The Swamp

Naked Capitalism with a pretty good take on how United fucked up, and how the media failed to do its job in reporting what happened.

sancarlos wrote:They are supposed to be building high-speed rail between Los Angeles and San Francisco but if it ever gets done I'll be surprised.

Same between Houston and Dallas.

EnochRoot wrote:Naked Capitalism with a pretty good take on how United fucked up, and how the media failed to do its job in reporting what happened.

I don't know. The media reporting it wrong made it more outrageous and got more eyeballs in today's instant social media world.
This made United backtrack and apologize.

Just going to wholeheartedly disagree with you. Not only did United do something really shitty, but they broke their own agreement (thereby breaking FAA regulations/law.)

Most of the reporting talked about how United had "the right" to take him off the plane because it was oversold. That's patently untrue. The flight was not overbooked, it was fully booked. Huge difference. They illegally took a guy off the plane to ship 4 of their own employees.

United is going to be paying that man a shitload of money.

The point of that article is that a lot of the coverage is giving United a little bit of cover, when they in fact deserve ZERO defense or cover. They broke the law when they forced him off the plane. It wasn't a case of overzealously following existing policy, which is how it has been portrayed.

I also feel like a schmuck for going after the passenger on any level, knowing what I know now.

A couple of important points, if you don't take time to read that article:

* As I said above, but it needs to be shouted out load: the flight was not overbooked, as was widely reported. That is a HUGE deal in terms of policy and regulations, particularly after you've already seated the passengers. Rules on removing people already on the plane are really specific, and obviously they don't include "because we need to get employees somewhere."

* The smear on the doctor appears to be completely false. Dude had nothing to do with WSOP or any other shady business.

* The cop who did the dragging had experience at Guantanamo and was with CPD for a time with a pretty shitty background that include allegations of brutality. I haven't seen that stuff reported anywhere.

* There is now video of the doctor just prior to being dragged off, and he's not yelling/screaming or being belligerent. Stubborn and annoyed? Yeah. But the notion that he was shouting and causing a scene is pure fabrication.

Fuck United, man.

Yay I get to fly UA on Monday.

P.D.X. wrote:Yay I get to fly UA on Monday.

Exclusive footage of P.D.X. this weekend:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj0jzepk0WA

P.D.X. wrote:Yay I get to fly UA on Monday.

Say something snarky to the United gate agent. Let us know how the person responds.

I hope that's a joke.

brian wrote:I hope that's a joke.

There's no fucking way I would say anything remotely out of line to those folks right now (or actually ask somebody else to do so.) Those gate agents have to be really on edge, almost suffering from PTSD right about now, and I wouldn't even engage them at all unless necessary.

sancarlos wrote:

brian wrote:I hope that's a joke.

There's no fucking way I would say anything remotely out of line to those folks right now (or actually ask somebody else to do so.) Those gate agents have to be really on edge, almost suffering from PTSD right about now, and I wouldn't even engage them at all unless necessary.

OK, we're in agreement. Giving shit to a United gate agent for what happened would be like berating a forest ranger because Trump sucks.

Yeah I don't want to appear belligerent.

I was under the assumption that you're able to be moved from your seat up until the door closes and the crew starts performing their checks. So, with that being said, I take back my comments.

It's never been actively stated anywhere that I've seen, and having been bumped previously (but at the desk prior to boarding), if there are consumer protections for being in your seat and boarded, I'm glad that that is now well known. It also makes me think of the other three passengers that were forced off and had to be "re-accomodated." They have a claim to any lawsuit money as well.

Hopefully this also spurs proactivity from other airlines in giving travelers added protection and better compensation. I'm not holding my breath because of the overwhelming demand of travel, but still.

Nonlinear FC wrote:Just going to wholeheartedly disagree with you. Not only did United do something really shitty, but they broke their own agreement (thereby breaking FAA regulations/law.)

Most of the reporting talked about how United had "the right" to take him off the plane because it was oversold. That's patently untrue. The flight was not overbooked, it was fully booked. Huge difference. They illegally took a guy off the plane to ship 4 of their own employees.

United is going to be paying that man a shitload of money.

The point of that article is that a lot of the coverage is giving United a little bit of cover, when they in fact deserve ZERO defense or cover. They broke the law when they forced him off the plane. It wasn't a case of overzealously following existing policy, which is how it has been portrayed.

I forgot to quote a point she made that I found at the time to be rather telling:

Absence of reporting on airline regulations leads to widespread skewing of story in United’s favor. Even though most readers may think United is getting beaten up aplenty in the press, in fact it is getting a virtual free pass as far as its rights to remove a paying passenger with a confirmed seat who has been seated. This seems to reflect the deep internalization in America of deference to authority in the post 9/11 world, as well as reporters who appear to be insufficiently inquisitive. And there also seems to be a widespread perception that because it’s United’s plane, it can do what it sees fit. In fact, airlines are regulated and United is also bound to honor its own agreements.

EnochRoot wrote:

Absence of reporting on airline regulations leads to widespread skewing of story in United’s favor. Even though most readers may think United is getting beaten up aplenty in the press, in fact it is getting a virtual free pass as far as its rights to remove a paying passenger with a confirmed seat who has been seated. This seems to reflect the deep internalization in America of deference to authority in the post 9/11 world, as well as reporters who appear to be insufficiently inquisitive. And there also seems to be a widespread perception that because it’s United’s plane, it can do what it sees fit. In fact, airlines are regulated and United is also bound to honor its own agreements.

I saw a clip of a FoxNews bimbo arguing that overregulation of the airline industry is to blame, making United the victim. Even worse, O'Reilly showed the clip of the passenger being dragged out, and was cracking up saying, "I know I shouldn't laugh at this..." Fucking assholes.

Nonlinear FC wrote:Just going to wholeheartedly disagree with you. Not only did United do something really shitty, but they broke their own agreement (thereby breaking FAA regulations/law.)

Most of the reporting talked about how United had "the right" to take him off the plane because it was oversold. That's patently untrue. The flight was not overbooked, it was fully booked. Huge difference. They illegally took a guy off the plane to ship 4 of their own employees.

United is going to be paying that man a shitload of money.

The point of that article is that a lot of the coverage is giving United a little bit of cover, when they in fact deserve ZERO defense or cover. They broke the law when they forced him off the plane. It wasn't a case of overzealously following existing policy, which is how it has been portrayed.

I think the media making outrageous headlines and getting it wrong made people who really knew the rules outraged and speak up. On social media, when people see something incorrect, they will race to correct it. Reddit has become the center of investigative journalism (amazingly) where lawyers! come and post what the real law is. I've learned a lot going through those posts and feel like a schmuck as well.

The free-for-all became free for all!

Sorry, but I found the first line of the NY Post story too good to not use.

I had to call bullshit on a sweet person on Fb who reposted that "letter from the wife of an airline pilot."

What a bunch of bullshit that letter is... And especially knowing what we know now.

"Make it go away"

"Give back the money for the fares on a small commuter jet? One of our 4,523 flights that left that day? Alright!"

"Wow. See how that company works? Really made it right for the consumer!"

Nonlinear FC wrote:I had to call bullshit on a sweet person on Fb who reposted that "letter from the wife of an airline pilot."

What a bunch of bullshit that letter is... And especially knowing what we know now.

I just did that, too. A friend's post was just below your link to the Naked Capitalism article.

Nonlinear FC wrote:
* The smear on the doctor appears to be completely false. Dude had nothing to do with WSOP or any other shady business.

Without going into the right/wrong of publishing his background, the smear of the "smear" is what's false. The story published by the LCJ is accurate.

Brontoburglar wrote:

Nonlinear FC wrote:
* The smear on the doctor appears to be completely false. Dude had nothing to do with WSOP or any other shady business.

Without going into the right/wrong of publishing his background, the smear of the "smear" is what's false. The story published by the LCJ is accurate.

United is free to bring that up in court.

EnochRoot wrote:

Brontoburglar wrote:

Nonlinear FC wrote:
* The smear on the doctor appears to be completely false. Dude had nothing to do with WSOP or any other shady business.

Without going into the right/wrong of publishing his background, the smear of the "smear" is what's false. The story published by the LCJ is accurate.

United is free to bring that up in court.

I fail to see how his previous criminal record (or lack thereof) would be germane in a civil
court preceding.

brian wrote:

EnochRoot wrote:

Brontoburglar wrote:

Nonlinear FC wrote:
* The smear on the doctor appears to be completely false. Dude had nothing to do with WSOP or any other shady business.

Without going into the right/wrong of publishing his background, the smear of the "smear" is what's false. The story published by the LCJ is accurate.

United is free to bring that up in court.

I fail to see how his previous criminal record (or lack thereof) would be germane in a civil
court preceding.

These things vary by state but you can sometimes use past convictions to argue that a witness has credibility issues. Particularly if the conviction is for something fraud-related. But his convictions are over 10 years old and I believe some stars wouldn't allow anything that old.

Yes. In Florida, convictions, (not arrests), for felonies, or crimes of dishonesty, can be introduced at trial.

And, again, without going into the right/wrong of what the LCJ did, United lawyer's could have gone and researched that themselves with or without it being reported publicly.

And that is, by far, the least of the transgressions in terms of how this story was distorted.

Brontoburglar wrote:And, again, without going into the right/wrong of what the LCJ did, United lawyer's could have gone and researched that themselves with or without it being reported publicly.

fuck I made a grammar error I hate myself

So it turns out my dad knows a couple guys who know Dr. Dao

They say he's a good doctor but very arrogant and rough around the edges.

From what they know, the problem stemmed when Dr. Dao already accepted the $800 and was about to get off the plane. Until he discovered that the next flight wasn't until tomorrow afternoon. So by that point all suggestions of how United should have offered more or had an in plane auction are out the window because a person had already been chosen and they had already accepted along with the other 3 people. It would be unfair to suddenly chose someone else.

Then Dr. Dao called his lawyers while security was asking him to leave. That probably irritated everyone since the flight was already delayed over 30 minutes. Of course it doesn't justify security beating him up.

In the aftermath now, Dr. Dao is really milking it. Saying things like, "This is the worst experience of my life, it's even worse than when I fled Vietnam by boat". This group of friends is advising him to settle if United offers 1 million. But there are lawyers who want this case due to it's publicity and encouraging Dr. Dao to sue for 50 million or even 100 million. It seems he wants to do that. Stay tuned.

Yeah fuck that.

Oh, he's so suing. This is a top trending video on YouTube right now:

https://youtu.be/vLphv5G1HPE

So Todd Heap ran over his 3 year old daughter with his pickup truck. It killed her.


Some unfortunate choice of words in the statement provided by police:

Heap was not impaired and there was no suspicious circumstances surrounding the incident, police told ABC 15 Arizona.

How about the suspicious circumstance of the incident itself?

That scenario terrifies me.

I'd imagine it would for people who have kids. I think it was Stephen King who wrote about the nightmare of the blindspot and the rearview mirror, but Heap was driving the car fucking forward.

degenerasian wrote:So it turns out my dad knows a couple guys who know Dr. Dao

They say he's a good doctor but very arrogant and rough around the edges.

From what they know, the problem stemmed when Dr. Dao already accepted the $800 and was about to get off the plane. Until he discovered that the next flight wasn't until tomorrow afternoon. So by that point all suggestions of how United should have offered more or had an in plane auction are out the window because a person had already been chosen and they had already accepted along with the other 3 people. It would be unfair to suddenly chose someone else.

Then Dr. Dao called his lawyers while security was asking him to leave. That probably irritated everyone since the flight was already delayed over 30 minutes. Of course it doesn't justify security beating him up.

In the aftermath now, Dr. Dao is really milking it. Saying things like, "This is the worst experience of my life, it's even worse than when I fled Vietnam by boat". This group of friends is advising him to settle if United offers 1 million. But there are lawyers who want this case due to it's publicity and encouraging Dr. Dao to sue for 50 million or even 100 million. It seems he wants to do that. Stay tuned.

Hard to say he is a good doctor what with his license being suspended for a time.

EnochRoot wrote:I'd imagine it would for people who have kids. I think it was Stephen King who wrote about the nightmare of the blindspot and the rearview mirror, but Heap was driving the car fucking forward.

So wait....you're saying they should be investigating for murder? How big do you think three year olds are? Even small trucks they'd likely be invisible if close enough.

I can't tell you how many tims a kid has darted in front of my direction of travel in a driveway. This is heartbreaking.

A_B wrote:

EnochRoot wrote:I'd imagine it would for people who have kids. I think it was Stephen King who wrote about the nightmare of the blindspot and the rearview mirror, but Heap was driving the car fucking forward.

So wait....you're saying they should be investigating for murder? How big do you think three year olds are? Even small trucks they'd likely be invisible if close enough.

I can't tell you how many tims a kid has darted in front of my direction of travel in a driveway. This is heartbreaking.

I'm not saying that because he was driving forward he's more culpable in the eyes of the law. I'm saying he's even more culpable to himself.

I imagine he's doing about as poorly as someone can be doing right now.

mister d wrote:I imagine he's doing about as poorly as someone can be doing right now.

No doubt. I was alluding to the fact he could've tucked a chunk of his grief into the blindspot of driving backwards.

That's relationship ending tragedy.

EnochRoot wrote:

A_B wrote:

EnochRoot wrote:I'd imagine it would for people who have kids. I think it was Stephen King who wrote about the nightmare of the blindspot and the rearview mirror, but Heap was driving the car fucking forward.

So wait....you're saying they should be investigating for murder? How big do you think three year olds are? Even small trucks they'd likely be invisible if close enough.

I can't tell you how many tims a kid has darted in front of my direction of travel in a driveway. This is heartbreaking.

I'm not saying that because he was driving forward he's more culpable in the eyes of the law. I'm saying he's even more culpable to himself.

Ah. I see that. Your comment about suspicious upthread confused me.