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What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:27 pm
by Shirley
Leaving out the obvious states, I'm curious what y'all think of as The South.

This was inspired by this article at 538 that seemed shocked that Maryland wasn't considered southern by folks in The South.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:34 pm
by Rex
1) Were you on the side of the confederacy?
2) Do you have toll booths?

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:35 pm
by Johnny Carwash
Of those, I went with VA, KY, TN, AR, FL. I think of Texas and Oklahoma as kind of their own thing.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:39 pm
by Shirley
Yeah, I think Texas and West Virginia are kind of gray areas. If I had to choose only Yes or No though, I say No. Florida is a No as well, even though the top part is actually South. In my mind the South ends around Jacksonville. And to the north, it stops right around Fredericksburg, VA. NOVA is NOT the South.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:41 pm
by Rex
Personally, I think the South begins in Fredericksburg when you are traveling on 95, and somewhere around Winchester when you are traveling on 81.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:42 pm
by mister d
I think DE + MD are in a blurry some yes / some no section where some feels legit south and some very much doesn't.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:43 pm
by Rex
Both Texas and Florida have regions that are very much the South. I believe Florida has toll booths, so technically it does not satisfy my two-part test. But I've also been to Destin.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:43 pm
by mister d
(I went WV because its the northest south, not because its part of a straight line where everything below counts.)

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:49 pm
by Rex
My feelings on West Virginia are these:

1) It not only was on the Union side but owes its existence to being on the Union side
2) The only 32 miles that most people see don't feel southern at all
3) Their rival is Pitt

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:15 pm
by Johnnie
Don't feel like voting because it's not specific enough. It's roughly what I've circled.

Yes, I include Houston but not Dallas (You're welcome, rap music I listened to while I lived in "the South"). Certainly not Austin and definitely not San Antonio. That area of Oklahoma I have added? Totally guessing, but I suspect that's where it kinda fizzles.

And I'm trying to figure out where to draw the correct line in Florida. The pan handle, yes. Tampa, yes. Jacksonville, yes. Orlando? Never been, not sure. I just don't know where "rural" ends and "urban" begins. And I've road tripped from Tampa to Miami. Miami is not "the South" by any means. But I saw lots of "the South" on the way.


Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:25 pm
by Rex
Good idea.

Image

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:38 pm
by HaulCitgo
The South does not include Florida, New Orleans or Texas. Certainly not MD or DE but not WV either. Oklahoma is decidedly midwest. Closer call is TN not KY.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:42 pm
by mister d
I feel like you have to spend two weeks auditing in Smyrna before you can declare Delaware 100% out.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:46 pm
by govmentchedda
Johnnie wrote:Don't feel like voting because it's not specific enough. It's roughly what I've circled.

Yes, I include Houston but not Dallas (You're welcome, rap music I listened to while I lived in "the South"). Certainly not Austin and definitely not San Antonio. That area of Oklahoma I have added? Totally guessing, but I suspect that's where it kinda fizzles.

And I'm trying to figure out where to draw the correct line in Florida. The pan handle, yes. Tampa, yes. Jacksonville, yes. Orlando? Never been, not sure. I just don't know where "rural" ends and "urban" begins. And I've road tripped from Tampa to Miami. Miami is not "the South" by any means. But I saw lots of "the South" on the way.

Your Florida line is pretty close, in my opinion, but you've excluded Tampa, even though you say you include it. I'd argue the line runs through Tampa. Or rather, Tampa proper, not the south. Greater Hillsborough county, the south.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:48 pm
by govmentchedda
I'd also say Gulf beaches south of Tampa Bay (the actual water, and not the generic area name) are not the south, while those north of the bay might be.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:51 pm
by Ryan
I only picked 3 of those - VA, TN, and FL

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:20 pm
by sancarlos
The southern half of Missouri is culturally southern. Gotta split that state in half.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:22 pm
by Johnnie
govmentchedda wrote:Your Florida line is pretty close, in my opinion, but you've excluded Tampa, even though you say you include it. I'd argue the line runs through Tampa. Or rather, Tampa proper, not the south. Greater Hillsborough county, the south.
Ah, dammit. For some reason in my head I thought Tampa was a bit more north. Just mentally adjust my line to meet what you're saying.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:45 pm
by EnochRoot
govmentchedda wrote:
Johnnie wrote:Don't feel like voting because it's not specific enough. It's roughly what I've circled.

Yes, I include Houston but not Dallas (You're welcome, rap music I listened to while I lived in "the South"). Certainly not Austin and definitely not San Antonio. That area of Oklahoma I have added? Totally guessing, but I suspect that's where it kinda fizzles.

And I'm trying to figure out where to draw the correct line in Florida. The pan handle, yes. Tampa, yes. Jacksonville, yes. Orlando? Never been, not sure. I just don't know where "rural" ends and "urban" begins. And I've road tripped from Tampa to Miami. Miami is not "the South" by any means. But I saw lots of "the South" on the way.

Your Florida line is pretty close, in my opinion, but you've excluded Tampa, even though you say you include it. I'd argue the line runs through Tampa. Or rather, Tampa proper, not the south. Greater Hillsborough county, the south.
Chedda, if you're honest that line runs 200 miles south.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:41 am
by govmentchedda
It probably mirrors the coastline, to be honest. Maybe 20-50 miles away or so at parts.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:24 am
by tennbengal
Johnny Carwash wrote:Of those, I went with VA, KY, TN, AR, FL. I think of Texas and Oklahoma as kind of their own thing.
This.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:46 am
by Johnny Carwash
Hey Rex, I see that you drew a small circle around Atlanta, presumably to indicate its un-Southernness due to transplants, etc. Would you give Charlotte the same treatment? Richmond?

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:52 am
by Joe K
sancarlos wrote:The southern half of Missouri is culturally southern. Gotta split that state in half.
I'm not exactly sure where the line would be, but St. Louis and its southern suburbs are not the South. I've been to Jefferson City a few times, and I wouldn't call that the South either. But if you drive south along the Mississippi River from St. Louis, you definitely enter "the South" somewhere before you get to Memphis.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:01 am
by Ryan
Entire states or GTFO

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:06 am
by bfj
If anyone wants to see wlu's comment, check the NFL thread!

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:13 am
by Sabo
bfj wrote:If anyone wants to see wlu's comment, check the NFL thread!
This might be peak wlu_lax.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:41 am
by Rex
Johnny Carwash wrote:Hey Rex, I see that you drew a small circle around Atlanta, presumably to indicate its un-Southernness due to transplants, etc. Would you give Charlotte the same treatment? Richmond?

I don't think the joke works for anyplace else in the South. Atlanta is southern in the same way that Los Angeles is west coast--a bizarre perversion that magnifies some parts of the surrounding culture but rejects others.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:47 am
by brian
sancarlos wrote:The southern half of Missouri is culturally southern. Gotta split that state in half.
Southern Ohio and southern Indiana as well.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:18 pm
by Steve of phpBB
sancarlos wrote:The southern half of Missouri is culturally southern. Gotta split that state in half.
I would also include the southern half of Illinois. The northern border of the South is I-72/74/70.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:15 pm
by Shirley
Rex wrote:Good idea.

Image
That kind of matches my feeling as well. Johnnie, most of Virginia is definitely The South. I've only been to Tampa once, and it didn't feel like the South to me at all. It felt like Florida - tropical and bland. That said, the panhandle is definitely The South.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:45 pm
by Rex
There's another line I find to be relevant. It's a little harder to conceptualize but here's my best effort:

Image

Essentially it is everything on the Atlantic coast and everything north of I-85 until Atlanta. I would say that this separates the South from the Deep South. The places on the right, while Southern, also have a certain cultural affinity to the Northeast, though some won't admit it. They share a colonial history, and most of that area can reach New York or at least Philly by car in a day. Not coincidentally, the line also approximates the division between ACC and SEC fans.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:21 pm
by mister d
C'mon, motherfuckers. They fly the confederate flag during their week long tailgates in Dover, DE. If that's not southern, this country is even more messed up than I thought.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:27 pm
by Nonlinear FC
Shirley wrote:Leaving out the obvious states, I'm curious what y'all think of as The South.

This was inspired by this article at 538 that seemed shocked that Maryland wasn't considered southern by folks in The South.
Moving to MD from MI, I never really considered this state to be truly southern. I spent a lot of time in GA as a youngster, that was my perspective and context.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:33 pm
by Nonlinear FC
Sabo wrote:
bfj wrote:If anyone wants to see wlu's comment, check the NFL thread!
This might be peak wlu_lax.
That a guy on here has "peak" anything should count for something, right?

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:38 pm
by Nonlinear FC
mister d wrote:C'mon, motherfuckers. They fly the confederate flag during their week long tailgates in Dover, DE. If that's not southern, this country is even more messed up than I thought.

Nope. Confederate flag doesn't get you to Southern.

See: Just about every non urban area in the country these days. PA, NY, Mi, NJ, NH, MA, VT I can attest to seeing conf. flags hanging from porches over the last year.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:17 pm
by Shirley
Rex wrote:There's another line I find to be relevant. It's a little harder to conceptualize but here's my best effort:

Image

Essentially it is everything on the Atlantic coast and everything north of I-85 until Atlanta. I would say that this separates the South from the Deep South. The places on the right, while Southern, also have a certain cultural affinity to the Northeast, though some won't admit it. They share a colonial history, and most of that area can reach New York or at least Philly by car in a day. Not coincidentally, the line also approximates the division between ACC and SEC fans.
Oh, I don't know about those entire coastlines. The South Carolina and Georgia coasts outside of Hilton Head and a few other resorts, are pretty deep. Maybe you can exclude the actual beachfront property. It gets pretty Southern in damn hurry even in North Carolina once you get about two blocks off the ocean and/or intercoastal.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:54 pm
by Rex
I don't think this is a distinction between "more south" or "less south", and I definitely don't think there is a political distinction to be made here. More like two distinct visions of what the South is, one that is defined by its proximity to the northeast (and big Yankee transplant populations), the other that is probably influenced more by Texas and the Mississippi Delta more than anything else.

Another division, one that would bring Kentucky and Tennessee in with Virginia and the Carolinas, is between tobacco producing regions and non-tobacco producing regions. Oddly, or perhaps not oddly, drawing the line that way also draws a clear distinction between football country and basketball country (or maybe football country and "we care about other sports" country).

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:26 pm
by Johnnie
I see a vulture/peacock/turkey head and Raleigh is the eye. It's weird.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:22 am
by DC47
brian wrote:
sancarlos wrote:The southern half of Missouri is culturally southern. Gotta split that state in half.
Southern Ohio and southern Indiana as well.
This.

Re: What is The South?

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:02 am
by Pruitt
I know I'm in the south when I see the first Cracker Barrel.