Guns: Infinity

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:02 am

I think looking at the past in this country will help answer your question. That is why I like history so much, the answers.

Tom 1860 · Post by **Tom 1860** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:08 am

howard wrote: Culture, Tom. Yeah. America has been a violent gun loving place for a long ass time. I started thinking about the English history in Ireland, how that related to the gun violence of the mid 20th century in Ulster. But, yeah history is long and stubborn.

You should watch John Ford's 'The Quiet Man' to get an Irish American's catholic view of post WWII America and what was going on in Ireland. It is not too hard to join the dots...

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:11 am

Regarding that retribution video, the whole pick-up artist club thing is really, really creepy. Not so much as creepy as the kid himself with that sadistic laugh. There's obviously a mental illness in play here. Not getting laid probably sucks but this kid obviously needed some major therapy.

Tom 1860 · Post by **Tom 1860** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:18 am

Jerloma wrote:Regarding that retribution video, the whole pick-up artist club thing is really, really creepy. Not so much as creepy as the kid himself with that sadistic laugh. There's obviously a mental illness in play here. Not getting laid probably sucks but this kid obviously needed some major therapy.

Not meaning to be a complete cunt or anything, but I think the fact that the guy murdered lots of people meant the cat was probably out of the bag on the 'mental illness' front. I didn't really need a video to confirm that...

Every country/culture/society has disillusioned young males needing tho be understood, not all of them have access to guns though...

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:25 am

Tom 1860 wrote:
Jerloma wrote:Regarding that retribution video, the whole pick-up artist club thing is really, really creepy. Not so much as creepy as the kid himself with that sadistic laugh. There's obviously a mental illness in play here. Not getting laid probably sucks but this kid obviously needed some major therapy.
Not meaning to be a complete cunt or anything, but I think the fact that the guy murdered lots of people meant the cat was probably out of the bag on the 'mental illness' front. I didn't really need a video to confirm that...

Every country/culture/society has disillusioned young males needing tho be understood, not all of them have access to guns though...

Oh yeah...I'm totally with you on the gun thing.

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:59 am

Tom 1860 wrote:
howard wrote:Tom:

Don't take my comments personally. This was not a measured, formal answer to your post, point by point. Just a post on the internet, not a deconstruction or a debate response. Of course I can do that if you like (but no one wants to see that.)

Some points I see as more relevant than the bs people want to indulge. Like magical thinking, 'if only we so something, things will wonderfully be better 50 years from now'.

The effects of choices we made as a society 50 years ago are coming home to roost. Many of those effects are permanent, or by now, the cure (full police state, government searching every home to confiscate weapons) is far far worse than the disease. But, we are inching toward that cure anyway. And plenty of folks on the teevee are screeching, 'why didn't the cops search this guy's apartment'? So, progress.

Culture, Tom. Yeah. America has been a violent gun loving place for a long ass time. I started thinking about the English history in Ireland, how that related to the gun violence of the mid 20th century in Ulster. But, yeah history is long and stubborn.
Not taken personally at all Howard and kind of like Pruitt (not really my problem). I just cannot, for whatever reason, get my head around people thinking that there is not a problem (I think lots of Americans think this way) and that the people owning guns is ever a good idea.

Thoughtful post up there Tom. Nice to get the outside the US perspective. I've got to throw my hat in on Howard's side here though. It is a reality we must find a better solution for. As far as these mass shootings go, I firmly believe the media has so much to do with it as the trot these things out for weeks at a time, enshrining and discussing and dissecting the perpetrator that I can see how someone with a mental issue could logically reach the conclusion, "yes. I'll get a gun and kill as many people as I see and those who have bothered me or tormented me and then they will prop me up in the limelight and the masses will understand my pain and I will finally get the attention I deserve".

You asked the question why people ever think owning guns is a good idea. I've got 3. You might not agree with them, but I know Johnnie and Howard have offered their perspectives and I'd like to throw mine out there.

1) Protection (hear me out). I travel a lot for business. My girlfriend is home alone with the dog some nights. Moreover, I live in a very nice old neighborhood but a portion of it is backed up against a "not so nice" part of town. My concern is that if something were to happen and someone would attempt to break in or to harm myself, her, my neighbors, etc., the police would simply not have enough time to be notified and be on scene before the worst could happen. Everyone in the world knows what the sound of a shotgun racking a shell sounds like. At least I've got some target load after that noise coming if the noise is not enough to convince Johnny Stealmyshit that coming to my door was not a good idea.

2) Excuse the paranoia but I'm going to own up to this. I don't trust everyone the government says I should. I don't believe everything is necessarily as it seems. I don't want to be caught completely out if shit hits the fan. I'm not completely convinced that this might not happen in my lifetime. It puts my mind at rest that if at some point I feel like the line must be drawn somewhere. (obligated to post this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aJCrMDl-H4) Call that blindness, call it paranoia, all I know is the more you watch the news around here and the more you pay attention to what happens that is out of your control, and the more you buy into the idea you "have control because of elections", the more having something to defend myself helps me sleep at night.

3) It's fun. I like shooting clays. I like shooting targets. I pay taxes, I've never shot anyone, I have a clean criminal record, and I don't understand why I should have to suffer the consequences of irresponsibility by others. To draw a poor analogy, why should I lose my right to drive because some other dumbass was not paying attention and ran someone over? I'm responsible. I'm all for an impartial test to prove that fact so I can buy guns (however I have extreme reservations on how that system would be implemented and who would run it). Yes this reasoning is selfish, but I feel my logic is sound.

The idea that we are drilled from the time we are very young in this country about how our country was formed and the ideals surrounding that does not get nearly the credence it deserves in this argument. Americans like guns because we were forged from them. We didn't win our empire at the tip of a spear or the edge of a sword in the 1100s. We have been taught from a very young age here that we won a fight against some bullies that wanted to tell us how to live. That's how we know the story. That's what we were taught was just and right from the time most of us were 5 years old. It's hard to pull that out of us methinks.

Anyway, keep at it boys, I'm genuinely enjoying the discussion.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:18 am

Just a couple in response, BSF ...

1. Protection is often a circular reference given that the guns serve as intended protection from guns (yet almost never get used in that manner).

2. Guns have changed like a thousand times more than women and black people since the founding father days and yet we found ways to alter our beliefs on the best treatment of the latter.

Tom 1860 · Post by **Tom 1860** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:21 am

BSF, I understand why people have guns in the US and definitely get the 1st two points... The third point, not so much. I think the majority of people who kill others while driving are not doing so deliberately (I mean you guys have guns for that!).

Most road accident deaths are caused by other factors (drugs, drink, not paying attention, lack of sleep etc...). It is not often that a person gets in a car and goes out on a maiming spree with the car as the weapon.

The fact is that there is no decent analogy for restricting gun use and a person's right to own and use a gun (or any weapon specifically made to kill).

A gun is used (by used, I mean taken out and pointed) for three reasons, to scare, to injure or to kill! I totally get the history of your country thing. I mean, us Brits could turn up any day with our Queen and start kicking your arses, you need to be prepared... That is why you have the most powerful military in the world right?

I just don't think people need to get Rambo'ed up and the media should not be feeding this fear.

If I had a mental breakdown and wanted to go on a killing spree in the UK, I better be Bruce fucking Lee, because I have not the first clue how to get hold of a gun in the UK.

Tom 1860 · Post by **Tom 1860** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:36 am

Oh yeah, with regard to how we are brought up and understanding that guns are part of our history etc... I think on memorial day weekend, of all weekends it might be a good idea to explain that whilst guns have helped your troops win great victories, there are always losses.

The British empire did its fair share of fighting/murdering/killing etc, but what I have learnt and been taught is that guns and fighting ultimately bring death.

We know two things from an early age in the Western world, we will die and we will pay tax. I think that if you own a gun you are more likely to be paying tax for less time... So there is that I suppose.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:38 am

BSF mentioned that he lives in a good neighbourhood backed-up against a not so great one. It this an exclusively US issue?
Korea, Germany and UK have been mentioned in this thread, is the distinction of neighborhoods as great?

I'm in Calgary which is a small city of 1.25 million. There are really no shaddy neighborhoods. There are new suburbs in all 4 quadrants of the city. Some of the older areas east of downtown are rundown but not dangerous.

When I was in Brooklyn the guy who rented out the room to me told me this was a safe area but don't go west of "this street". In Baltimore after meeting Bengal he insisted on driving me back to my motel cause it was too dangerous to walk the 10 blocks back.

Tom 1860 · Post by **Tom 1860** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:40 am

degenerasian wrote:BSF mentioned that he lives in a good neighbourhood backed-up against a not so great one. It this an exclusively US issue?
Korea, Germany and UK have been mentioned in this thread, is the distinction of neighborhoods as great?

I'm in Calgary which is a small city of 1.25 million. There are really no shaddy neighborhoods. There are new suburbs in all 4 quadrants of the city. Some of the older areas east of downtown are rundown but not dangerous.

When I was in Brooklyn the guy who rented out the room to me told me this was a safe aera but don't go west of "this street". In Baltimore after meeting Bengal he insisted on driving me back to my motel cause it was too fangerous to walk the 10 blocks back.

A lot of vampires in Baltimore, I thought people there only killed people with knives?

Tom 1860 · Post by **Tom 1860** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:44 am

I think there are different levels of rough. I work in the most deprived area of Bristol which is a major UK city. I could buy any drugs I want there if I chose to. I could pick a fight in any bar and could get myself in hospital for a long time, but I am pretty sure that I would have to try pretty bloody hard to get shot.

I honestly believe that in most places in the US, I could get myself shot pretty easily without ever having a weapon.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:59 am

Tom 1860 wrote:I honestly believe that in most places in the US, I could get myself shot pretty easily without ever having a weapon.

No. That's just...no. Not a true.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:09 am

Would you also yell "I'm starting to shoot this gun now!" and "hey, everyone, shoot me with your gun or I'll do likewise with this one here!"? If so, I think we're up to about 1% of the US. BY LAND AREA OF COURSE

Tom 1860 · Post by **Tom 1860** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:10 am

Maybe so, but when I to the States I am always told where it is safe to go by locals.

So they obviously believe the hype and the media do make things so very scary.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:12 am

Oh with a fake gun I could get myself shot in the Hamptons. That's completely different than being unarmed.

Tom 1860 · Post by **Tom 1860** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:14 am

Ryan wrote:Would you also yell "I'm starting to shoot this gun now!" and "hey, everyone, shoot me with your gun or I'll do likewise with this one here!"? If so, I think we're up to about 1% of the US. BY LAND AREA OF COURSE

All I am saying is that if you go looking for trouble you can find it easily wherever you are. The difference being that people are far more likely to have guns in the US. Only 3% on the UK land mass is populated, so 1% is of the US is quite a lot of people I would imagine.

Tom 1860 · Post by **Tom 1860** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:15 am

Jerloma wrote:Oh with a fake gun I could get myself shot in the Hamptons. That's completely different than being unarmed.

I deleted the fake gun post because whats the point in having a fake gun, I may as well have a real one right?

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:23 am

Tom, I thought your points were eloquent. I agree with you. I don't get the American love of guns, either.

Tom 1860 · Post by **Tom 1860** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:27 am

sancarlos wrote:Tom, I thought your points were eloquent. I agree with you. I don't get the American love of guns, either.

You understand that if I owned a gun with the last bullet on planet and could travel in time with Howard, I would still be going after Elway right?

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:30 am

Tom 1860 wrote:
sancarlos wrote:Tom, I thought your points were eloquent. I agree with you. I don't get the American love of guns, either.
You understand that if I owned a gun with the last bullet on planet and could travel in time with Howard, I would still be going after Elway right?

Not Howard? Color me surprised.

Tom 1860 · Post by **Tom 1860** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:32 am

The Sybian wrote:
Tom 1860 wrote:
sancarlos wrote:Tom, I thought your points were eloquent. I agree with you. I don't get the American love of guns, either.
You understand that if I owned a gun with the last bullet on planet and could travel in time with Howard, I would still be going after Elway right?
Not Howard? Color me surprised.

I think Howard would try and get something sorted regarding the Kennedys, but using a gun for that would seem wrong for some reason. Anyway, its my fucking gun and I can shoot who I want...

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:33 am

Tom 1860 wrote:Oh yeah, with regard to how we are brought up and understanding that guns are part of our history etc... I think on memorial day weekend, of all weekends it might be a good idea to explain that whilst guns have helped your troops win great victories, there are always losses.

The British empire did its fair share of fighting/murdering/killing etc, but what I have learnt and been taught is that guns and fighting ultimately bring death.

We know two things from an early age in the Western world, we will die and we will pay tax. I think that if you own a gun you are more likely to be paying tax for less time... So there is that I suppose.

I absolutely agree. I was simply making the point that when it is drilled into you from such a young age, I can understand where those (particularly in the South) can find logic in the argument. No, I don't believe the fact that I am a gun owner gives me any leg up in a state of complete anarchy, but it is of some comfort.

I stand by my 3rd point as well. I understand, and believe I noted, that the car analogy is poor. It is moreover the matter of being told I am potentially dangerous over and over again, when I have done nothing to indicate I am and should be punished for that. It invokes the idea of pre-crime and other things to me. If I slide on this and take a stance of "well my gun makes people nervous and by that logic I shouldn't be allowed to have one", it leads down a particularly slick slope in regards to my other rights. I am completely on the side of those who believe that the "founding fathers" (another reference I absolutely abhor) had no idea where firearms technology would end up, and that the second amendment was not installed in this country to ensure that the common public ever had access or rights to weaponry of advanced nature. No one in the late 1700's could have possibly dreamed of a man with an automatic rifle hanging out of a motorcar dealing out death and destruction at whim or a rifle that could kill someone from several miles away. Those who hang their hat on that argument are illogical at best.

Mr D, I completely agree with those points you made. In regards to number 1, I would note that it is not necessarily protecting myself from others with guns, moreover protection of property and those that dwell within. I don't care if they have a gun, knife, are drug addled, are unarmed, whatever. My property, my family. Come with the mindset to disrupt that, pay the consequences.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:36 am

Tom 1860 wrote:You understand that if I owned a gun with the last bullet on planet and could travel in time with Howard, I would still be going after Elway right?

Now, THAT comment brings me back to my understanding of the intelligence level of a man from Bristol, England, who, after surveying all the NFL franchises, chose to root for the flaming thumbtacks of Tennessee!

Tom 1860 · Post by **Tom 1860** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:40 am

sancarlos wrote:
Tom 1860 wrote:You understand that if I owned a gun with the last bullet on planet and could travel in time with Howard, I would still be going after Elway right?
Now, THAT comment brings me back to my understanding of the intelligence level of a man from Bristol, England, who, after surveying all the NFL franchises, chose to root for the flaming thumbtacks of Tennessee!

They were the Oilers in 1983 and they were bad... I have explained this before, I rolled dice to get my team and first of all got the Broncos. I took one look at the uniform, the helmet and the guy from Stanford and rolled the dice again. 31 years later, the Oilers/Titans have won fuck all, but I am going to stick it out.

I am from Wales (not fucking England) and we have a long history of winning fuck all, so I have got use to it...

Anyway, this was about crime and getting killed, lets talk about the Seahawks

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Tue May 27, 2014 1:12 pm

Tom, your perspective is certainly one I can see on a level playing field since I'm living in your part of the world at the moment. For as many questions as you have about America and guns, I have about Europe and alcohol (mostly) or other little quirks here and there. It's all relative to the, as I already stated, culture. We grow up in America with a Puritanical Idealism mixed with an underdog story of revenge and a large dosage of NIMBY - Not In My Back Yard. And when the #2 most important point in the most important document of our country's founding is guns, that totally sets us up from birth with a certain entitlement. Plus, as George Carlin once pointed out: we like war. And to think, we've continued the trend ever since this stand up.

Tom 1860 wrote:For example, the UK Olympic shooting team has to train abroad because our gun laws forbid them from doing so in the UK.

That's ridiculous.

Tom 1860 wrote:I don't understand the need for different bullets (even after the explanation that you are trying to stop the bullet from passing through the target and hitting something behind it).

Liability. It hits an innocent bystander, and you are getting sued. Everything you did to stop the perp means fuckall in a court of law.

Tom 1860 wrote:I don't understand the 'If a cop has one, I should have one' argument.

I trust the cops about as much as I trust politicians. My friend back in Tucson is a cop. She's ordered, along with the rest of the Tucson police force, to write a ticket per day. We have a police force to burden and disrupt. Also, unless the call to the cops is a certain threat level, they aren't coming to help you. Pretty much anything involving threats to kids. So...the cops aren't always there to stop someone from doing something to you.

Tom 1860 wrote:non self loading (I don't know the terms)

Semi automatic

Tom 1860 wrote:I don't understand the 'I need a gun at home because I might get robbed/attacked at home argument', if people were not allowed guns that they could easily conceal, this would not be as big an issue.

In many states you have a castle doctrine. It allows to to "protect your castle." Your stuff is your stuff and your home is sovereign territory where you live. Perceived threats are, to any rational person, coming after your shit with an intent to harm you. Thus, protection. Sure, it's rather circular when concealable weapons exist...but they exist. You can't wish them out of existence.

Tom 1860 wrote:Sorry if I have offended anyone...

Absolutely never. I like a non-American perspective. And the rest of your points deal with what we Americans always deal with. There's a contingent of people who are lowlife scum and stoop to criminal levels to get what they want. (They run Wall Street and the government!) But that's what I kind of expect in a land with our entitlement, the 3rd largest population on the planet, and the highest GDP. It starts there and permeates everything.

Another point that was brought up in here was how a cultural change or shift in opinion could change a lot of things -- like what happened in Australia. Gun buybacks. Legislation. Control...etc. I've posted this before, but Hugh Jackman had a great perspective on it last year. It's easier to change the perception of 18 million people vs 300 million. 4 states in America have larger populations than Australia.

I am also digging the media perspective on this as well. Their coverage is relentless, non-stop, and all fucking day. Roger Ebert was interviewed about Columbine and nailed it. Naturally, his perspective was swept under the rug.

Finally, this clip from Charlie Brooker enhances Eberts point in this clip from YouTube:

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Tue May 27, 2014 1:19 pm

Tom 1860 wrote:I mean, us Brits could turn up any day with our Queen and start kicking your arses, you need to be prepared... That is why you have the most powerful military in the world right?

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Tue May 27, 2014 6:20 pm

Onion cuts to the bone.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue May 27, 2014 7:50 pm

P.D.X. wrote:Onion cuts to the bone.

It's funny cuz' it's true.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm

degenerasian wrote:BSF mentioned that he lives in a good neighbourhood backed-up against a not so great one. It this an exclusively US issue?
Korea, Germany and UK have been mentioned in this thread, is the distinction of neighborhoods as great?

I'm in Calgary which is a small city of 1.25 million. There are really no shaddy neighborhoods. There are new suburbs in all 4 quadrants of the city. Some of the older areas east of downtown are rundown but not dangerous.

When I was in Brooklyn the guy who rented out the room to me told me this was a safe area but don't go west of "this street". In Baltimore after meeting Bengal he insisted on driving me back to my motel cause it was too dangerous to walk the 10 blocks back.

Florida is a wonderland of mansions looking over hoods.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:03 pm

Of all the gun discussions we've had, this is by far the most civil and productive. I totally get where BSF is coming from, but I personally feel less safe having a gun in my house with kids. I know that I would be responsible and keep the gun out of reach, locked and hidden, but the nagging worry of an accident would far outweigh my worry over a home invasion. I just feel the likelihood of a home invasion is minuscule, then the odds that I would successfully ward of the invader with my gun, without any negative consequences are pretty unlikely. If I did get my gun out in the middle of the night, I think the odds of the outcome being worse are about even. I could hear a kid and because I have a gun, think I need it. I could shoot and miss, hitting a kid, or worse, a water pipe.

BSF, as for your second reason, I'm not going to question your cynicism. I doubt our society will completely collapse, but it isn't outside the realm of possibility 20 years down the road. If the worst happens, is your gun really going to do anything to protect you? I know you aren't making this argument, but I hate hearing yahoos arguing that they need guns for the day they need to take up arms against the government. Have they seen the weapons and capabilities of the US Military? Are a fucking band of hillbillies with shotguns or maybe even AR-15s going to be much of a match for an Army battalion?

Clay shooting does seem like a lot of fun, and that is the reason for gun ownership I can get behind the most. When I turned 18, my father told me to get a license for a handgun. Sometimes I regret not doing it, as I think shooting targets would be a fun and stress reducing hobby. Then I realize what would have happened if I had a gun in the house during my college or even law school years. Hell, even the first 3 or 4 years out of law school. Wouldn't have been pretty.

Tom, don't ever worry about insulting us. I think anyone with sensitivity has already left. I can't imagine what our gun culture looks like to someone on the outside. It must seem like pure madness. And maybe it is. Then you look at Canada, with significantly more guns per capita, and drastically less accidental shootings, murder and serial killings. I do think there is a cultural difference in that we are taught to value individuality, question authority, and no back down. I think it does stem from the difference between the US fighting the Revolutionary War, and Canada still having the Queen on their money. The 2nd Amendment being completely misunderstood and warped beyond comprehension doesn't help, either.

*My wife just popped in to tell me that there were 2 burglaries in the last 2 days less than half a mile away from my house. Let's get the guns!

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:05 pm

No shit?

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:19 pm

The Sybian wrote: Then you look at Canada, with significantly more guns per capita, and drastically less accidental shootings, murder and serial killings. I do think there is a cultural difference in that we are taught to value individuality, question authority, and no back down.

The second part of this statement is true, but the first part rang false when I heard Michael Moore say it in Bowling For Columbine. And while I kind of like Moore, his propensity to make shit up is a bit irritating.

From a survey as quoted by Global News (a major Canadian broadcast network) :

That’s 89 firearms per 100 residents, making the U.S. the No. 1 country for gun ownership.

Canada, on the other hand, ranks 13th on the study’s list, with 9.95 million firearms — or 31 per 100 residents.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1354803/fact- ... an-the-us/

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:00 pm

Maybe if you treat 1 person having 1 gun and 1 person have 1000 guns as the same person who has gun(s) then Canada has more people with at least 1 gun per capita?

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Wed May 28, 2014 9:00 am

degenerasian wrote:Maybe if you treat 1 person having 1 gun and 1 person have 1000 guns as the same person who has gun(s) then Canada has more people with at least 1 gun per capita?

That would actually make sense, and may have been the fact I've seen. I read an article, and now that I think about it, it said that a higher percentage of Canadians have guns than Americans. The overwhelming majority of Canadian guns were hunting rifles. I would be very surprised if there .89 guns/American, but guys like TT throw off the curve.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Wed May 28, 2014 9:01 am

mister d wrote:No shit?

2 houses on Emerson, which is a woodsy connecting road.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed May 28, 2014 9:06 am

"One home was entered through an open garage door and then through the interior garage door. The second home was entered through an unlocked door."

Well there you go.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Wed May 28, 2014 9:42 am

If you're like me, you are thinking "what does Joe the Plumber have to say about the latest mass shooting." Good Old Joe certainly has a way with words. "Your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights." Now there is a persuasive argument. I also like the argument that the ranting parent is too blame for his son's death by asking for stricter gun laws.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Wed May 28, 2014 9:51 am

It's an unfortunate side effect of freedom.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed May 28, 2014 9:51 am

Someone should shoot him right in the dick. I'll root for guns in that case.