Ban The Charge

Okay . . . let's try this again.

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Shirley
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Ban The Charge

Post by Shirley »

Mark Titus is on board the bandwagon I started about ten years ago.
Listen here, basketball fans, and listen good: We have to get rid of charges. I don’t know how we’re going to do it, but I know that it’s going to get done. It has to. I refuse to believe that it’s the current year and the greatest sport in the world — a sport that exemplifies athleticism, strength, agility, and grace — is still rewarding defenders for grabbing their balls and falling over as they undercut guys who are trying to dunk.
https://theringer.com/ban-charges-from- ... .iftz3q8mr


Sure, he never saw my article, and it's not even out on the Interwebs anymore, but I have to think its impact was profound (and very, very subtle). It's almost enough to make me want to revive the site - the old stuff. I'm not writing anything new.
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by A_B »

I dunno, looks like he was into Dave Sez

"I wrote about this more than a year and a half ago for a website you may have heard of, and even then I wasn’t the first to have the thought."
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Shirley »

A_B wrote:I dunno, looks like he was into Dave Sez

"I wrote about this more than a year and a half ago for a website you may have heard of, and even then I wasn’t the first to have the thought."
Yeah, I'm sure he meant me.
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L-Jam3
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by L-Jam3 »

I think I'd be more angry if I saw my kids flopping charges than if I caught them smoking weed.


ETA: Assuming they're teens when I catch them.
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Shirley
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Shirley »

This is your brain.


And this is your brain when trying to take a charge.
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degenerasian
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by degenerasian »

This article is backward to me. It's about positioning. who got there first. When the defender is in position and the offender bumps him that's the foul. It doesn't matter if that defender flies 100 feet, that's irrelevant.

Maybe make the semi circle restriction zone bigger
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Ryan »

Running and jumping toward the hoop in a normal way in order to score points shouldn't count as "bumping". He's not just calling out flopping, he's calling out being rewarding for essentially getting in the way
he’s a fixbking cyborg or some shit. The

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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by degenerasian »

Ryan wrote:Running and jumping toward the hoop in a normal way in order to score points shouldn't count as "bumping". He's not just calling out flopping, he's calling out being rewarding for essentially getting in the way
that would be like saying the offense can't set picks. The center. The CENTER comes out to the 3 point line to get in someone's way.
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by A_B »

degenerasian wrote:
Ryan wrote:Running and jumping toward the hoop in a normal way in order to score points shouldn't count as "bumping". He's not just calling out flopping, he's calling out being rewarding for essentially getting in the way
that would be like saying the offense can't set picks. The center. The CENTER comes out to the 3 point line to get in someone's way.
Don't run under a guy already on the move to the basket.
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Tom 1860 »

Just looking at this from another another... I have seen footage of Tim Donaghy talking about being told by senior officials to only make certain calls on the court and I believe this was at the heart of him being able to call games.

Surely until the game is reffed effectively, any kind of change is irrelevant?
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Shirley »

degenerasian wrote:This article is backward to me. It's about positioning. who got there first. When the defender is in position and the offender bumps him that's the foul. It doesn't matter if that defender flies 100 feet, that's irrelevant.

Maybe make the semi circle restriction zone bigger
Yes, we all know the rule - if the defender gets there first, it's a foul. That's not the debate. The debate is about whether it SHOULD be a foul. In this case, the only reason defenders do this is so they can take contact, fall down, and draw a foul. That's not what the point of the game is supposed to be. Most people would much rather see players actually try to defend the ball, not just run to a spot and fall down. What's happened is that the game has become a comedy of giant, athletic players intentionally getting in each other's way and falling down.

And as Tom pointed out, the charge/block call is generally considered the hardest call for a ref to make.
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Ryan »

degenerasian wrote:
Ryan wrote:Running and jumping toward the hoop in a normal way in order to score points shouldn't count as "bumping". He's not just calling out flopping, he's calling out being rewarding for essentially getting in the way
that would be like saying the offense can't set picks. The center. The CENTER comes out to the 3 point line to get in someone's way.
It's like saying the defender gets called for a foul if he doesn't see a pick and runs right into the guy
he’s a fixbking cyborg or some shit. The

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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by degenerasian »

Ryan wrote:
degenerasian wrote:
Ryan wrote:Running and jumping toward the hoop in a normal way in order to score points shouldn't count as "bumping". He's not just calling out flopping, he's calling out being rewarding for essentially getting in the way
that would be like saying the offense can't set picks. The center. The CENTER comes out to the 3 point line to get in someone's way.
It's like saying the defender gets called for a foul if he doesn't see a pick and runs right into the guy
Isnt that true?
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by A_B »

no. If a defender doesn't see the pick and runs into it it isn't a foul at all.
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by HaulCitgo »

They call it way better in NBA. You really got to run somebody over. I like it the way they call it and your benefit of getting there first is the contact without a foul call. I could go for all no calls but then guys would just explode into the lane. Would bring back the big man on d. I say no charge and no 3 secs. Not like you can really pack the paint the way lots of teams spread and shoot it. The illegal defense was way worse but killing it did make the game better.
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by HaulCitgo »

And Danny green was definitely 4th option on that team.
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by A_B »

HaulCitgo wrote:They call it way better in NBA. You really got to run somebody over. I like it the way they call it and your benefit of getting there first is the contact without a foul call. I could go for all no calls but then guys would just explode into the lane. Would bring back the big man on d. I say no charge and no 3 secs. Not like you can really pack the paint the way lots of teams spread and shoot it. The illegal defense was way worse but killing it did make the game better.
Did you read the Titus article? Cause he seems to think they dont' call it the way you say and the big man is neutered. Wants to see big guys be relevant again, which isn't really the case now.

I kinda agree with him. If you can't shoot a three you are marginalized. I like having room for the big guys to make good plays at the rim. Not just barreling over people or flailing madly, but making good plays, with vertical arms and good positioning.
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Giff »

They're focusing on the wrong thing. They need to severely punish floppers. Shit like Andre Iguodala pulled last night should be suspension-worthy.
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Gunpowder »

Punishing intent can become dicey, though. Especially if you think you have a solution that ignores it.
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Steve of phpBB »

I will admit I'm not a sophisticated basketball fan, but without a charge foul, what would stop an offensive player from just dribbling straight in to the basket? How could a defender stop someone doing that if the defender isn't allowed to stand in the way?

Or am I missing something from the proposal?
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Re: Ban The Charge

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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Gunpowder »

Steve of phpBB wrote:I will admit I'm not a sophisticated basketball fan, but without a charge foul, what would stop an offensive player from just dribbling straight in to the basket? How could a defender stop someone doing that if the defender isn't allowed to stand in the way?

Or am I missing something from the proposal?


The defender is allowed to stand in the way, you just don't get a charge called. If someone runs into you with an elbow out or something, assuming it's still an offensive foul. If a guy just runs into you standing straight up and falls on the ground, he's a moron.
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Ryan »

Steve of phpBB wrote:How could a defender stop someone doing that if the defender isn't allowed to stand in the way?
Standing in the way would still be allowed. (Under my plan. I already forgot what the article said.)
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Shirley »

Ryan wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote:How could a defender stop someone doing that if the defender isn't allowed to stand in the way?
Standing in the way would still be allowed. (Under my plan. I already forgot what the article said.)
Exactly. Defense is still allowed. Encouraged, even!
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Steve of phpBB »

Shirley wrote:
Ryan wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote:How could a defender stop someone doing that if the defender isn't allowed to stand in the way?
Standing in the way would still be allowed. (Under my plan. I already forgot what the article said.)
Exactly. Defense is still allowed. Encouraged, even!
So to understand it, if an offensive player runs into a defender, it's just a no-call?
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Shirley »

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Shirley wrote:
Ryan wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote:How could a defender stop someone doing that if the defender isn't allowed to stand in the way?
Standing in the way would still be allowed. (Under my plan. I already forgot what the article said.)
Exactly. Defense is still allowed. Encouraged, even!
So to understand it, if an offensive player runs into a defender, it's just a no-call?
Exactly, unless he's throwing an elbow, or out of control or something. If the defender initiates the contact, that can be a foul on the defender.

I think for this to work correctly, refs will need to honor the existing rule that grants defenders the right to leave the floor to challenge shots. It's OK to draw contact when you're in the air, as long as you jumped straight up and not into the offensive player.
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Ryan »

It's simple in theory. Any call that would be a charge only because the defensive player is there to take a charge? No longer a charge.
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Steve of phpBB »

Shirley wrote:Exactly, unless he's throwing an elbow, or out of control or something. If the defender initiates the contact, that can be a foul on the defender.

I think for this to work correctly, refs will need to honor the existing rule that grants defenders the right to leave the floor to challenge shots. It's OK to draw contact when you're in the air, as long as you jumped straight up and not into the offensive player.
I think there is also a problem with figuring out what "out of control" means. Because I can see the situation where the guy with the ball just runs straight at the guy, fast. But he's under control. The defender has to stand there, without moving (if he's not standing still then it's a foul on him). It basically becomes a game of chicken.

My take has always been that the foul rules already unfairly benefit the offensive player. So I can't imagine I would like such a rule change.

I'm curious - what is driving this? Is it annoyance with flopping? Has there been an increase in charging calls over the past few years? Has it become more difficult to get to the basket? (Is there any way to tell, statistically, whether it has become harder to get to the basket?)
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Re: Ban The Charge

Post by Shirley »

Steve of phpBB wrote:I'm curious - what is driving this? Is it annoyance with flopping? Has there been an increase in charging calls over the past few years? Has it become more difficult to get to the basket? (Is there any way to tell, statistically, whether it has become harder to get to the basket?)
Well, by now it's more than a few years. It's been in the game for a long time. I think more and more teams/defenders are adept at this than they used to be - a secondary defender slides over stands still, makes no other attempt at defending, and falls down at the slightest contact (or even near contact). It clutters the lane, creates dangerous undercutting scenarios, and puts too much pressure on refs to make incredibly difficult calls with very unequal outcomes (a charge is more punitive than a block, because it's both a foul and a turnover, usually in a situation where the offense has otherwise earned an advantage).

Basically, it's a strategy that's not so much related to the essense of the game, but in how the rules are currently written and enforced. I find it somewhat similar to the trend of intentionally fouling bad free throw shooters away from the ball. Yes, it's in the rules, and yes "he should just hit his free throws," but it takes away from the flow and beauty of the game.

Think about it another way. When you play pickup basketball, are charges part of the game? No. But yet somehow games are played all over the world at all different skill levels that are fun and competitive. The rule is unnecessary.
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