NCAA College Hoops 2016/2017

Post by **Shirley** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:49 pm

The predictable national media response to NC State is in full swing. Jay Bilas went after them on Twitter. And here's Gary Parrish at CBS - http://www.cbssports.com/college-basket ... -that-job/

They point out the fact that Gottfried has made 4 tournaments in his 5 seasons, making the Sweet 16 twice. That is undeniably good.

What neither mentioned is that State finished with a losing record last year despite having Cat Barber, who scored over 23 ppg and made First Team All-ACC. This year has been even worse. The team has completely imploded. They've lost 6 straight since upsetting Duke. They lost by 51 at UNC, the second largest margin in rivalry history. They lost by 30 to Wake, the largest margin in that rivalry's history. They also lost to Wake at home, ending Wake's 25-game road ACC losing streak. They've lost the last 3 game by 20+ points - and they've lost 7 games by 18+.

Keep in mind that State has the projected #3 draft pick in the NBA. They have other talented guards and big men as well. I'd say they probably the fourth most talent in the league, behind Duke, UNC, and FSU.

Most damning of all - to observers, it's pretty clear that this team has quit on him. They don't play hard. Opposing players have said as much in direct quotes after games.

Do you give a guy like that another chance? It's one thing to have bad years, but back-to-back disasters? With talented teams?

It had to be done.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:51 pm

This has been, by far, my least favorite college basketball season ever. I wish they would cancel it immediately.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:09 pm

Shirley wrote:The predictable national media response to NC State is in full swing. Jay Bilas went after them on Twitter. And here's Gary Parrish at CBS - http://www.cbssports.com/college-basket ... -that-job/

They point out the fact that Gottfried has made 4 tournaments in his 5 seasons, making the Sweet 16 twice. That is undeniably good.

What neither mentioned is that State finished with a losing record last year despite having Cat Barber, who scored over 23 ppg and made First Team All-ACC. This year has been even worse. The team has completely imploded. They've lost 6 straight since upsetting Duke. They lost by 51 at UNC, the second largest margin in rivalry history. They lost by 30 to Wake, the largest margin in that rivalry's history. They also lost to Wake at home, ending Wake's 25-game road ACC losing streak. They've lost the last 3 game by 20+ points - and they've lost 7 games by 18+.

Keep in mind that State has the projected #3 draft pick in the NBA. They have other talented guards and big men as well. I'd say they probably the fourth most talent in the league, behind Duke, UNC, and FSU.

Most damning of all - to observers, it's pretty clear that this team has quit on him. They don't play hard. Opposing players have said as much in direct quotes after games.

Do you give a guy like that another chance? It's one thing to have bad years, but back-to-back disasters? With talented teams?

It had to be done.

One of their best players decided to stop running down the floor....to play offense!

Post by **Shirley** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:42 pm

I got curious, so I looked it up:

I wish UVA had that level of recruiting.

duff · Post by **duff** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:47 pm

So the players quit because the payments stopped coming in? How else do you explain quitting?

Post by **Shirley** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:32 pm

duff wrote:So the players quit because the payments stopped coming in? How else do you explain quitting?

They're quitting because they keep getting their asses kicked. It's possible there's some off-court stuff too, but I don't know about that. Nobody at this level - especially dudes who were big recruits out of high school - likes getting trounced by 20+ points.

wlu_lax6 · Post by **wlu_lax6** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:34 pm

This is a fun story
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc- ... fea6c5cbb8

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:25 pm

Shirley wrote:The predictable national media response to NC State is in full swing. Jay Bilas went after them on Twitter. And here's Gary Parrish at CBS - http://www.cbssports.com/college-basket ... -that-job/

They point out the fact that Gottfried has made 4 tournaments in his 5 seasons, making the Sweet 16 twice. That is undeniably good.

Parrish with the "four tournament bids in six years" is a nice way of avoid saying how the program has clearly backslid the last two seasons. And to make the NCAA from the ACC, all you pretty much have to be a .500 team in conference (and they're 8-24 the last two seasons in conference).

Regarding the potential for off-court stuff, I know less than zero, but wonder if the last two years have had issues tied to other players being jealous of Cat Barber, then Dennis Smith, Jr. Both point guards had/have carte blanche on offense and Smith is pretty poor defensively. Just wonder about the simple "why does he get to do whatever we want, but we have to...." potential thought process.

I have never thought Gottfried was a good coach. Some recent evidence of this was continuing to have his guards go under screens against Syracuse when John Gillon, a 6'0" point guard, hit nine threes in the game. Mind-boggling to never change that strategy.

Post by **Shirley** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:51 pm

DSafetyGuy wrote:
Shirley wrote:The predictable national media response to NC State is in full swing. Jay Bilas went after them on Twitter. And here's Gary Parrish at CBS - http://www.cbssports.com/college-basket ... -that-job/

They point out the fact that Gottfried has made 4 tournaments in his 5 seasons, making the Sweet 16 twice. That is undeniably good.
Parrish with the "four tournament bids in six years" is a nice way of avoid saying how the program has clearly backslid the last two seasons. And to make the NCAA from the ACC, all you pretty much have to be a .500 team in conference (and they're 8-24 the last two seasons in conference).

Regarding the potential for off-court stuff, I know less than zero, but wonder if the last two years have had issues tied to other players being jealous of Cat Barber, then Dennis Smith, Jr. Both point guards had/have carte blanche on offense and Smith is pretty poor defensively. Just wonder about the simple "why does he get to do whatever we want, but we have to...." potential thought process.

I have never thought Gottfried was a good coach. Some recent evidence of this was continuing to have his guards go under screens against Syracuse when John Gillon, a 6'0" point guard, hit nine threes in the game. Mind-boggling to never change that strategy.

I actually defended Gottfried in his first few years. Noting his tournament resume ignores the fact that of those teams struggled off and on throughout the season, but won enough late to get a bid. Then, they played well in the tournament. I figured it was a sign of good coaching to improve late in the year. But his defensive weakness has just gotten too prominent to ignore.

Post by **Shirley** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:31 pm

A little Podcast Thread crosspost here. Bill Burr on visiting Cameron for the Duke-UNC game last week:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qILLrC9 ... e=youtu.be

FWIW, I lucked into tickets to that game about 15 years ago. I think I sat in nearly the same spot as Bill, maybe on the opposite side. He does a great job of explaining just how nuts that atmosphere is. I've never experienced anything like it.

Post by **Shirley** » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Virginia has completely fucking collapsed and I'm dumbfounded. The defense is still good, but the offense has been absolutely horrible for the past 3.5 games. It's hard to understand.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:57 pm

rass · Post by **rass** » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:08 am

Took a while to get there, but worth it.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:40 am

I'm amazed I've never read a story on this topic until now:

Do soft rims exist?

The author polled a bunch of ACC schools about how "tight" their rims are maintained, and the answers fall exactly where you would expect. It's the basketball equivalent of how you cut your infield grass. I was surprised to learn that the NBA standard is so much tighter than the college one, though.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:56 pm

Post by **Shirley** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:08 pm

Rex wrote:I'm amazed I've never read a story on this topic until now:

Do soft rims exist?

The author polled a bunch of ACC schools about how "tight" their rims are maintained, and the answers fall exactly where you would expect. It's the basketball equivalent of how you cut your infield grass. I was surprised to learn that the NBA standard is so much tighter than the college one, though.

I've thought that Cameron's rims look and sound soft for years. I always assumed it was because Duke always has a lot of three-point shooters.

Post by **brian** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:30 am

Kind of bizarre when you figure Michigan is kind of a middling team. If you're looking for a good betting dark horse for the NCAA tournament, a Beilein team is a good place to start though.

Post by **brian** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:46 pm

CMU finishes season with 8 straight losses. What da fuck? But Marcus Keene scored 41 tonight meaning his final season average is exactly 30.0. First player in 20 years to average 30 a game for the season.

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:03 am

brian wrote:CMU finishes season with 8 straight losses. What da fuck? But Marcus Keene scored 41 tonight meaning his final season average is exactly 30.0. First player in 20 years to average 30 a game for the season.

Any word if he is going pro/staying for his last year/looking for a grad-year transfer? I assume since he is turning 22 in a couple months (old for the draft) and not going to get his stock any higher without growing eight inches, it's the first option, but there are idiots up here who think he'd be perfect at Syracuse in the last of those cases.

Post by **brian** » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:49 am

DSafetyGuy wrote:
brian wrote:CMU finishes season with 8 straight losses. What da fuck? But Marcus Keene scored 41 tonight meaning his final season average is exactly 30.0. First player in 20 years to average 30 a game for the season.
Any word if he is going pro/staying for his last year/looking for a grad-year transfer? I assume since he is turning 22 in a couple months (old for the draft) and not going to get his stock any higher without growing eight inches, it's the first option, but there are idiots up here who think he'd be perfect at Syracuse in the last of those cases.

Because he transferred and he's not exactly a Rhodes scholar I very much doubt he's close to graduating, so that's not an option. I'd say it's 90 percent likely he goes pro. He's projecting as a mid to late second round pick/priority UDFA. Only reason he stays is to work on his defense and maybe boost his draft stock to late first round, but that's somewhat unlikely given his size.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:51 am

I keep wondering when sub-NBA kids are going to start leaving early to play overseas. It has to be coming soon, right?

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:29 pm

brian wrote: Only reason he stays is to work on his defense and maybe boost his draft stock to late first round, but that's somewhat unlikely given his size.

Very unlikely, as that article you linked awhile back made it clear he doesn't give two shits about playing defense.

Of course, there are some great NBA scorers who don't play much defense cough, James Harden, cough, so that may not be an impediment at the next level.

Giff · Post by **Giff** » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:44 pm

Sigh....

Post by **brian** » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:08 pm

So I think Syracuse is in for a variety of reasons, but we'll get to see how little stock the committee supposedly puts in RPI these days. Because Syracuse's RPI is pretty abysmal for an at-large.

(44 in KenPom, tho.)

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:10 pm

brian wrote:So I think Syracuse is in for a variety of reasons, but we'll get to see how little stock the committee supposedly puts in RPI these days. Because Syracuse's RPI is pretty abysmal for an at-large.

(44 in KenPom, tho.)

If they are in (I think they are), it's their list of wins against better teams (Virginia, Duke, Florida State, Wake, Miami, Monmouth all in RPI top 50). Their RPI is terrible for an at-large (#80, which would break their own record from last year as "worst ever to make tournament as an at-large"), but there are about 30 teams in front of them who have one win or fewer against top 50 RPI teams. Many of those fringe bubble teams will lose early this week, as well, and many of them have egregious holes in their resumes (Georgia is #53 RPI with 1-8 record against top 50, Clemson is #67 RPI and 6-12 in ACC, for example).

Post by **brian** » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:13 pm

It's a pretty weak bubble. I think you can make a case for Syracuse over most teams fighting to get in, but I'll be pretty upset if they pass over Illinois State for a team like Vanderbilt or Syracuse. Don't feel the same about any of the other mid-majors (Middle Tennessee, UT-Arlington) hoping for an at-large if they lose their conference tournament though.

Post by **brian** » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:35 pm

So in addition to Michigan's team plane crashing, looks like they won't be able to fly to DC until tomorrow. And they play at noon ET tomorrow. Don't know if it's possible, but guessing the Big Ten might try to change the schedule to let them play later in the day.

Post by **Shirley** » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:40 am

One down, three to go for UVA in the ACC tournament. Pitt's a dangerous team, because they have a couple of guys in Young and Artis who can score on anyone. If one or both get hot, they can beat nearly anybody. Luckily neither got going too much.

Notre Dame is next. Another team that can get hot and light up anyone. Fortunately, Virginia's system seems to trump Brey's. They haven't lost to the Irish since Notre Dame joined the conference, and all of the wins have been by double digits, including this year (17-point win in South Bend).

wlu_lax6 · Post by **wlu_lax6** » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:05 pm

Is Michigan playing in their practice gear? No Big 10 patches, no names on the back of the jersey, no logo no the shorts, small numbers.

edit
Yup....
http://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2017/03 ... tournament

Post by **brian** » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:34 pm

wlu_lax6 wrote:Is Michigan playing in their practice gear? No Big 10 patches, no names on the back of the jersey, no logo no the shorts, small numbers.

edit
Yup....
http://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2017/03 ... tournament

Story really kind of undersold why the jerseys couldn't come. Because the crash is being investigated by the FAA, NOTHING could be taken off the plane. Meaning a lot of the players were playing with their own personal shoes amongst other things. Only reason they had the practice gear they played in is because obviously it wasn't on the plane and they collected it from the practice facility so they could play in something.

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:43 pm

brian wrote:So in addition to Michigan's team plane crashing, looks like they won't be able to fly to DC until tomorrow. And they play at noon ET tomorrow. Don't know if it's possible, but guessing the Big Ten might try to change the schedule to let them play later in the day.

Yeah, they don't have any contingencies for this stuff, apparently.

MI is one of the hotter teams in the country right now. They have now won something like 6 of 8, two losses in that stretch:

- OT @ MN in a VERY dodgy officiating deal
- Buzzerbeater @ NW in a game that put the Wildcats in their first ever NCAA tourney. And a game directly after MI clinched their NCCA spot with a convincing win against POY nominee and top team Purdue.

So... You can put them at the 8/9 seed in a couple of weeks. That #1 seed in the second round is gonna be pissed if they are paying attention.

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:53 pm

brian wrote:
wlu_lax6 wrote:Is Michigan playing in their practice gear? No Big 10 patches, no names on the back of the jersey, no logo no the shorts, small numbers.

edit
Yup....
http://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2017/03 ... tournament
Story really kind of undersold why the jerseys couldn't come. Because the crash is being investigated by the FAA, NOTHING could be taken off the plane. Meaning a lot of the players were playing with their own personal shoes amongst other things. Only reason they had the practice gear they played in is because obviously it wasn't on the plane and they collected it from the practice facility so they could play in something.

Pretty scary incident, by the accounts I've read, mostly from Twitter.

And if anyone knows the Austin Hatch story... He is the guy that survived two plane crashes and is now a student assistant for the team (was a Mr. Basketball in IN). It was confirmed at some point that he wasn't on the plane, but rather attending classes.

Post by **brian** » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:04 pm

Here's a pretty good story about it. Not surprisingly, Beilein sounds like a boss.

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:56 pm

And MI's wacky late season continues with an OT win over Purdue. Unpleasant finish for PU, as they had a chance to ice the game but missed the front of a 1-1 and Zak Irvin sliced down the lane to put it into OT.

I'm wondering if they just played their way out of the 8-9 game.

wlu_lax6 · Post by **wlu_lax6** » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:11 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote:And MI's wacky late season continues with an OT win over Purdue. Unpleasant finish for PU, as they had a chance to ice the game but missed the front of a 1-1 and Zak Irvin sliced down the lane to put it into OT.

I'm wondering if they just played their way out of the 8-9 game.

You think? Lunardi's Bracketology has the Minnesota as a 6, Wisconsin as 6, Terps as 7, Northwestern as a 9 and Michigan as a 9. Just too much of a log jam with teams still alive in the Big 10 tournament to move them up all that much and quality of wins will be teams that are about as good as Michigan on any night. Maybe get a 7 (stretch for 6) if they win the whole thing but Terps/NW winner will get a bump by making the semis as will Wisconsin (assuming they beat Indiana who is next 4 out right now)

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:16 am

It feels a bit dirty to have any rooting interest in them, but I'm glad I put a bet down on Duke to win the NCAA tournament a few weeks ago. A few years ago someone (maybe Ken Pomeroy?) did an analysis showing that preseason ranking (which is a good proxy for sheer talent level) is as good a predictor of tournament success as anything, even when the highly ranked team struggles during the regular season. In recent years, Kentucky's 2011 and 2014 teams are good examples of this, even though they ultimately both lost to UConn in the Final Four. So even when Duke was losing a bunch of ACC games and Graymond was getting himself suspended for dirty play, I liked their chances given that they were considered to be by far the most talented team coming into the season.

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:21 am

Joe K wrote:It feels a bit dirty to have any rooting interest in them, but I'm glad I put a bet down on Duke to win the NCAA tournament a few weeks ago. A few years ago someone (maybe Ken Pomeroy?) did an analysis showing that preseason ranking (which is a good proxy for sheer talent level) is as good a predictor of tournament success as anything, even when the highly ranked team struggles during the regular season. In recent years, Kentucky's 2011 and 2014 teams are good examples of this, even though they ultimately both lost to UConn in the Final Four. So even when Duke was losing a bunch of ACC games and Graymond was getting himself suspended for dirty play, I liked their chances given that they were considered to be by far the most talented team coming into the season.

I like this.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:25 am

Also, can someone explain to me why UNC is still considered a lock for a #1 seed, despite having 7 losses? I would think that Oregon (and to a lesser extent, Arizona and Kentucky) would have an argument for jumping them with a conference tournament win. But it seems like the ACC is guaranteed at least one #1 seed every year and there's no other viable option this season.

Brontoburglar · Post by **Brontoburglar** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:48 pm

bought tickets to the regional here in KC last summer @ $300 each thinking KU would be in the region

sold them this afternoon @ $800 each

that'll do

Post by **brian** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:58 pm

Eustachy is such a douche.