Ball of Confusion

[sancarlos]

And I know conflicts exists for centuries prior.

If the evangelicals had their way, we’d have more Crusades.

[Johnnie]

I remember the alternate perspective of the Revolutionary War was briefly touched on in high school history class when my teacher said "George the 3rd received a list of people (via the Declaration of Independence) to hang for treason if the British won." We all kinda looked at each other and had a discussion about the "What ifs" of it all.

But the topic was forever crystalized in my mind when I went through 'Fieldcraft - Hostile' training prior to my Iraq deployment and we were in a cultural familiarization class really going into everything when the topic of 'insurgents' came up and the instructor goes "You may think they're terrorists, but have you ever thought about the fact that George Washington and all of his friends launched the greatest insurgency in the history of mankind because it led to the creation of our current country?" Everybody paused in that moment.

I say that to say, I don't know where to begin with all of this Israel/Palestine/Hamas timeline and who's right and wrong in the grand scheme of things. I just hope that those mercilessly killing innocents get some sort of retribution.

[L-Jam3]

And I know conflicts exists for centuries prior.

If the evangelicals had their way, we’d have more Crusades.

Are you not counting the one from 2003-2022?

[mister d]

I say that to say, I don't know where to begin with all of this Israel/Palestine/Hamas timeline and who's right and wrong in the grand scheme of things. I just hope that those mercilessly killing innocents get some sort of retribution.

Well put here.

[Steve of phpBB]

Some interesting history and perspective here.

https://theracket.news/p/the-iron-wall-failed

[Steve of phpBB]

I just hope that those mercilessly killing innocents get some sort of retribution.

Unfortunately, the retribution often involves mercilessly killing innocents. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents. Which leads to retribution. Which mercilessly kills innocents.

[EnochRoot]

Eh, I'm pretty sure I have enough perspective to decide that it's immoral to deliberately kill hundreds of people, and instigate actions that will kill thousands more, just to make a point.

If you're not a free person, you do what you must to obtain your freedom.

Extrapolate it out: would you fault a slave for killing his owner in 1840s Mississippi after one too many beatings?

The Palestinian cause is perhaps our greatest blindspot.

[Steve of phpBB]

Eh, I'm pretty sure I have enough perspective to decide that it's immoral to deliberately kill hundreds of people, and instigate actions that will kill thousands more, just to make a point.

If you're not a free person, you do what you must to obtain your freedom.

Extrapolate it out: would you fault a slave for killing his owner in 1840s Mississippi after one too many beatings?

The Palestinian cause is perhaps our greatest blindspot.

Some problems with that reasoning:

* Murdering babies or young people at a music festival won’t gain the Palestinians freedom.

* There’s certainly no reason to think the Palestinians “must” kill all those people to get their freedom.

* The mass murder of civilians is not analogous to killing a slave owner to free a slave.

[MaxWebster]

as i alluded to, it's entirely god's/God's/Allah's/Alanis Morrissette's fault.



(sarcasm but not really)

[Giff]

How about just the bare minimum of caring about the atrocities committed by one side while also caring about the atrocities on the other side?

[EnochRoot]

Eh, I'm pretty sure I have enough perspective to decide that it's immoral to deliberately kill hundreds of people, and instigate actions that will kill thousands more, just to make a point.

If you're not a free person, you do what you must to obtain your freedom.

Extrapolate it out: would you fault a slave for killing his owner in 1840s Mississippi after one too many beatings?

The Palestinian cause is perhaps our greatest blindspot.

Some problems with that reasoning:

* Murdering babies or young people at a music festival won’t gain the Palestinians freedom.

* There’s certainly no reason to think the Palestinians “must” kill all those people to get their freedom.

* The mass murder of civilians is not analogous to killing a slave owner to free a slave.

You’re still attempting to apply logic where none exists.

We’re not worthy of being moral arbiters, because frankly we’ve done jack shit to prevent this other than to cozy up to Israel and Netanyahu (oh and some annual aid to the Palestinians). I’m not playing some game here. I find all of it to be abhorrent. But I also feel we’re not capable of judgment, because we simple have no idea how we would act.

[Steve of phpBB]

I certainly agree that I don’t know how I’d act in that situation. Thank god I’ve never lived under occupation. But I still think we can judge the act.

The fact that endless occupation and brutality might drive me to an immoral act doesn’t mean the act isn’t immoral.

[Nonlinear FC]

How about just the bare minimum of caring about the atrocities committed by one side while also caring about the atrocities on the other side?

This is where I'm at on this. I'm pretty read up on this stuff and there's just so much grey for so many reasons.

I can't remember which comedian (Seder, I think) who said something fairly similar but also (paraphrasing) "I'm sick and fucking tired of hearing the dumbest people on the internet saying "here's what should be done..." Shut the fuck up meathead body builder from Des Moines who just found out about this conflict on Saturday."

So many people that don't know the complexity and/or history popping off on both sides.

Twitter, which I scrolled through a bit this morning, is an absolute garbage bin. Anyone trying to follow this or learn on that platform is really REALLY going to come away misinformed.

[HaulCitgo]

Nah. Joe has as much right to an opinion as anyone. As this is now a war, information becomes an objective. What makes Joe think he can believe any source of info. The fact that he's willing to have an opinion and share it is better than a bunch of folks not the least of which are those telling him to shut up

[Johnnie]

Dayum.

[HaulCitgo]

Well that would be one side. Does anyone discuss this like a normal person?

[degenerasian]

Well that would be one side. Does anyone discuss this like a normal person?

Situation has not been normal for 80 years? So no position on it makes sense?

[HaulCitgo]

Hear you but maybe start with explaining the situation. That's pretty normal. Historical context pretty normal too. Positions of each side? Also normal. Yet I have basically no idea what is going on over there or why.

[brian]

Seems to me that bombing a hospital and killing 500 people is not something the "good guys" would do.

[Nonlinear FC]

Hear you but maybe start with explaining the situation. That's pretty normal. Historical context pretty normal too. Positions of each side? Also normal. Yet I have basically no idea what is going on over there or why.

Dude. You don't need this board to get a basic overview of what's going on.

I, for one, don't have any inclination to type it all out. It's been a shitshow from Day 0 in the 40s.

[sancarlos]

Hear you but maybe start with explaining the situation. That's pretty normal. Historical context pretty normal too. Positions of each side? Also normal. Yet I have basically no idea what is going on over there or why.

Citgo, I found this article provides some helpful historical context.

[Steve of phpBB]

Hear you but maybe start with explaining the situation. That's pretty normal. Historical context pretty normal too. Positions of each side? Also normal. Yet I have basically no idea what is going on over there or why.

Dude. You don't need this board to get a basic overview of what's going on.

I, for one, don't have any inclination to type it all out. It's been a shitshow from Day 0 in the 40s.

I think you misspelled “1800s”.

The basics are pretty simple, right? Two disparate tribes/ethnic groups have credible and irreconcilable claims to the same place as a homeland.

And there’s enough people on each side that neither can absorb the other; instead both can (and have) hurt the other, leading to mutual fear, distrust, and hatred.

Add to that the fact that one of those sides was forcibly dispersed and then subjected to centuries of off-and-on oppression wherever they went, culminating in probably the greatest genocide in human history. So their survivors have a very real and legitimate fear of extermination and an extra strong desire for a defensible homeland.

And echo the recommendation for that Iron Wall article.

[TankFarm2023]

I'd link to it, but I confess I haven't a clue. Regardless, if it has not yet been mentioned, the Plain English podcast with Derek Thompson is always quite good. The most recent, with Peter Beinart, is both enlightening and heartbreaking.

[Nonlinear FC]

Hear you but maybe start with explaining the situation. That's pretty normal. Historical context pretty normal too. Positions of each side? Also normal. Yet I have basically no idea what is going on over there or why.

Dude. You don't need this board to get a basic overview of what's going on.

I, for one, don't have any inclination to type it all out. It's been a shitshow from Day 0 in the 40s.

I think you misspelled “1800s”.

I mean, if we're playing this game, it goes back 4000 years.

[Nonlinear FC]

Pretty decent overview from the History Channel.

[Steve of phpBB]

Hear you but maybe start with explaining the situation. That's pretty normal. Historical context pretty normal too. Positions of each side? Also normal. Yet I have basically no idea what is going on over there or why.

Dude. You don't need this board to get a basic overview of what's going on.

I, for one, don't have any inclination to type it all out. It's been a shitshow from Day 0 in the 40s.

I think you misspelled “1800s”.

I mean, if we're playing this game, it goes back 4000 years.

Sure, but my point was that the push to re-establish a Jewish homeland that led to the creation of Israel in 1948 began before WW II, as did the specific problem of two peoples treating the same area as a homeland.

Here’s some decent insights: https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... ns/675675/

[degenerasian]

Hear you but maybe start with explaining the situation. That's pretty normal. Historical context pretty normal too. Positions of each side? Also normal. Yet I have basically no idea what is going on over there or why.

Dude. You don't need this board to get a basic overview of what's going on.

I, for one, don't have any inclination to type it all out. It's been a shitshow from Day 0 in the 40s.

I think you misspelled “1800s”.

I mean, if we're playing this game, it goes back 4000 years.

I think the best place and easiest place to start is the end of WWI. Use the Ottoman Empire as a clean slate. The area was under the Ottoman Empire who fought with the Germans. Both the Jews and the Arabs in the area helped the British defeat the Ottoman Empire wiping it out. Then under British rule, there was mass migration of both Jews and Arabs to the area trying to reclaim the land as theirs. British always sided with the Jews and broken promises to the Arabs, so the Arabs have been infuriated. Attempts to partition (Israel 55%, Palestine 45%, Jerusalem neutral) were refused by the Arabs and the war of 1948 established the Israeli state. The Arabs should have taken the deal but to this day, they refuse to recognize Israel’s existence.

[Nonlinear FC]

My point is that the OG conflict is over what both sides (among others) consider to be their homeland. And, yes, agree that the easiest way to discuss the modern origins begins after WW1 when various promises were made.

[Shirley]

Hear you but maybe start with explaining the situation. That's pretty normal. Historical context pretty normal too. Positions of each side? Also normal. Yet I have basically no idea what is going on over there or why.

Dude. You don't need this board to get a basic overview of what's going on.

I, for one, don't have any inclination to type it all out. It's been a shitshow from Day 0 in the 40s.

I think you misspelled “1800s”.

I mean, if we're playing this game, it goes back 4000 years.

Eh, I don't buy that. The real problems are way more modern than that (as Degen pointed out). Islam didn't even exist until the 7th century AD. Nearly every country in the world has had some turnover in who lives and rules there in the last 4000 years. This one is unique due to the religious aspect, and of course, the standard post-British Empire problems.

[HaulCitgo]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go ... =104059871

"One person told ABC News that the “bulk” of the assistance will likely go toward Ukraine, while others also said that it included $10 billion for Israel."

[Nonlinear FC]

Hear you but maybe start with explaining the situation. That's pretty normal. Historical context pretty normal too. Positions of each side? Also normal. Yet I have basically no idea what is going on over there or why.

Dude. You don't need this board to get a basic overview of what's going on.

I, for one, don't have any inclination to type it all out. It's been a shitshow from Day 0 in the 40s.

I think you misspelled “1800s”.

I mean, if we're playing this game, it goes back 4000 years.

Eh, I don't buy that. The real problems are way more modern than that (as Degen pointed out). Islam didn't even exist until the 7th century AD. Nearly every country in the world has had some turnover in who lives and rules there in the last 4000 years. This one is unique due to the religious aspect, and of course, the standard post-British Empire problems.

I guess you'll see where I clarified the point. Not sure what there is to "buy" in my point. It's not just territory we're talking about here, it's the origin story of two major religions. Absolutely plays a part in why this shit is so sideways.

[HaulCitgo]

"Budget experts say Israel’s assistance needs aren’t likely to be urgent due to a 2016 agreement that provides Israel $3.8 billion a year over 10 years."

[Shirley]

I guess you'll see where I clarified the point. Not sure what there is to "buy" in my point. It's not just territory we're talking about here, it's the origin story of two major religions. Absolutely plays a part in why this shit is so sideways.

I’m just arguing the timeline. Lots of folks keep saying this is 4000 or 7000 years old or whatever. The implication is that it’s essentially impossible to solve because it’s always been this way. And while it’s clearly very hard to solve, I don’t think the issue is nearly as old as claimed.

[HaulCitgo]

Feels like some restraint so far. Maybe that's just ignorance but tanks could have rolled already? Glimmer of hope?

[HaulCitgo]

Not so much anymore

[Shirley]

I'm probably being naive, but I think tanks and troops are a good thing for the Palestinians. They can more directly target Hamas that way instead of just bombing the shit out of everyone.

[mister d]

Lets hope they remember to say "thank you".

[HaulCitgo]

Maybe. But harder for the tanks to tell which structures to destroy when Hamas not wearing the city edition unis

[bfj]

Maybe. But harder for the tanks to tell which structures to destroy when Hamas not wearing the city edition unis

Now I’ll get an ad for that hat in my FB feed.

[Nonlinear FC]

I mean, look no further than today's news of Israel owning that they just bombed and attacked a refugee camp.

It was said early on here... The issue with trying to attack Hamas is that their weapons caches and other targets are in the middle of an incredibly densely populated area. There's no getting around it, given the situation created by the... *waves hands at situation*... And it's why pressure is going to continue to mount for Israel to pull back. Hundreds of civilians killed today.

There's a point where the response is so much worse in terms of body count that world opinion will swing. And that's a gross thing to type, but it's also reality.