Like it comes from the heart and not the brain. Your heart pumps blood. That's it.

sancarlos wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:51 pm

Jerloma wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:45 pm Absolutely not a choice. Your experiences and observations are going to lead you to come to conclusions about the world which granted, aren't set in stone because different experiences can change your conclusions, but you can't make yourself believe in something. You can choose to say that you believe deities or fairies or the fucking Easter Bunny exist, sure, but you can't choose to actually believe it. That's not belief...that's just intellectual dishonesty.

Let's say you are on a jury, in court. Your observations of the evidence presented lead you to come to conclusions regarding the guilt or innocence of the defendant. You are an honest person and will vote to convict or not convict based solely on your conclusion. Are you not making a choice to convict or not convict?

Not really, no. If I'm an honest person and the evidence has led me to a conclusion, I can't just come to a different conclusion. My critical faculties have already made it for me. If there was a choice, I'd be able to convict, even if the evidence led me to exonerate.

Jerloma wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:34 pm

sancarlos wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:51 pm

Jerloma wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:45 pm Absolutely not a choice. Your experiences and observations are going to lead you to come to conclusions about the world which granted, aren't set in stone because different experiences can change your conclusions, but you can't make yourself believe in something. You can choose to say that you believe deities or fairies or the fucking Easter Bunny exist, sure, but you can't choose to actually believe it. That's not belief...that's just intellectual dishonesty.

Let's say you are on a jury, in court. Your observations of the evidence presented lead you to come to conclusions regarding the guilt or innocence of the defendant. You are an honest person and will vote to convict or not convict based solely on your conclusion. Are you not making a choice to convict or not convict?

Not really, no. If I'm an honest person and the evidence has led me to a conclusion, I can't just come to a different conclusion. My critical faculties have already made it for me. If there was a choice, I'd be able to convict, even if the evidence led me to exonerate.

...because it is God's predetermined plan and we lack free will. Now you get it.

sancarlos wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:37 pm

Do they have...Grave concerns?

Jerloma wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:34 pm

sancarlos wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:51 pm

Jerloma wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:45 pm Absolutely not a choice. Your experiences and observations are going to lead you to come to conclusions about the world which granted, aren't set in stone because different experiences can change your conclusions, but you can't make yourself believe in something. You can choose to say that you believe deities or fairies or the fucking Easter Bunny exist, sure, but you can't choose to actually believe it. That's not belief...that's just intellectual dishonesty.

Let's say you are on a jury, in court. Your observations of the evidence presented lead you to come to conclusions regarding the guilt or innocence of the defendant. You are an honest person and will vote to convict or not convict based solely on your conclusion. Are you not making a choice to convict or not convict?

Not really, no. If I'm an honest person and the evidence has led me to a conclusion, I can't just come to a different conclusion. My critical faculties have already made it for me. If there was a choice, I'd be able to convict, even if the evidence led me to exonerate.

you have to be incorrect about this, because I 100% agree with you. my lack of faith is not a choice. I just dont have whatever it is imside of me that lets people believe in god. i wish i did, life would be easier and more comfortable if I could turn the switch on and believe in God and Heaven and all that shit, but if im honest with myself I just cant buy a single word of that horseshit

TT2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:01 am
you have to be incorrect about this, because I 100% agree with you. my lack of faith is not a choice. I just dont have whatever it is imside of me that lets people believe in god. i wish i did, life would be easier and more comfortable if I could turn the switch on and believe in God and Heaven and all that shit, but if im honest with myself I just cant buy a single word of that horseshit

Your post swayed me a bit, TT. I wasn't on board, but your post describes my religious take. I started to disagree, as I believed in God until I was in 7th grade, and really gave it some thought, but then I realized there probably wasn't a possibility that I wouldn't eventually critically think about the concept of God, and what I learned in Hebrew School, and formed my own opinion. I had an epiphany when learning about Native American religion and their Creation myth. Everyone in my class laughed at the preposterousness of the story, and I realized the Judeo-Christian Creation myth is equally silly, if heard for the first time at an older age. I've always been fascinated learning about other religions, and trying to view it from the perspective of a believer, so if not for that moment of epiphany, I would have read or learned something soon after that set off the epiphany.

Kind of a dick move if you ask me. Unless those he narced on were doing anything with underage kids.

brian wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:58 am Kind of a dick move if you ask me. Unless those he narced on were doing anything with underage kids.

Is it?

If he was outing men in just about any other organization, I would agree wholeheartedly. But these Priests represent a group that treats gays as less than full human beings.

Pruitt wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:06 am

brian wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:58 am Kind of a dick move if you ask me. Unless those he narced on were doing anything with underage kids.

Is it?

If he was outing men in just about any other organization, I would agree wholeheartedly. But these Priests represent a group that treats gays as less than full human beings.

In Italy, probably yeah. In the United States, it's not that simple. For example, the dioceses in New York City and Detroit (and presumably other major cities, though I only personally know people who attend Catholic churches in those cities) are very open and welcoming toward gay Catholics and don't even mention homosexuality or touch on any of the fire and brimstone bullshit like you get with evangelical churches.

I wasn't aware of the (relative) liberalization of the church in the States. Probably would be a different story then.

To be sure, it's a touchy subject (no pun intended I swear) since obviously any kind of sexual activity isn't allowed for clergy -- gay or straight. But I would feel similarly about any attempt to "out" clergy having consensual heterosexual relationships.

Sooner or later I think the Catholic Church is going to figure out that to keep itself alive it's going to have to give up the ghost on celibacy. Might even happen in our lifetimes, but probably won't be this Vatican leadership.

Given that the point of it is to "live like Christ" (Presumed to be celibate) I don't think they're ever going to let that one go.

A_B wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:45 am Given that the point of it is to "live like Christ" (Presumed to be celibate) I don't think they're ever going to let that one go.

And if you told a gay dude 50 years ago he'd be able to get married in every state in the union in 2017 he'd have said you're crazy. Things change.

Pruitt wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:21 am I wasn't aware of the (relative) liberalization of the church in the States. Probably would be a different story then.

On the spectrum of Christianity, Catholic is liberal. It took me reading some comment from a rando in a Reddit thread for me to see it.

And I watched The Last Temptation of Christ in religion class in my Catholic High School.

A_B wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:45 am Given that the point of it is to "live like Christ" (Presumed to be celibate) I don't think they're ever going to let that one go.

Conveniently enough, the Bible glosses over Jesus from age 12 to 33. So, yea.

brian wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:11 am

Pruitt wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:06 am

brian wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:58 am Kind of a dick move if you ask me. Unless those he narced on were doing anything with underage kids.

Is it?

If he was outing men in just about any other organization, I would agree wholeheartedly. But these Priests represent a group that treats gays as less than full human beings.

In Italy, probably yeah. In the United States, it's not that simple. For example, the dioceses in New York City and Detroit (and presumably other major cities, though I only personally know people who attend Catholic churches in those cities) are very open and welcoming toward gay Catholics and don't even mention homosexuality or touch on any of the fire and brimstone bullshit like you get with evangelical churches.

Same here in RI but "open to gay catholics" (and seriously how the fuck is that a thing, gays?) is very relative. They still don't allow them to be priests and they still won't marry them. Sure, they might let them in and take their money but some of that money is still allocated to ding, ding, ding...lobbying against their rights.

No doubt. I'm not arguing Catholicism is a bastion of liberality or isn't still rife with hypocrisy, just saying that I'm not cool with outing anyone as long as they're not breaking any laws.

The relative "liberalization" of Catholic churches varies wildly from parish/region to parish/region. I really only attend Mass when I'm with an out-of-town relative (easier to just go along to get along). Here in my town, they are liberal like Brian notes. In New Mexico where my parents live, and St. Charles county, Missouri, where the in-laws live, they might as well be evangelicals.

A_B wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:45 am Given that the point of it is to "live like Christ" (Presumed to be celibate) I don't think they're ever going to let that one go.

Priests weren't celibate for the first 1000 years of the Catholic Church, so it has not about "living like Christ." Priests were passing on Church property and wealth through inheritance. It was a lot more about maintaining wealth and power for the Church than being Christ-like, or sacrificing to show dedication to God.

With no longer being bound to the will of my wife, I've decided that I'm no longer partaking in any Easter activities. Why, you ask? Well, I don't think a Bronze Age, Palestinian carpenter rose from the dead, I don't think there's anything virtuous about believing that, and frankly the idea that everyone will be rewarded with eternal bliss for thinking that while everyone who doesn't think that will be eternally tortured is vile and I refuse to lend it any credence.

Anyway, what's a cool tradition I can start doing by myself while everyone else is celebrating their reward for child blood sacrifice? What do you do on Easter, Jews?

Jerloma wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:34 am With no longer being bound to the will of my wife, I've decided that I'm no longer partaking in any Easter activities. Why, you ask? Well, I don't think a Bronze Age, Palestinian carpenter rose from the dead, I don't think there's anything virtuous about believing that, and frankly the idea that everyone will be rewarded with eternal bliss for thinking that while everyone who doesn't think that will be eternally tortured is vile and I refuse to lend it any credence.

Anyway, what's a cool tradition I can start doing by myself while everyone else is celebrating their reward for child blood sacrifice? What do you do on Easter, Jews?

Sunday.

Jerloma wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:34 am With no longer being bound to the will of my wife, I've decided that I'm no longer partaking in any Easter activities. Why, you ask? Well, I don't think a Bronze Age, Palestinian carpenter rose from the dead, I don't think there's anything virtuous about believing that, and frankly the idea that everyone will be rewarded with eternal bliss for thinking that while everyone who doesn't think that will be eternally tortured is vile and I refuse to lend it any credence.

Anyway, what's a cool tradition I can start doing by myself while everyone else is celebrating their reward for child blood sacrifice? What do you do on Easter, Jews?

Well, it seems I will be dying Easter Eggs for the first time in my life.

Jerloma wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:34 amAnyway, what's a cool tradition I can start doing by myself while everyone else is celebrating their reward for child blood sacrifice?

Could go back to Easter's pagan roots as the celebration of the Sumerian goddess of sex and war.

Jerloma wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:34 amAnyway, what's a cool tradition I can start doing by myself while everyone else is celebrating their reward for child blood sacrifice?

I like to read up on how the Bronze Age ended about 1,000 years before Jesus was born. And pedantry.

Jerloma wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:34 am
Anyway, what's a cool tradition I can start doing by myself while everyone else is celebrating their reward for child blood sacrifice? What do you do on Easter, Jews?

The Eastern European Jewish Easter tradition involved cowering in barns and forests avoiding enraged Cossacks, Poles, Ukranians etc., looking for vengeance for the death of Christ. Easter marked the traditional start of pogrom season.

This year, the first seder for Passover is on Good Friday, so we'll be feasting and drinking (but NOT the blood of Christian children as is widely believed from the Danube to points east).

I might go to the track on Easter Sunday. That's a good tradition.

P.D.X. wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:37 pm

Jerloma wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:34 amAnyway, what's a cool tradition I can start doing by myself while everyone else is celebrating their reward for child blood sacrifice?

Could go back to Easter's pagan roots as the celebration of the Sumerian goddess of sex and war.

That sounds phenomenal. I thought it was just about crops returning or some shit.