Ball of Confusion

[sancarlos]

[Pruitt IV]

And there advice (while most likely very expensive) is really, really bad.

Bolsonaro will probably never set foot in Brazil again.

[Johnnie]

Yup. He's actually living in Florida now. Not even kidding.

[govmentchedda]

Yup. He's actually living in Florida now. Not even kidding.

There were clips of him walking around Publix a week or so ago.

[rass]

Yup. He's actually living in Florida now. Not even kidding.

There were clips of him walking around Publix a week or so ago.

As one does...

[govmentchedda]

Yup. He's actually living in Florida now. Not even kidding.

There were clips of him walking around Publix a week or so ago.

As one does...

Fascist dictators, they're just like us!

[Johnnie]

And already 1,500 people are in custody. At least Brazil won't put up with that shit.

[sancarlos]

And already 1,500 people are in custody. At least Brazil won't put up with that shit.

Helps that Lula was already inaugurated. If Biden had been inaugurated before January 6, he could’ve been calling out the National Guard instead of Trump refusing to do so.

[Pruitt IV]

India: violent Hindu nationalism underwritten by big business

[rass]

Seems not so good in Israel right now.

[Steve of phpBB]

Good lord. What a tragedy. For everyone there.

[Pruitt IV]

Sane Israelis will soon be turning their attention from the religious right's attempts to emulate Iran to the catastrophic failure of military intelligence. Netanyahu's entire selling point is that only he can keep Israel safe.

[brian]

Sane Israelis will soon be turning their attention from the religious right's attempts to emulate Iran to the catastrophic failure of military intelligence. Netanyahu's entire selling point is that only he can keep Israel safe.

Yeah that’s just one of the dozens of tragedies of this. Bellicosity by Israel is only so effective to a point and without a carrot to go with the stick….

But Bibi’s whole schtick is he’s the only one standing in the way of these kinds of tragedies. Not so much I guess.

[L-Jam3]

I hate to be that guy, but is there any appreciable chance this was a false flag?

[Steve of phpBB]

I hate to be that guy, but is there any appreciable chance this was a false flag?

If this attack is as big as currently reported, that’d be hard to imagine. Humongous risk and not much upside, IMO.

[L-Jam3]

I wasn’t trying to suggest anything. I frankly don’t understand the problem as much as I feel I should, but from what I can gather both sides have valid arguments, and neither side is dealing with anything close to clean hands in their actions. It’s just a horribly unfortunate situation, and the religious aspects of it seem like this will never end.

[brian]

Malcolm X, chickens coming home to roost, things of that nature.

[EnochRoot]

I wasn’t trying to suggest anything. I frankly don’t understand the problem as much as I feel I should, but from what I can gather both sides have valid arguments, and neither side is dealing with anything close to clean hands in their actions. It’s just a horribly unfortunate situation, and the religious aspects of it seem like this will never end.

From my perspective, Israel exercises a brutal, extreme right occupation of Palestine.

Malcolm X, chickens coming home to roost, things of that nature.

Indeed.

[L-Jam3]

Do you mean right as in “correct” or right as in “right-wing”?

[Steve of phpBB]

I wasn’t trying to suggest anything. I frankly don’t understand the problem as much as I feel I should, but from what I can gather both sides have valid arguments, and neither side is dealing with anything close to clean hands in their actions. It’s just a horribly unfortunate situation, and the religious aspects of it seem like this will never end.

From my perspective, Israel exercises a brutal, extreme right occupation of Palestine.

For sure.

But I don’t see how murdering a bunch of Israeli teens will stop that, or make it end any sooner. It’ll just lead to more death and oppression for the Palestinians.

[EnochRoot]

I wasn’t trying to suggest anything. I frankly don’t understand the problem as much as I feel I should, but from what I can gather both sides have valid arguments, and neither side is dealing with anything close to clean hands in their actions. It’s just a horribly unfortunate situation, and the religious aspects of it seem like this will never end.

From my perspective, Israel exercises a brutal, extreme right occupation of Palestine.

For sure.

But I don’t see how murdering a bunch of Israeli teens will stop that, or make it end any sooner. It’ll just lead to more death and oppression for the Palestinians.

Extrapolate my point though. Why expect a measured response when your oppressor routinely torments you with its boot on your neck?

[Steve of phpBB]

I wasn’t trying to suggest anything. I frankly don’t understand the problem as much as I feel I should, but from what I can gather both sides have valid arguments, and neither side is dealing with anything close to clean hands in their actions. It’s just a horribly unfortunate situation, and the religious aspects of it seem like this will never end.

From my perspective, Israel exercises a brutal, extreme right occupation of Palestine.

For sure.

But I don’t see how murdering a bunch of Israeli teens will stop that, or make it end any sooner. It’ll just lead to more death and oppression for the Palestinians.

Extrapolate my point though. Why expect a measured response when your oppressor routinely torments you with its boot on your neck?

The attack is understandable. Just, IMO, not justifiable in a moral sense.

[HaulCitgo]

Anyone want to give the history here? There's probably some groups that care a lot but when you've been fighting for the last 75? years your problems have worn out their welcome globally.

[EnochRoot]

Anyone want to give the history here? There's probably some groups that care a lot but when you've been fighting for the last 75? years your problems have worn out their welcome globally.

Set aside for the moment the fact that Benjamin Netanyahu is the king of stochastic terror. The fact there's a sentiment out there that suggests the plight of the Palestinians has 'worn out its welcome' on the global stage is why they might go to such extreme measures.

[EnochRoot]

Do you mean right as in “correct” or right as in “right-wing”?

Sorry I just saw this. Extreme right wing.

[EnochRoot]

I wasn’t trying to suggest anything. I frankly don’t understand the problem as much as I feel I should, but from what I can gather both sides have valid arguments, and neither side is dealing with anything close to clean hands in their actions. It’s just a horribly unfortunate situation, and the religious aspects of it seem like this will never end.

From my perspective, Israel exercises a brutal, extreme right occupation of Palestine.

For sure.

But I don’t see how murdering a bunch of Israeli teens will stop that, or make it end any sooner. It’ll just lead to more death and oppression for the Palestinians.

Extrapolate my point though. Why expect a measured response when your oppressor routinely torments you with its boot on your neck?

The attack is understandable. Just, IMO, not justifiable in a moral sense.

No offense, but this is crap. You (we) lack the proper perspective to pass judgement on a slow motion train wreck that was built specifically to crush the will of a displaced people.

[Steve of phpBB]

Eh, I'm pretty sure I have enough perspective to decide that it's immoral to deliberately kill hundreds of people, and instigate actions that will kill thousands more, just to make a point.

[Pruitt IV]

Eh, I'm pretty sure I have enough perspective to decide that it's immoral to deliberately kill hundreds of people, and instigate actions that will kill thousands more, just to make a point.

My only contribution in this discussion will be to echo these sentiments.

[brian]

Eh, I'm pretty sure I have enough perspective to decide that it's immoral to deliberately kill hundreds of people, and instigate actions that will kill thousands more, just to make a point.

My only contribution in this discussion will be to echo these sentiments.

Non-violent protest with fringe violence making the unspoken point of “this could be what comes next” was very effective in the 20th century. Sadly I don’t know if it would move the needle these days. The Israeli people sure as shit don’t seem to care about the plight of the people their government is persecuting.

As a general statement separated from this cock-up I’m going to throw a huge “fuck that” to anyone who wants to espouse anything along the lines of “violence is never the answer”. Sometimes it’s the ONLY answer.

[HaulCitgo]

Come on Pruitt. I know maybe close to home but if the conversation cant be had here well were all fucked. Lots of shit talking but someone please enlighten us. I saw something in wapo but blocked so... if it can't be had here we're all fucked

[brian]

It’s immoral for Hamas to target civilians and equally as immoral for the IDF to do the same. Yet both continue to do it.

[Steve of phpBB]

Eh, I'm pretty sure I have enough perspective to decide that it's immoral to deliberately kill hundreds of people, and instigate actions that will kill thousands more, just to make a point.

My only contribution in this discussion will be to echo these sentiments.

Non-violent protest with fringe violence making the unspoken point of “this could be what comes next” was very effective in the 20th century. Sadly I don’t know if it would move the needle these days. The Israeli people sure as shit don’t seem to care about the plight of the people their government is persecuting.

As a general statement separated from this cock-up I’m going to throw a huge “fuck that” to anyone who wants to espouse anything along the lines of “violence is never the answer”. Sometimes it’s the ONLY answer.

I think violence can be an answer sometimes. But there’s different types and degrees of violence. If Hamas limited its attacks to an IDF base, that could theoretically be justifiable. But this weekend’s murder spree was basically another 9/11. It wasn’t ok on 9/11 and it’s not okay now.

Edit: It’s impossible to say where the line is between justifiable violence and non-justifiable violence. But wherever that line is, the Hamas attacks are way past it.

[bfj]

Eh, I'm pretty sure I have enough perspective to decide that it's immoral to deliberately kill hundreds of people, and instigate actions that will kill thousands more, just to make a point.

My only contribution in this discussion will be to echo these sentiments.

Seconded, although I’ve written and deleted 20 posts on this thread since yesterday.

[MaxWebster]

I truly respect and even crave everyone's opinions in here - i've been intentionally not watching a second of news because (24/7 news very literally gives me some big triggers...) i'm sure it'll be dramatized/opinionated in a way i don't need. I really have trouble with this conflict (jfc i'm even using bullshit euphemisms. ok war) in particular and I'm not quite sure how yet. Or if I ever have been.

I do always think it's really important to not have any snap judgements other than...well, the obvious (killing mass amounts of people is pretty much the lowest point imaginable. I think.). But it really is vastly complex with so many root issues - fk, 30 (um more than 30) years ago i was taking classes on this conflict in university. Sigh. As a staunch athiest who has morphed from "religion is fine but silly" to my current "religion is the worst poison humanity has ever created" I tend to get knee-jerky with religious conflicts but obviouslyobviously there is so much more.

...anyone care to weigh in on anything in here...:

https://www.hamiltonnolan.com/p/retire- ... -terrorism

edit: meant to include this part which is sure to be spicy - don't mean to inflame at all - I'm always learning. I really would like to hear what you guys think...

In an interview with CNN yesterday, Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, a leader of the Palestinian National Initiative, said this: “We have lived all our lives under occupation. My father lived under occupation. My daughter is living under occupation. We want a time, when we, the Palestinians will be free. Hamas was not there thirty years or forty years ago. But before that, the P.L.O. was described as terrorists. Any Palestinian who struggles for his rights, or for freedom, is described as ‘terrorist.’ And the question here, ‘Do we have the right to struggle for freedom? Do we have the right to struggle for real democracy? Do we have the right to have normal democratic elections, which unfortunately Israel and the United States don’t support?’ I think we are entitled to that. But the unfortunate thing, if we struggle in a military form, we are terrorists. If we struggle in a nonviolent way, we are described as violent. If we even resist with words, we are described as provocateurs. If you support Palestinians and you are a foreigner, they describe you as ‘Anti-Semite.’ And if you are a Jewish person—and there are many—who supports the Palestinian cause, they call him ‘self-hating Jew.’ This should end. It doesn’t make sense.”

It doesn’t make sense. Rarely do we get such a good opportunity for addition by subtraction as we have here. No more “terrorism.” No more “terrorist.” No more “terror,” or wars that are allegedly being fought against it. Describe things as they are, and how they came to be. A little less laziness can do a lot of good.

[Steve of phpBB]

I dunno. The PLO *were* terrorists under most common definitions of the word.

To be clear, while I'm saying that the attacks last weekend were evil, that doesn't mean I'm saying that Palestinians are evil, or that the Israelis are "good", or that the occupation is justified.

Hell, I think it's possible to say that "Israel" an an abstract entity deserved some kind of attack, given the endless brutal occupation and blockade of Gaza, expansion of the West Bank settlements, etc. But the attack wasn't simply on "Israel," but on hundreds of individual people - and there is no way that those individuals deserved what happened.

[MaxWebster]

i know - i agree w/ everything you said, which is - again all due respect - still kinda talking in circles isn't it? that's what makes this so maddening and i'm just some average privileged white guy who is as far removed from this as possible. Not even talking about the international political shouting that inevitably follows ... or doesn't even follow, there's just everyone's assigned sides.

easy for me to just say "religion bad" and turn up the music. which is awful - jkjk.

(mostly)

[The Sybian]

I truly respect and even crave everyone's opinions in here - i've been intentionally not watching a second of news because (24/7 news very literally gives me some big triggers...) i'm sure it'll be dramatized/opinionated in a way i don't need. I really have trouble with this conflict (jfc i'm even using bullshit euphemisms. ok war) in particular and I'm not quite sure how yet. Or if I ever have been.

I do always think it's really important to not have any snap judgements other than...well, the obvious (killing mass amounts of people is pretty much the lowest point imaginable. I think.). But it really is vastly complex with so many root issues - fk, 30 (um more than 30) years ago i was taking classes on this conflict in university. Sigh. As a staunch athiest who has morphed from "religion is fine but silly" to my current "religion is the worst poison humanity has ever created" I tend to get knee-jerky with religious conflicts but obviouslyobviously there is so much more.

...anyone care to weigh in on anything in here...:

https://www.hamiltonnolan.com/p/retire- ... -terrorism

edit: meant to include this part which is sure to be spicy - don't mean to inflame at all - I'm always learning. I really would like to hear what you guys think...

In an interview with CNN yesterday, Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, a leader of the Palestinian National Initiative, said this: “We have lived all our lives under occupation. My father lived under occupation. My daughter is living under occupation. We want a time, when we, the Palestinians will be free. Hamas was not there thirty years or forty years ago. But before that, the P.L.O. was described as terrorists. Any Palestinian who struggles for his rights, or for freedom, is described as ‘terrorist.’ And the question here, ‘Do we have the right to struggle for freedom? Do we have the right to struggle for real democracy? Do we have the right to have normal democratic elections, which unfortunately Israel and the United States don’t support?’ I think we are entitled to that. But the unfortunate thing, if we struggle in a military form, we are terrorists. If we struggle in a nonviolent way, we are described as violent. If we even resist with words, we are described as provocateurs. If you support Palestinians and you are a foreigner, they describe you as ‘Anti-Semite.’ And if you are a Jewish person—and there are many—who supports the Palestinian cause, they call him ‘self-hating Jew.’ This should end. It doesn’t make sense.”

It doesn’t make sense. Rarely do we get such a good opportunity for addition by subtraction as we have here. No more “terrorism.” No more “terrorist.” No more “terror,” or wars that are allegedly being fought against it. Describe things as they are, and how they came to be. A little less laziness can do a lot of good.

Interesting article, thought provoking, though I disagree with the idea that we should never use the term terrorist. Some acts ARE terrorism. I wrote about this yesterday about someone else's post, but it didn't post. Anyways, this article also reminds me of a letter to the editor my childhood friend submitted to the local paper after 9/11. He was living abroad, and experienced 9/11 through foreign media (not sure if it was South Korea or Thailand at that time). Anyways, my father clipped the paper and mailed it with a note saying, "look at what your asshole buddy wrote." Basically defended the 9/11 terrorists and blaming US foreign policy for the attacks and using a great quote, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." He was upset at the American reaction to 9/11, assuming we are the good guys in the world.

I do agree that the press never should have accepted and used the Bush admin's term "War on Terror." Drove me nuts at the time, as you can't fight a war against an idea, and bombing the crap out of a country is just going to create more people willing to take up arms against you. Both the term and the concept were bad ideas. I do get the authors point that using the term terrorism implies one side is bad and one is good. If you were to read the British media during the American Revolution, I'm sure they depicted the Continental Army as terrorist because they didn't follow the rules of War stand in straight lines and shoot, but instead hid behind trees and fought dirty. If you are the weaker power in a war, you can't fight clean. Kind of like in Vietnam. But to me, terrorism is different than sneak attacks on military. I'm too lazy to look up the definition, but it's something to the effect of committing acts of violence to create fear in order to bring about political change. Killing civilians at a concert is an act of terrorism, regardless of whether or not the actors have a just political cause.

[The Sybian]

Also, I thought Jared Kushner solved the Middle East.

[Steve of phpBB]

If you were to read the British media during the American Revolution, I'm sure they depicted the Continental Army as terrorist ...

Didn't the British refer to the Israelis fighting for an independent Jewish state before 1948 as terrorists? I think Menachem Begin, who was Israel's Prime Minister during some high-profile PLO attacks, had been known as a terrorist.

[The Sybian]

If you were to read the British media during the American Revolution, I'm sure they depicted the Continental Army as terrorist ...

Didn't the British refer to the Israelis fighting for an independent Jewish state before 1948 as terrorists? I think Menachem Begin, who was Israel's Prime Minister during some high-profile PLO attacks, had been known as a terrorist.

So we agree, the problem is British! I'm not aware of that, but not surprised. And jokes aside, I do blame the British for a lot of the Israel/Palestine problems. They promised the same land to both groups and created the land dispute and one-state system. And I know conflicts exists for centuries prior.