The Swamp

Joe K wrote:

duff wrote:Curious to how many of those offended by these statues being torn down were cheering when the statue of Saddam Hussein was torn down or when those of Lenin and Stalin were torn down. And those statues were built while those people were in power, not after they lost a war.

Not only that, but they were in many cases built decades after the war ended, in connection with efforts to further subjugate and terrorize black communities.

Correct. The vast majority of these were placed in the 1920s deep in the heart of Jim Crow era.

Rex wrote:What are you talking about? I was in Seattle last month, the statue of Lenin is still there.

Ha, I bet if that got torn down all the hipsters would starbucks with flannel shirts artisan vinyl glasses they like riding bikes and beard vegan ghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

The best part about the Lenin statue is that while it's very publicly displayed, it's privately owned.

Shirley wrote:

tennbengal wrote:I've been displeased with the new Baltimore mayor Catherine Pugh since she took office, but, fuck if she didn't mayor like a legend last night - all four confederate /white supremacist statues in the city quickly and quietly removed overnight. No muss, no fuss. City is better for that. Good on her.

That's great news. One (of the few) optimistic thought I had this past weekend is that maybe this would finally be the time when many southern (and non-southern) cities would realize that it's way past time to remove their Confederate monuments. Baltimore, Durham (by the people, but still), and Gainesville so far that I know of. Let's keep it going. It should be very clear now what keeping those monuments in your parks and outside your government buildings means.

Re: Gainesville, it looks like the permit for Spencer to speak at UF was not allowed. Also, one of the guys arrested in Charlottesville for carrying a concealed weapon was from somewhere around here. Upon his arrest, his employer found out about his Nazi postings on the internet and fired him.

One thing I found interesting, which I did not previously know, is that Robert E. Lee himself opposed the erection of confederate monuments after the war.

“I think it wiser,” the retired military leader wrote about a proposed Gettysburg memorial in 1869, “…not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”

From my limited studies on this subject, I find it quite odd that they choose Lee as the hero of the South. He actually has a fascinating role in post war reconstruction and in general was against Southern Nationalism.

Lee was revered for his military service, and how he carried himself as a soldier/general, which is why he was pardoned by Andrew Johnson. Lee was also crucial to Reconstruction, which is why he has respect from both sides, as he helped in the healing of the nation. It should also be noted that part of his punishment for his involvement in the war was the seizure of his Virginia home - Arlington House - which would become Arlington National Cemetery. Lee is more of a hero in the deep south than the state where his home was.

Did Lee start a war to separate The US from the states? Was Lee an active proponent of slavery? It's unclear, but in general he was a fighting out of nationalism rather than pro slavery. He was definitely racist and thoughts blacks were unintelligent though he also started schools for blacks. He also was in favor of sending them all back to Africa.

Johnnie wrote:
Nothing yet from my service. Though the former Secretary of the Air Force said he needs to tone down his testosterone.

Sec'y of the Air Force is travelling in the Middle East (according to today's Thomas Friedman column in the NY Times)

Rex wrote:

duff wrote:Curious to how many of those offended by these statues being torn down were cheering when the statue of Saddam Hussein was torn down or when those of Lenin and Stalin were torn down. And those statues were built while those people were in power, not after they lost a war.

What are you talking about? I was in Seattle last month, the statue of Lenin is still there.

First, thanks for saying hello when you were here.

Second, this story popped up in my news feed this morning: Time to pull down Seattle’s Lenin statue? Silicon Valley venture capitalist takes on relic’s place in wake of Charlottesville tragedy

But like much of Seattle, the self-proclaimed “Center of the Universe” isn’t entirely what it used to be. Coffee shops, small restaurants, a “working” rocket, a giant troll and the left-leaning counter-culture now share space with a good chunk of Seattle’s tech scene. Offices for companies big and small line the streets near the Ship Canal and Burke-Gilman Trail. Google, Adobe, Tableau, Outreach, Pixvana and GeekWire, among others, are part of the hub of activity.

Standing in the middle of it all is a statue that has always done its job of attracting second looks. And now, in the wake of the tragedy in Charlottesville, Va., and a statue’s place in clashes that occurred there last weekend, a well-known Silicon Valley venture capitalist is drawing new attention to Seattle’s often controversial sculpture, suggesting that it should be removed.

The 16-foot tall bronze sculpture of Russian Communist revolutionary leader Vladimir Lenin has stood in Fremont since 1995. According to the Fremont website, it was acquired by an American veteran named Lewis Carpenter who was teaching in Poprad, Slovakia.

Yeah, that should probably be taken down too.

govmentchedda wrote:

Shirley wrote:

tennbengal wrote:I've been displeased with the new Baltimore mayor Catherine Pugh since she took office, but, fuck if she didn't mayor like a legend last night - all four confederate /white supremacist statues in the city quickly and quietly removed overnight. No muss, no fuss. City is better for that. Good on her.

That's great news. One (of the few) optimistic thought I had this past weekend is that maybe this would finally be the time when many southern (and non-southern) cities would realize that it's way past time to remove their Confederate monuments. Baltimore, Durham (by the people, but still), and Gainesville so far that I know of. Let's keep it going. It should be very clear now what keeping those monuments in your parks and outside your government buildings means.

Re: Gainesville, it looks like the permit for Spencer to speak at UF was not allowed. Also, one of the guys arrested in Charlottesville for carrying a concealed weapon was from somewhere around here. Upon his arrest, his employer found out about his Nazi postings on the internet and fired him.

News of a second Floridian being fired for attending the Charlottesville rally in today's Alligator (UF affiliated newspaper).

Giff wrote:Yeah, that should probably be taken down too.

One: Its on private property, and Two: Its for sale. So if the Silicon Valley Tech Bros really wants it taken down, he can pony up the $250K and its all his to do with as he wants.

DaveInSeattle wrote:

Giff wrote:Yeah, that should probably be taken down too.

One: Its on private property, and Two: Its for sale. So if the Silicon Valley Tech Bros really wants it taken down, he can pony up the $250K and its all his to do with as he wants.

I'll agree that there's a distinction that should be made between memorials on public and private property.

That said...there's a public interest in making sure that any memorials to any causes even on private property aren't meant to cause harm to others. I'm sure you wouldn't be defending a statue of a swastika on private property. I'm not saying a statue of Lenin is equivalent to that, just saying "it's on private property" doesn't necessary make it right/untouchable. Personally, I can see an argument for why it should be removed, but it's not the kind of thing I (personally) would lose any sleep over.

Bah. May have been a less fun reason for that. NM

brian wrote:I'm sure you wouldn't be defending a statue of a swastika on private property.

I would (at least the legal right to do it).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyeTj002DCo

Holy fuck, this is their leader? A bunch of college students yelled at them, and he is reduced to a snivelling twerp?

Steve of phpBB wrote:

brian wrote:I'm sure you wouldn't be defending a statue of a swastika on private property.

I would (at least the legal right to do it).

It's an interesting argument I suppose. I don't like the state deciding what symbols are verboten enough to insist they be removed from private property, because I grasp the slippery slope argument is relevant. At the same time, I do think certain symbols are harmful enough that they present a public good if they are banned. Of all places, I think Germany manages to walk this line pretty well.

Steve of phpBB wrote:

brian wrote:I'm sure you wouldn't be defending a statue of a swastika on private property.

I would (at least the legal right to do it).

What if it was a huge statue dick going into a huge statue mouth?

That video is wonderful. Makes me feel so much better about how weak these fuckers are when confronted by people that have just had enough to their shit.

Sucks for the shoe to be on the other foot huh?

mister d wrote:

Steve of phpBB wrote:

brian wrote:I'm sure you wouldn't be defending a statue of a swastika on private property.

I would (at least the legal right to do it).

What if it was a huge statue dick going into a huge statue mouth?

Depends on where the statue is, I think.

But a swastika is political speech. Abhorrent political speech, but still. Pretty core First Amendment.

BSF21 wrote:That video is wonderful. Makes me feel so much better about how weak these fuckers are when confronted by people that have just had enough to their shit.

Sucks for the shoe to be on the other foot huh?

Ich bin ein großes verdammtes Baby!

Steve of phpBB wrote:

mister d wrote:

Steve of phpBB wrote:

brian wrote:I'm sure you wouldn't be defending a statue of a swastika on private property.

I would (at least the legal right to do it).

What if it was a huge statue dick going into a huge statue mouth?

Depends on where the statue is, I think.

But a swastika is political speech. Abhorrent political speech, but still. Pretty core First Amendment.

I agree with Steve. And since our federal and state government are GOP-dominated, any precedent allowing the government to ban hate speech or threatening poltical speech would likely result in attempts to criminalize groups like Black Lives Matter or more radical anti-war or eco-protestors.

BSF21 wrote:That video is wonderful. Makes me feel so much better about how weak these fuckers are when confronted by people that have just had enough to their shit.

Sucks for the shoe to be on the other foot huh?

They tend to be the fluffiest of snowflakes.

DaveInSeattle wrote:

Johnnie wrote:
Nothing yet from my service. Though the former Secretary of the Air Force said he needs to tone down his testosterone.

Sec'y of the Air Force is travelling in the Middle East (according to today's Thomas Friedman column in the NY Times)

Ah. His PR team must be handling his Twitter.

Also, he's Jewish. (Goldfein) He'll have something to say.

The Sybian wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyeTj002DCo

Holy fuck, this is their leader? A bunch of college students yelled at them, and he is reduced to a snivelling twerp?

Haaaaaa. Haaaaaa.

Watch the Vice video I posted. He was Billy fucking Badass with his 3 pistols, AR, and AK. Now he's just a fucking crybaby.

I hope he gets prank called relentlessly.

The Sybian wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyeTj002DCo

Holy fuck, this is their leader? A bunch of college students yelled at them, and he is reduced to a snivelling twerp?

No, Donny, these men are cowards.

I'm not going to trot this out again, but the vast, vast majority of people we are talking about here are not actually looking for a fight, just attention. Not everyone--obviously there are Dylann Roofs and the jackass from this weekend, but most of these people are looking to provoke a war that they won't fight in.

Rex wrote:

The Sybian wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyeTj002DCo

Holy fuck, this is their leader? A bunch of college students yelled at them, and he is reduced to a snivelling twerp?

No, Donny, these men are cowards.

I'm not going to trot this out again, but the vast, vast majority of people we are talking about here are not actually looking for a fight, just attention. Not everyone--obviously there are Dylann Roofs and the jackass from this weekend, but most of these people are looking to provoke a war that they won't fight in.

I'd wager that most of these dudes get their initial indoctrination from MRA forums, which is basically guys who never get laid.

Johnnie wrote:

The Sybian wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyeTj002DCo

Holy fuck, this is their leader? A bunch of college students yelled at them, and he is reduced to a snivelling twerp?

Haaaaaa. Haaaaaa.

Watch the Vice video I posted. He was Billy fucking Badass with his 3 pistols, AR, and AK. Now he's just a fucking crybaby.

I hope he gets prank called relentlessly.

While Sybian's comments tipped off what's in the video, I saw that video as a possible attempt to curry sympathy with "undecideds". It's not the best term to describe them, but you know who - people who watch Fox News, like Trump, and aren't really sure about the "alt-right" are the target audience here.

The clip was full of acts like pleading that they weren't trying to start anything and playing the victim card to gain sympathy. He gives out his number under the guise of being contacted by the authorities, but if he does get prank called/signed up for automated texts, he can plead a case about how horrible the other side is by "harassing" him when he was trying to own up for his actions (even admitting that he's done things, coming clean to portray himself as a sympathetic person). To me, the mention of being cool and unafraid when he has his gun on him is a clear attempt to draw NRA/people who are pro-gun to their side, especially because the other side are "liberals".

I fully agree that their aim is to gain attention and assert their dominance through trying to instill fear, but that won't act unless the numbers are in their favor and a lot of their moves are empty threats. I understand that the desire is there to point fingers and laugh at how pathetic he seems, but be wary. They've been portraying themselves as victims here and, following Trump's comments, a bowl of freshly-cut onions out of sight of a shaky handheld video could create sympathy. After all, the attention they get spreads their message and their message is aimed as a recruiting tool.

This is brilliant.

http://twitter.com/CleveJones1/status/8 ... 0982188032

Sabo wrote:This is brilliant.

http://twitter.com/CleveJones1/status/8 ... 0982188032

This is the best answer. Lisa Lampanelli did something like this a few years ago when Westboro announced they were going to protest her show. She donated $1,000 for every protester who showed. I think Sarah Silverman did something similar.

DaveInSeattle wrote:First, thanks for saying hello when you were here.

Sorry about that. I went up for the Yankees weekend series, something I will definitely do again!

The Sybian wrote:This is the best answer. Lisa Lampanelli did something like this a few years ago when Westboro announced they were going to protest her show. She donated $1,000 for every protester who showed. I think Sarah Silverman did something similar.

Indeed--this is how you do it!

So the right wing asshole Trump retweeted, Jack Posobiec, is an Intel Officer in the Navy Reserve. His clearance has been pulled and they've detailed him to pecker checker duty.

https://twitter.com/AdamWeinstein/statu ... 4586645504

Fantastic!

https://twitter.com/addisonryan/status/ ... 5190813696

NH man...

Awesome racial justice move in Durham from people today, civil disobedience at its best:

https://twitter.com/AuburnSeminary/stat ... 8210767873

That's awesome. Like the scene in In & Out where everyone in the auditorium is gay.

Guaran-goddamn-teed that Chris Cantwell was abused/molested as a child. His mental development is completely off.

Johnnie wrote:Guaran-goddamn-teed that Chris Cantwell was abused/molested as a child. His mental development is completely off.

Crazy thing is that my first reaction was to scold you for implying that all victims of pedophilia are racists!

And that gentlemen, is a small taste of what it is like to think like a Canadian.

I wonder what some 'Muricans think about Cantwell shooting the American flag in that Colbert clip.

And one more thing about his teary-eyed video clip that makes me think it is not genuine: If he is not scared to go to jail ("won't be the first time") and feels the need to turn himself in (or at least find out if he should), why would he give out his number and ask law enforcement to contact him instead of just going in to the police station? Can't get a ride to the front of the station and walk in? Or afraid of getting attacked by liberals right in front of the police station?

Anyway, Jim Jefferies did a great job in the first act of his show Tuesday night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GxQR6ssap4

Don't these guys espouse a love of America first? Yet the statues that are in dispute are of traitors who tried to destroy the country.

Help me understand this.