The Swamp

Here ya go Johnnie....Blast away!

Ok then. I figured we'd just change the title to the other one. When I'm not trying to catch up on sleep or go to work I'll post something more elaborate here

But first...Fin has to be Lando's kid right? You can't tell me that Billy D. Williams wasn't smashing broads across that galaxy being the only black guy. Where's Maury when you need him?

And I knew Han was dead as soon as he saw Kylo. It fits the "good guy dies" in the first episode of each trilogy trope. Except Qui Gon was saving Obi Wan and Obi Wan, Luke.

Finally...At first I thought Rey was Han and Leia's kid. It seemed perfect when, upon meeting and escaping in the Millennium Falcon together, they said the same thing and looked at each other for a moment. Then when it was revealed Kylo is their son, that threw me for a loop. And I figured Rey and he were twins. But when Leia finally met Rey and had no emotion that idea went south. How would a mom and father not say something about the daughter? Unless that's a deep spoiler for Episode 9.

Sooooo...until otherwise told...Rey is Luke's daughter. And I think her twin is the X Fighter pilot Poe. The twins thing fits the symmetry.

Huh.
Huh.

OK, so SO much better than the prequels. But, I think it somewhat suffered from one of the big problems that EPI is accused of, which is basically the movie ends right where we really wanted the story to pick up (though ending without a word from Luke was ballsy). And I realize keeping the story small is a plus and helped propel the movie and draw you in, but I think I could have used a little touch of Lucas-style (over)exposition at some point, because blaster to my head, based solely on what I just saw on the screen (and no other supplemental materials), I have no idea what the difference is between the Resistance and the Republic and why that mattered at the end when they were forced into a reslly hastily thrown together attack on the FO base.

I assumed from the time this was announced Han would die. Ford wanted him to die in RoTJ.

And johnnie, I really hope all of your relation predictions turn out wrong. The #2 bad guy is already a Solo, (and there were enough coincidences involved with bringing all of these people together anyway), I don't need anymore Skywalkers popping up.

Plus the Finn prediction is totally racist.

Anyway, I really enjoyed but I think I'm happy I kept my expectations in check.

Dammit. The whole stupid internet is convinced that Rey is either Luke's kid or Han and Leia's (which makes no sense). I really hope you're all wrong. I could really live without knowing anything else about her backstory, and just assume she had shitty parents that sold her off to someone on Jakku.

Though I'll accept her being left with Max Von Sydow's character (otherwise you wasted him on less than a minute of screen time) by someone (Luke, or on his behalf) after Ben Solo goes wrong and Luke gives up the Jedi master gig. I couldn't really tell how old she was during her saber-induced flashback, but I guess she was youngling aged. That would explain why she picked up some of the Force stuff quickly, and why MVS (apparently he was named Lor San Tekka) has the map to Luke.

OK, here's my more in-depth review:

I'd rate it a step below A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back, but ahead of Return of the Jedi (which was by far the weakest of the first three). I'm honestly not quite sure how to compare it to the prequels, because while The Force Awakens is unquestionably leaps and bounds better in the areas of writing/acting/avoiding terrible ideas, the prequels were more ambitious in what they tried to be, even if they fell short. TFA is content to be a more conventional action movie with a few dramatic twists, and does it well.

My biggest criticism is that it felt too rushed in a lot of parts—like there were too many things they wanted to get in, but not enough time to do them all with full satisfaction. I would have liked to see, for example, more exploration into Finn's decision to defect, more of Rey's life on Jakku, more background on the rise of the First Order (the new Empire) and the Republic's efforts to oppose it. Instead the exposition was really clipped, and the movie rarely got a chance to really breathe. A few extraneous action scenes—especially that whole sequence on the freighter with the gangs and the octopus creatures—could have been cut in favor of some more reflective ones.

Also, the whole deal about the Starkiller base and the attack at the end, which was nominally the overriding threat of this episode, felt like an afterthought. There was never really a sense that it was that big of a deal at all—"Oh, by the way, they have another superweapon that can blow up planets, and is going to blow us up too in 15 minutes unless we attack this one vulnerable part." Came off as just another day at the office. The air battle was by far the least interesting part of the last act.

So I hope I don't sound too negative here—it's still a much better than average movie, and better than almost anything else that has ever tried to be Star Wars. The new characters and actors are all good, and there's a good foundation to build on with some interesting themes and angles that I hope are explored in the coming installments. The next one is being written and directed by the guy who made Looper, so hopefully he'll give us a more thoughtful, challenging take in the vein of Empire Strikes Back.

Argue away.

Not much argument with that. I think we'll learn more about pre-TFA Rey. I hope there isn't anything more to learn about pre-TFA Finn. It's OK if he's just some dude.

I thought about my Rey theory up above a little more, and I still like it, but I think it makes the coincidence of the Falcon being on Jakku, in Rey's little salvage-village, all the more coincidence-y.

It was really fantastic - I hope Ridley's character is Luke's daughter and I have no complaints.

tennbengal wrote:It was really fantastic - I hope Ridley's character is Luke's daughter and I have no complaints.

Ugh. Why? Isn't this galaxy far far away insular enough as it is?

And a Jedi shall not fuck. That's what did his pops in.

And you know what moment, now almost three days later, is bugging me the most, the one moment I think they just completely mishandled?

There is no fucking way Chewie doesn't go right to Leia for a hug after returning from the mission that saw his best friend in the entire galaxy (and her (ex?)husband) die. No. Way.

rass wrote:

tennbengal wrote:It was really fantastic - I hope Ridley's character is Luke's daughter and I have no complaints.

Ugh. Why? Isn't this galaxy far far away insular enough as it is?

And a Jedi shall not fuck. That's what did his pops in.

Because, luke was flawed, like all sky walkers we meet, and I have no problem believing he couldn't keep it in his pants. He was trained late and likely not to buy into the whole monk thing. Her being his daughter doesn't bother me at all.

They would need to spend a lot of time in at least one of the next two movies in flashback mode letting us get to know Rey's mom and why she was so important to Luke to come close to making it work for me.

Poe is not a related to Luke.

wookieepedia wrote: Poe Dameron was born two years before the Battle of Endor.[2] He was the son of Shara Bey and Kes Dameron, who both served the Alliance to Restore the Republic in the fight against the Galactic Empire during the Galactic Civil War.[6] As an infant, Dameron barely saw his parents due to continued operations against the Imperials following the Battle of Endor,[1] as his mother worked as a Rebel pilot for the Alliance's Green Squadron and his father was a member of the Pathfinders,[7] and was thus left in the care of his maternal grandfather.[6] Only after the Imperial remnant put forward Operation: Cinder did Dameron's parents leave Rebel service to reunite with him, settle on Yavin 4 and build a house—close to which they planted a Force-sensitive tree, a gift from Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker.[1] When Dameron was a kid, he learned how to fly using his mother's old RZ-1 A-wing interceptor. However when Dameron was nine, tragedy struck the Dameron family when his mother unexpectedly died.[4]

Well that's good to know.

I remember reading this when I was much, much younger. However, this was changed when Disney took over.

http://starwarsuniverse2.tripod.com/id6.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would rather rae be Luke's daughter than some virgin mithoclorian birth dealie - but would accept as an alternative she is some piece of palpatine's lineage.

Why can't she just be a kid born with Force sensitivity? They must exist in the SW universe, and Luke would have been recruiting them in some manner.

I hated the way all sorts of characters were tied together in the prequels (Anakin grew up on Tatooine, Anakin created C3PO, Anakin flew with R2, Yoda was BFF with Chewie) and it just doesn't seem necessary here.

Plus, (granted we don't exactly what happened yet) Luke already looks like a bit of dick here, abandoning the fight because of his failure with Ben Solo. He'll look even worse if he dumped his daughter, too.

rass wrote:Why can't she just be a kid born with Force sensitivity? They must exist in the SW universe, and Luke would have been recruiting them in some manner.

I hated the way all sorts of characters were tied together in the prequels (Anakin grew up on Tatooine, Anakin created C3PO, Anakin flew with R2, Yoda was BFF with Chewie) and it just doesn't seem necessary here.

Plus, (granted we don't exactly what happened yet) Luke already looks like a bit of dick here, abandoning the fight because of his failure with Ben Solo. He'll look even worse if he dumped his daughter, too.

I guess - it's just that they (Lucas really) such an awful job giving any context to the Force, how the jedi/sith came into being, etc., that it is probably easier to keep telling the story through the lens of the House of Skywalker. If they want to start 8 with a 10 minute deep narration "set the stakes" backstory (like the first 15 minutes of Fellowship of the Ring, say) I would be all for that. Will need to know more about WHY Ray is so special I guess, other than just randomly force sensitive.

As for why I think she is his daughter, this line, I guess:

"This was Luke's lightsaber, and his father's before him, now it calls to you" (close enough).

tennbengal wrote:As for why I think she is his daughter, this line, I guess:

"This was Luke's lightsaber, and his father's before him, now it calls to you" (close enough).

Grrrr. Don't forget the trailer that borrowed Luke's "the Force is strong in my family..." speech from RoTJ. Grrrr.


Something else that bugged me, and I'm willing to accept I might have just missed, is exactly who/what was blown up by the one time we saw the Starkiller base discharge its weapon? Random planets? Random FIRST ORDER conquered planets? Major REPUBLIC targets?

In that same vein, I guess I've worked out the difference between the REPUBLIC and the RESISTANCE (likely REPUBLIC friendly forces rebelling against the FIRST ORDER in FIRST ORDER controlled territory) but I still don't get if the forces available to Leia and co. at the end were so minimal because of the ticking clock scenario (the powering up of the super weapon) or because the earlier attack had somehow devastated REPUBLIC forces.

Relief.

That's the biggest takeaway for me. I'd seen a lot of positive reviews, but until I saw it myself I was still slightly nervous. But the franchise has been restored, fully in my eyes.

In response to some of the comments in here:

* One of the driving themes/devices of this franchise is that while it's a vast galaxy, the story is told through a surprisingly tiny band of characters. It seems pretty consistent to me that Rey would be Luke's daughter.

* I agree with the criticism that a number of plot points seemed thin. Particularly rass' comments on Republic - Resistance, why those particular planets were targeted, and the ho-hum let's go attack the big weapon with a clock ticking down deal. Burn 2 or 3 minutes (not half of a movie like in the prequels) telling me what the politics are.

* The younger cast members were all A+. A little cheesy with the bro-dog stuff between Finn and Po, but kind of inline with Han-Luke dynamic. I actually bought into the Rey-Finn stuff more than the Luke-Leia-Han dynamic, but that's a little unfair because when I experienced the first trilogy I was all "ew, girls."

* I did very little digging around before the movie, so I didn't know anything about the Po character and the actor who played him. It was bugging me the entire movie and I had to look it up this morning... Dude was in Ex Machina! Amazing actor.

Count me in the camp that hopes Rey isn't related to anyone of note. We already have one new central character who's a child of the others, even if the theme is inverted.

There's a theory brewing that Rey was one of the students at Luke's academy who Kylo missed or spared, and then had her mind wiped.

rass wrote:Something else that bugged me, and I'm willing to accept I might have just missed, is exactly who/what was blown up by the one time we saw the Starkiller base discharge its weapon? Random planets? Random FIRST ORDER conquered planets? Major REPUBLIC targets?

Nonlinear FC wrote:* I agree with the criticism that a number of plot points seemed thin. Particularly rass' comments on Republic - Resistance, why those particular planets were targeted, and the ho-hum let's go attack the big weapon with a clock ticking down deal. Burn 2 or 3 minutes (not half of a movie like in the prequels) telling me what the politics are.

Apparently those were some of the core worlds of the Republic. The one that got the close-up before destruction was the capital world.

Agreed with your points here. I talked before about the movie feeling too rushed, and this was where it could have really used just a little background. It felt like they were actively afraid to stop for exposition, thinking it would bore people. I usually don't care much for "extended cuts," but am really hoping they do one here when it's released on video.

Johnny Carwash wrote:

rass wrote:Something else that bugged me, and I'm willing to accept I might have just missed, is exactly who/what was blown up by the one time we saw the Starkiller base discharge its weapon? Random planets? Random FIRST ORDER conquered planets? Major REPUBLIC targets?

Nonlinear FC wrote:* I agree with the criticism that a number of plot points seemed thin. Particularly rass' comments on Republic - Resistance, why those particular planets were targeted, and the ho-hum let's go attack the big weapon with a clock ticking down deal. Burn 2 or 3 minutes (not half of a movie like in the prequels) telling me what the politics are.

Apparently those were some of the core worlds of the Republic. The one that got the close-up before destruction was the capital world.

Agreed with your points here. I talked before about the movie feeling too rushed, and this was where it could have really used just a little background. It felt like they were actively afraid to stop for exposition, thinking it would bore people. I usually don't care much for "extended cuts," but am really hoping they do one here when it's released on video.

If that is the case then it was way too downplayed.

And Luke comes off as an even bigger dick for staying on top of that island even though he must have sensed something horrible happening (OWK style from ANH).

Johnny Carwash wrote:Count me in the camp that hopes Rey isn't related to anyone of note. We already have one new central character who's a child of the others, even if the theme is inverted.

There's a theory brewing that Rey was one of the students at Luke's academy who Kylo missed or spared, and then had her mind wiped.

I mentioned that earlier, and I still like it. I think it can tie everyone together without being incestual.

Going to be interesting to see how they explain what happened with Luke's Jedi academy in such a way that makes Luke's hermit act acceptable but still leaves room for the audience to have some sympathy for Kylo Ren, the latter assuming he is going to continue to follow some sort of Vader arc and eventually redeem himself. The kid slaughter in RotS was Anakin's point of no return, so...

From people with more time on their hands and way more passion than me - the Rey vision sequence:

1) She's walking down the hallway in Cloud City (where Luke fought Vader)
2) She observes Luke placing a hand on R2 with a fire in the background (assumes he's burning the bodies of slain Jedi)
3) A man attacking Rey from her observation point is impaled by Kylo Ren's lightsaber (assumes Ren saves a young Rey from one of the KoR)
4) Zoom out to the other Knights of Ren in the rain with several bodies strewn about behind them
5) Young Rey being left on Jakku with Unkar Plutt (junk salesman) as she watches a spaceship take off (presumably her parent(s))
6) Rey in the snowy forest confronting Kylo Ren (future at the time, happens at the end of the movie).

Lots of voice cameos as well during those flashbacks including Hamill screaming NOOOO (from ESB), Frank Oz (Yoda) talking about the energy of the force, Ewan McGregor (Obiwan) saying Rey's name.

tennbengal wrote:From people with more time on their hands and way more passion than me - the Rey vision sequence:

1) She's walking down the hallway in Cloud City (where Luke fought Vader)
2) She observes Luke placing a hand on R2 with a fire in the background (assumes he's burning the bodies of slain Jedi)
3) A man attacking Rey from her observation point is impaled by Kylo Ren's lightsaber (assumes Ren saves a young Rey from one of the KoR)
4) Zoom out to the other Knights of Ren in the rain with several bodies strewn about behind them
5) Young Rey being left on Jakku with Unkar Plutt (junk salesman) as she watches a spaceship take off (presumably her parent(s))
6) Rey in the snowy forest confronting Kylo Ren (future at the time, happens at the end of the movie).

Lots of voice cameos as well during those flashbacks including Hamill screaming NOOOO (from ESB), Frank Oz (Yoda) talking about the energy of the force, Ewan McGregor (Obiwan) saying Rey's name.

Also they lifted a "Rey" from some dialogue where Alec Guiness was saying "Afraid"...

Nonlinear FC wrote: * I did very little digging around before the movie, so I didn't know anything about the Po character and the actor who played him. It was bugging me the entire movie and I had to look it up this morning... Dude was in Ex Machina! Amazing actor.

My comment to the GF as we were walking out of the theater last night was: "Can Oscar Issac just be in every movie from now on?". The guy is so good in everything...

"Drive", "Inside Llewyn Davis", "A Most Violent Year", "Ex Machina", "Show Me A Here" (HBO mini-series)...all totally solid work.

And his IMDB page says he's going to be in the new X-Men movie...

Isaac actually just confirmed in an interview that Poe was originally supposed to die in the early part of the movie (presumably when the TIE fighter crashes), but then Abrams changed his mind. That would explain why Poe kind of just disappears for a while and has comparatively little to do for the rest of the movie.

Johnny Carwash wrote:Isaac actually just confirmed in an interview that Poe was originally supposed to die in the early part of the movie (presumably when the TIE fighter crashes), but then Abrams changed his mind. That would explain why Poe kind of just disappears for a while and has comparatively little to do for the rest of the movie.

As I read somewhere this morning, the fact that he just up and leaves Jakku without finding BB-8 or completing his mission would seem to be a bit of a plothole (unless he was turned or was a double-agent all along, in which case he really committed to the part what with blowing up the FO base).

So, I almost want to put thin is Proud Parents thread, but I'd get in trouble. My daughter sat through the entire Machete catch-up, finishing yesterday around 1:30 with RotJ. (My son didn't need to, he was already deep in.) By the time we got to the theater she was bouncing off the walls.

She cried her eyes out when Han bit it and was still pissed deep into last night.

She's IN, baby.

Nonlinear FC wrote: She cried her eyes out when Han bit it and was still pissed deep into last night.

I still can't believe that I made to yesterday afternoon's screening without seeing a spoiler about that.

DaveInSeattle wrote:

Nonlinear FC wrote: She cried her eyes out when Han bit it and was still pissed deep into last night.

I still can't believe that I made to yesterday afternoon's screening without seeing a spoiler about that.

I wanted to throatpunch a guy after the movie who very loudly was in the lobby saying "i knew when he walked out on that bridge that he was dead".

tennbengal wrote:It was really fantastic - I hope Ridley's character is Luke's daughter and I have no complaints.

tennbengal wrote:As for why I think she is his daughter, this line, I guess:

"This was Luke's lightsaber, and his father's before him, now it calls to you" (close enough).

I’m with TB on both of these.

My family went yesterday. I was surprised at how much I got into it as show time approached, and when the theme music started and the words started crawling up the screen, I welled up. I haven’t bothered to see any of the trailers, and I didn’t even see the last two prequels. I’ve never sat the kids down and showed them any of the movies.

But I was 12 when Star Wars came out – my birthday party was going to see it. So I guess I am in the right demographic to get really choked up at this.

When Han and Chewie first appeared on the screen, my 12yo daughter asked me if they were good guys or bad guys. I’ve apparently been a horrible father.

Regarding the complaining that Rey being Luke’s daughter is just too much of a coincidence, I think that ship sailed in the first ten minutes of Star Wars when the rebel ship was captured right above Luke and Obi Wan’s planet so the escape pod could land there. But I guess the movie can say, in its defense, that since the Force runs through all living things, the Force can make coincidences like that happen when they need to. Like the Ring could make things happen in Lord of the Rings. I can accept that coincidence a lot more than the ones they forced into the first prequel.

There’s a good explainer about the Republic-Resistance-First Order-Empire here: http://www.vox.com/2015/12/21/10634568/ ... irst-order" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(By the way, I’m doing my best to follow all the acronyms. But who/what is EPI?)

DaveInSeattle wrote:

Nonlinear FC wrote: She cried her eyes out when Han bit it and was still pissed deep into last night.

I still can't believe that I made to yesterday afternoon's screening without seeing a spoiler about that.

I was talking to my wife about that, when my daughter chimed in with this nugget.

Her science teacher (she's a sophomore in HS) told the class that if they didn't behave, he'd spoil a major part of the movie, having to do with one of the "legacy characters" dying.

She was pretty pissed after the movie, because it was pretty obvious to her what was going to happen.

(BTW, the moment you knew with absolute certainty was when he handed the detonator to Chewie.)

EPI = episode 1 = The Phantom Menace

I'm not complaining about the coincidental nature of Rey being a Skywalker (though the coincidence it lessened somewhat by the guy Leia was looking for to help find Luke also being the guy Luke trusted to keep an eye on Rey, if my guess from earlier works out). I just don't need or want everyone of significance to be part of the family. Not to mention the other issues I mentioned earlier (having to establish Rey's mom and her relationship with Luke, presumably in full-on flashback mode, and Luke being willing to just abandon his kid).

I saw it yesterday morning with my 8 year old son and loved it. Some of my favorite parts that weren't big plot events were when Kylo Ren stopped Poe's blaster bolt mid-air, Finn and Rey repairing the Millennium Falcon and hiding in the storage bay just like in Star Wars, C3-P0's re-introduction, and when Rey discovered she could resist Kylo Ren's mind control.

I'm strongly considering seeing it again in the theater, I don't think I've ever seen anything twice in the theater during a first run.

My thoughts after seeing the movie yesterday:

-Loved it. Felt much more as part of the Star Wars I remember as a kid than the prequels did. I thought it was much more "organic", and I think that part of that was that they actually built sets, rather than just green screening everything.

-Had some really funny lines. I liked the Solo "Well, we started with a bigger crew" line.

-Adam Driver as the BadGuy was pretty amusing. If you've ever seen him in "Girls" or in the movie "While we're young", you'll know why I almost laughed when he took the helmet off.

-I thought the new main characters, Rey and Finn, were good. As I heard some critics saying on a podcast, they've set up the next movies very well, and I'm excited to see where they go.

-The 3D was well done, but not obnoxiously intrustive.

-I wonder if Harrison Ford told the producers "Ok...I'll do it...but only this one, than I'm out".

-I'll probably take my kids to see it next week, if they haven't seen it by then. I haven't watched a movie twice in the theater in a really long time.

Was curious about one particular actor who showed up as an X-wing pilot that I had seen but could not remember where nor knew his name.


Greg Grunberg (Heros, Hawaii 5-0) He was also in Star Trek.

Also, Unkar Plutt (guy in the cage giving rations for scrap) was Simon Pegg

So Pegg, Grunberg, and J.J. can all point to being part of two the biggest nerd series out there. Pegg maybe able to one up them both as he also has had a part in Dr. Who.

Also Adam Driver (Ben Solo/Kylo Ren) was in Inside Llewyn Davis and a voice for the Simpsons this year.

Giff wrote:

DaveInSeattle wrote:

Nonlinear FC wrote: She cried her eyes out when Han bit it and was still pissed deep into last night.

I still can't believe that I made to yesterday afternoon's screening without seeing a spoiler about that.

I wanted to throatpunch a guy after the movie who very loudly was in the lobby saying "i knew when he walked out on that bridge that he was dead".

I leaned next to my friend and said "I have a bad feeling about this."

Also, I've taken to calling Kylo Ren as the Millennial Sith. Because Adam Driver just has that face and because he gives the character such annoyance to me.

I had trouble with Adam Driver, not gonna lie. I don't watch Girls and he's actually one of the reasons why... I just find him annoying. And not in the "a guy that's fun to hate" kind of way.

He put in a great performance, so it's not like it really detracted from the movie for me, but if there was one thing I would change, it'd be to find someone I don't already have some kind of negative reaction to when he comes on screen.

This is how much I wasn't digging into the movie beforehand. I know the guy by his face, not his name, so I had no idea he was even in the movie. And up until he took the mask off... Amazing. Then the mask comes off and all I can think about him humping Lena Dunham and arguing with Jane Fonda in that movie I watched on HBO last month.

I liked Driver the most of all the main new actors (and I liked them all), despite very limited familiarity with his work. The series tends to cast actors who fit neatly into a "type," so he was an unorthodox but inspired choice.

I've seen this point made a couple times elsewhere, and thought it was a good one: his character is like what the young Anakin in the prequels should have been.

Nonlinear FC wrote:He put in a great performance, so it's not like it really detracted from the movie for me, but if there was one thing I would change, it'd be to find someone I don't already have some kind of negative reaction to when he comes on screen.

Well, having a negative reaction to the Big Bad is okay - but having an "are you kidding me? This guy is the new evil lord?" is probably not what they were going for.

vandwagon wrote:I'm strongly considering seeing it again in the theater, I don't think I've ever seen anything twice in the theater during a first run.

Heh. I saw the original movie six or seven times during the first run. And I will go see this one again as soon as I get past the Christmas rush.