And there advice (while most likely very expensive) is really, really bad.
Bolsonaro will probably never set foot in Brazil again.
Moderators: Shirley, Sabo, brian, rass, DaveInSeattle
mister d wrote:Couldn't have pegged me better.
EnochRoot wrote:I mean, whatever. Johnnie's all hot cuz I ride him.
There were clips of him walking around Publix a week or so ago.
As one does...govmentchedda wrote: ↑Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:10 amThere were clips of him walking around Publix a week or so ago.
Fascist dictators, they're just like us!
mister d wrote:Couldn't have pegged me better.
EnochRoot wrote:I mean, whatever. Johnnie's all hot cuz I ride him.
Helps that Lula was already inaugurated. If Biden had been inaugurated before January 6, he could’ve been calling out the National Guard instead of Trump refusing to do so.
Yeah that’s just one of the dozens of tragedies of this. Bellicosity by Israel is only so effective to a point and without a carrot to go with the stick….
If this attack is as big as currently reported, that’d be hard to imagine. Humongous risk and not much upside, IMO.
From my perspective, Israel exercises a brutal, extreme right occupation of Palestine.L-Jam3 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:22 pm I wasn’t trying to suggest anything. I frankly don’t understand the problem as much as I feel I should, but from what I can gather both sides have valid arguments, and neither side is dealing with anything close to clean hands in their actions. It’s just a horribly unfortunate situation, and the religious aspects of it seem like this will never end.
Indeed.BeckyHammon’s hoodie wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:06 pm Malcolm X, chickens coming home to roost, things of that nature.
For sure.EnochRoot wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:53 amFrom my perspective, Israel exercises a brutal, extreme right occupation of Palestine.L-Jam3 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:22 pm I wasn’t trying to suggest anything. I frankly don’t understand the problem as much as I feel I should, but from what I can gather both sides have valid arguments, and neither side is dealing with anything close to clean hands in their actions. It’s just a horribly unfortunate situation, and the religious aspects of it seem like this will never end.
Extrapolate my point though. Why expect a measured response when your oppressor routinely torments you with its boot on your neck?Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:47 pmFor sure.EnochRoot wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:53 amFrom my perspective, Israel exercises a brutal, extreme right occupation of Palestine.L-Jam3 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:22 pm I wasn’t trying to suggest anything. I frankly don’t understand the problem as much as I feel I should, but from what I can gather both sides have valid arguments, and neither side is dealing with anything close to clean hands in their actions. It’s just a horribly unfortunate situation, and the religious aspects of it seem like this will never end.
But I don’t see how murdering a bunch of Israeli teens will stop that, or make it end any sooner. It’ll just lead to more death and oppression for the Palestinians.
The attack is understandable. Just, IMO, not justifiable in a moral sense.EnochRoot wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:08 pmExtrapolate my point though. Why expect a measured response when your oppressor routinely torments you with its boot on your neck?Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:47 pmFor sure.EnochRoot wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:53 amFrom my perspective, Israel exercises a brutal, extreme right occupation of Palestine.L-Jam3 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:22 pm I wasn’t trying to suggest anything. I frankly don’t understand the problem as much as I feel I should, but from what I can gather both sides have valid arguments, and neither side is dealing with anything close to clean hands in their actions. It’s just a horribly unfortunate situation, and the religious aspects of it seem like this will never end.
But I don’t see how murdering a bunch of Israeli teens will stop that, or make it end any sooner. It’ll just lead to more death and oppression for the Palestinians.
Set aside for the moment the fact that Benjamin Netanyahu is the king of stochastic terror. The fact there's a sentiment out there that suggests the plight of the Palestinians has 'worn out its welcome' on the global stage is why they might go to such extreme measures.
No offense, but this is crap. You (we) lack the proper perspective to pass judgement on a slow motion train wreck that was built specifically to crush the will of a displaced people.Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 10:24 pmThe attack is understandable. Just, IMO, not justifiable in a moral sense.EnochRoot wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:08 pmExtrapolate my point though. Why expect a measured response when your oppressor routinely torments you with its boot on your neck?Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:47 pmFor sure.EnochRoot wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:53 amFrom my perspective, Israel exercises a brutal, extreme right occupation of Palestine.L-Jam3 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:22 pm I wasn’t trying to suggest anything. I frankly don’t understand the problem as much as I feel I should, but from what I can gather both sides have valid arguments, and neither side is dealing with anything close to clean hands in their actions. It’s just a horribly unfortunate situation, and the religious aspects of it seem like this will never end.
But I don’t see how murdering a bunch of Israeli teens will stop that, or make it end any sooner. It’ll just lead to more death and oppression for the Palestinians.
My only contribution in this discussion will be to echo these sentiments.Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:07 pm Eh, I'm pretty sure I have enough perspective to decide that it's immoral to deliberately kill hundreds of people, and instigate actions that will kill thousands more, just to make a point.
Non-violent protest with fringe violence making the unspoken point of “this could be what comes next” was very effective in the 20th century. Sadly I don’t know if it would move the needle these days. The Israeli people sure as shit don’t seem to care about the plight of the people their government is persecuting.Pruitt IV wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 5:27 pmMy only contribution in this discussion will be to echo these sentiments.Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:07 pm Eh, I'm pretty sure I have enough perspective to decide that it's immoral to deliberately kill hundreds of people, and instigate actions that will kill thousands more, just to make a point.
I think violence can be an answer sometimes. But there’s different types and degrees of violence. If Hamas limited its attacks to an IDF base, that could theoretically be justifiable. But this weekend’s murder spree was basically another 9/11. It wasn’t ok on 9/11 and it’s not okay now.BeckyHammon’s hoodie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:31 pmNon-violent protest with fringe violence making the unspoken point of “this could be what comes next” was very effective in the 20th century. Sadly I don’t know if it would move the needle these days. The Israeli people sure as shit don’t seem to care about the plight of the people their government is persecuting.Pruitt IV wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 5:27 pmMy only contribution in this discussion will be to echo these sentiments.Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:07 pm Eh, I'm pretty sure I have enough perspective to decide that it's immoral to deliberately kill hundreds of people, and instigate actions that will kill thousands more, just to make a point.
As a general statement separated from this cock-up I’m going to throw a huge “fuck that” to anyone who wants to espouse anything along the lines of “violence is never the answer”. Sometimes it’s the ONLY answer.
Seconded, although I’ve written and deleted 20 posts on this thread since yesterday.Pruitt IV wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 5:27 pmMy only contribution in this discussion will be to echo these sentiments.Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:07 pm Eh, I'm pretty sure I have enough perspective to decide that it's immoral to deliberately kill hundreds of people, and instigate actions that will kill thousands more, just to make a point.
In an interview with CNN yesterday, Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, a leader of the Palestinian National Initiative, said this: “We have lived all our lives under occupation. My father lived under occupation. My daughter is living under occupation. We want a time, when we, the Palestinians will be free. Hamas was not there thirty years or forty years ago. But before that, the P.L.O. was described as terrorists. Any Palestinian who struggles for his rights, or for freedom, is described as ‘terrorist.’ And the question here, ‘Do we have the right to struggle for freedom? Do we have the right to struggle for real democracy? Do we have the right to have normal democratic elections, which unfortunately Israel and the United States don’t support?’ I think we are entitled to that. But the unfortunate thing, if we struggle in a military form, we are terrorists. If we struggle in a nonviolent way, we are described as violent. If we even resist with words, we are described as provocateurs. If you support Palestinians and you are a foreigner, they describe you as ‘Anti-Semite.’ And if you are a Jewish person—and there are many—who supports the Palestinian cause, they call him ‘self-hating Jew.’ This should end. It doesn’t make sense.”
It doesn’t make sense. Rarely do we get such a good opportunity for addition by subtraction as we have here. No more “terrorism.” No more “terrorist.” No more “terror,” or wars that are allegedly being fought against it. Describe things as they are, and how they came to be. A little less laziness can do a lot of good.
Interesting article, thought provoking, though I disagree with the idea that we should never use the term terrorist. Some acts ARE terrorism. I wrote about this yesterday about someone else's post, but it didn't post. Anyways, this article also reminds me of a letter to the editor my childhood friend submitted to the local paper after 9/11. He was living abroad, and experienced 9/11 through foreign media (not sure if it was South Korea or Thailand at that time). Anyways, my father clipped the paper and mailed it with a note saying, "look at what your asshole buddy wrote." Basically defended the 9/11 terrorists and blaming US foreign policy for the attacks and using a great quote, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." He was upset at the American reaction to 9/11, assuming we are the good guys in the world.MaxWebster wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:22 am I truly respect and even crave everyone's opinions in here - i've been intentionally not watching a second of news because (24/7 news very literally gives me some big triggers...) i'm sure it'll be dramatized/opinionated in a way i don't need. I really have trouble with this conflict (jfc i'm even using bullshit euphemisms. ok war) in particular and I'm not quite sure how yet. Or if I ever have been.
I do always think it's really important to not have any snap judgements other than...well, the obvious (killing mass amounts of people is pretty much the lowest point imaginable. I think.). But it really is vastly complex with so many root issues - fk, 30 (um more than 30) years ago i was taking classes on this conflict in university. Sigh. As a staunch athiest who has morphed from "religion is fine but silly" to my current "religion is the worst poison humanity has ever created" I tend to get knee-jerky with religious conflicts but obviouslyobviously there is so much more.
...anyone care to weigh in on anything in here...:
https://www.hamiltonnolan.com/p/retire- ... -terrorism
edit: meant to include this part which is sure to be spicy - don't mean to inflame at all - I'm always learning. I really would like to hear what you guys think...
In an interview with CNN yesterday, Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, a leader of the Palestinian National Initiative, said this: “We have lived all our lives under occupation. My father lived under occupation. My daughter is living under occupation. We want a time, when we, the Palestinians will be free. Hamas was not there thirty years or forty years ago. But before that, the P.L.O. was described as terrorists. Any Palestinian who struggles for his rights, or for freedom, is described as ‘terrorist.’ And the question here, ‘Do we have the right to struggle for freedom? Do we have the right to struggle for real democracy? Do we have the right to have normal democratic elections, which unfortunately Israel and the United States don’t support?’ I think we are entitled to that. But the unfortunate thing, if we struggle in a military form, we are terrorists. If we struggle in a nonviolent way, we are described as violent. If we even resist with words, we are described as provocateurs. If you support Palestinians and you are a foreigner, they describe you as ‘Anti-Semite.’ And if you are a Jewish person—and there are many—who supports the Palestinian cause, they call him ‘self-hating Jew.’ This should end. It doesn’t make sense.”
It doesn’t make sense. Rarely do we get such a good opportunity for addition by subtraction as we have here. No more “terrorism.” No more “terrorist.” No more “terror,” or wars that are allegedly being fought against it. Describe things as they are, and how they came to be. A little less laziness can do a lot of good.
Didn't the British refer to the Israelis fighting for an independent Jewish state before 1948 as terrorists? I think Menachem Begin, who was Israel's Prime Minister during some high-profile PLO attacks, had been known as a terrorist.The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:10 pmIf you were to read the British media during the American Revolution, I'm sure they depicted the Continental Army as terrorist ...
So we agree, the problem is British! I'm not aware of that, but not surprised. And jokes aside, I do blame the British for a lot of the Israel/Palestine problems. They promised the same land to both groups and created the land dispute and one-state system. And I know conflicts exists for centuries prior.Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:51 pmDidn't the British refer to the Israelis fighting for an independent Jewish state before 1948 as terrorists? I think Menachem Begin, who was Israel's Prime Minister during some high-profile PLO attacks, had been known as a terrorist.The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:10 pmIf you were to read the British media during the American Revolution, I'm sure they depicted the Continental Army as terrorist ...