The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

[mister d]

Not Booker. Something is off with Booker. And not that thing.

[L-Jam3]

Because of the gay rumors? He could certainly play up the college football player angle, the black angle, and the intelligent lawyer angle. I think that would a lot of support.

[mister d]

That's the "not that thing". My mom and I have talked about this and we can't figure out what it is, but there's something just off.

[Joe K]

Booker is decidedly not “full left.” He’s been a longtime favorite of Wall Street and Big Pharma. The one time I’ve seen Booker show genuine passion is back in 2012 when he went on some TV news show and yelled at Obama for being unfair to Romney by “demonizing private equity”

ETA:

[The Sybian]

Booker is decidedly not “full left.” He’s been a longtime favorite of Wall Street and Big Pharma. The one time I’ve seen Booker show genuine passion is back in 2012 when he went on some TV news show and yelled at Obama for being unfair to Romney by “demonizing private equity”

The hard Left hates Booker, because he caved to big money and is more Center, IMO. Sad that Harris is considered Far Left, because she seems really reasonable.

I'm with Delaware, I feel like Booker is hiding something, and I don't mean his sexuality. I have no opinion on that, and don't care . I've heard the rumors for years, and always avoided reading/listening to anything about it, because I don't give a fuck, beyond being sad that if he is gay he feels he needs to hide it. Booker has seemingly groomed his perfect image with too much effort. It's like he is trying too hard to overcompensate. I hope I'm wrong, I really want to like him, and I think his personality and humble background could gain strong support.

[govmentchedda]

Not Booker. Something is off with Booker. And not that thing.

He's been to the sunken place?

[degenerasian]

For 2020, the Democrats should just go full-left and put up someone like Kamala Harris or Cory Booker. They're never going to reach the 30% of America who would follow Trump to the gates of Hell, so just put up someone who will get the Democrats out there, and hopefully pull in a little more of the middle to flip the key states. If they weren't the most disorganized party in America since the fucking Donners this would be obvious.

I'll repeat. Healthcare is THE full-left issue they need to take. Sanders is trying to do this but there is resistance. The Environment would be next. Jobs/Outsourcing would be third. Go full left which supports unions and fights free trade.

I'm not sure immigration is a pure right/left issue, not one that would play well with the 30% in the middle that you're trying to get.

[duff]

I would love to see Harris on the ticket. And looking past 2020, hopefully Mayor Pete of South Bend has garnered enough recognition to get on the national ticket.

[Steve of phpBB]

And yet, since the Dems made the big "go left" move by shutting down the government over DACA, their once-massive lead over the Republicans in the generic congressional ballot poll has almost entirely disappeared.

If the Dems go really really hard left, they could probably get a solid 40 percent of the vote.

[GoodKarma]

I was a fan of Booker until his Dem convention speech in 2016...he sounded like a bad high school football coach trying to motivate his team down 59-3 at the half. I think he was trying to repeat the Obama playbook move of a rousing convention speech to get some press but failed miserably in the execution.

[Joe K]

And yet, since the Dems made the big "go left" move by shutting down the government over DACA, their once-massive lead over the Republicans in the generic congressional ballot poll has almost entirely disappeared.

If the Dems go really really hard left, they could probably get a solid 40 percent of the vote.

Do you think Obama was perceived by voters as a liberal candidate? Because, whether he actually was a true liberal, I certainly think he was perceived that way. And he was a hell of a lot better at winning elections than Dems who go out of their way to be centrists. Another data point is that Sanders and Warren consistently fare better in public approval polls than the party as a whole. It’s not the 1980s anymore; Democrats can win elections without sucking up to Reagan or running as GOP Lite!

[Steve of phpBB]

And yet, since the Dems made the big "go left" move by shutting down the government over DACA, their once-massive lead over the Republicans in the generic congressional ballot poll has almost entirely disappeared.

If the Dems go really really hard left, they could probably get a solid 40 percent of the vote.

Do you think Obama was perceived by voters as a liberal candidate? Because, whether he actually was a true liberal, I certainly think he was perceived that way. And he was a hell of a lot better at winning elections than Dems who go out of their way to be centrists. Another data point is that Sanders and Warren consistently fare better in public approval polls than the party as a whole. It’s not the 1980s anymore; Democrats can win elections without sucking up to Reagan or running as GOP Lite!

He was perceived as less liberal than Sanders or Elizabeth Warren.

How many national elections have the Democrats won without sucking up to Reagan or running as GOP lite?

Remember, those of us on the Swamp and who follow liberal sources on Twitter are living in a bubble. The people we read and talk to and argue with are not representative of the American public.

[Nonlinear FC]

As someone that worked for the Democratic Leadership Council for 2 separate stints (90s and 00s), I fully endorse what JoeK just wrote. There was a time and a place for the DLC, in my opinion, but that time has passed (you'll note they shuddered their doors not all that long ago.)

There are certainly parts of the country where a centrist approach is appropriate and probably necessary to win elections. But, nationally? Nope. Not anymore.

[Nonlinear FC]

And yet, since the Dems made the big "go left" move by shutting down the government over DACA, their once-massive lead over the Republicans in the generic congressional ballot poll has almost entirely disappeared.

If the Dems go really really hard left, they could probably get a solid 40 percent of the vote.

Do you think Obama was perceived by voters as a liberal candidate? Because, whether he actually was a true liberal, I certainly think he was perceived that way. And he was a hell of a lot better at winning elections than Dems who go out of their way to be centrists. Another data point is that Sanders and Warren consistently fare better in public approval polls than the party as a whole. It’s not the 1980s anymore; Democrats can win elections without sucking up to Reagan or running as GOP Lite!

He was perceived as less liberal than Sanders or Elizabeth Warren.

How many national elections have the Democrats won without sucking up to Reagan or running as GOP lite?

Remember, those of us on the Swamp and who follow liberal sources on Twitter are living in a bubble. The people we read and talk to and argue with are not representative of the American public.

Well, now, hold up. Let's remember the context of him winning both the nomination and the national election.

Obama thought the Iraq War was a bad idea and voted accordingly. He was not a fan of NAFTA (at least on the campaign trail). Most importantly, his signature policy issue was providing access to health care to all.

In the context of 2008, he was not a centrist.

[degenerasian]

And yet, since the Dems made the big "go left" move by shutting down the government over DACA, their once-massive lead over the Republicans in the generic congressional ballot poll has almost entirely disappeared.

If the Dems go really really hard left, they could probably get a solid 40 percent of the vote.

i stated above, I'm not sure immigration/DACA is a true right/left issue.

[Steve of phpBB]

i stated above, I'm not sure immigration/DACA is a true right/left issue.

Jeez, it is completely a left-right issue. The right feels like their white nation is darkening and wants to do everything to stop that, including kicking out and keeping out people who will darken it further. The left feels sympathy toward the dark folks and/or likes the idea of a diverse nation.

[Steve of phpBB]

Obama thought the Iraq War was a bad idea and voted accordingly.

Yes, but by 2008 that position was the vast majority position - also, didn't Obama say in a debate or something that he would send forces across the border into Pakistan if it was necessary to hunt terrorists? And didn't McCain criticize him for it? He wasn't exactly a dove.

He was not a fan of NAFTA (at least on the campaign trail). Most importantly, his signature policy issue was providing access to health care to all.

That is true. And he criticized Hillary's plan because it included an insurance mandate. And he promised that he wouldn't tax the middle class to pay for getting health care to all.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it sure seemed to be that Obama was less liberal in 2008 than Hillary or Bernie in 2016, or Elizabeth Warren now.

[mister d]

In Degen's defense, immigration from Italy wouldn't be a left/right issue.

[brian]

No discussion about this nothingburger of a memo?

[L-Jam3]

This memo isn't changing anyone's opinion.

The real question I have is if Fredo fires Rosenstien and then installs a lackey to fire Mueller... what is actually stopping him from that? What recourse is there? Either Constitutionally or Practically? Other than a potential bloodbath in November, what is stopping him? He just wants to watch the world burn anyway.

[brian]

This memo isn't changing anyone's opinion.

The real question I have is if Fredo fires Rosenstien and then installs a lackey to fire Mueller... what is actually stopping him from that? What recourse is there? Either Constitutionally or Practically? Other than a potential bloodbath in November, what is stopping him? He just wants to watch the world burn anyway.

Nothing. Public opinion has been the only thing stopping him so far, memo or not.

[L-Jam3]

He has even in his best polls an approval rating below 40%. He doesn't give a shit about public opinion. Or he doesn't believe it. Asking only half-joking, what is the breaking point for an assassination attempt?

[mister d]

He has even in his best polls an approval rating below 40%. He doesn't give a shit about public opinion. Or he doesn't believe it. Asking only half-joking, what is the breaking point for an assassination attempt?

When they called Pennsylvania?

[sancarlos]

Asking only half-joking, what is the breaking point for an assassination attempt?

The gun nuts all support him.

[brian]

Trump doesn't care about this, but the real risk is that the GOP leadership carrying water for Trump could doom it to permanent irrelevance as a national party if there are bombshells yet to come (either from Mueller or from media reports or from a House investigation if the Democrats take back the House in 2018). Trump can't do anything to stop a House investigation if the Democrats are the majority party. And they'd conveniently have had most of their work already done for them by Mueller.

So if Trump were smart (he's not) and listening to advice from his lawyers (he's not), he'd just let this thing ride out and hope for the best. Short of information turned up in the investigation on his financial dealings (depending how bad they are from bad to absolutely criminal). He's never going to get convicted in the Senate for an impeachment even if somehow enough votes were scraped up in the House.

And if the GOP had at least had the sense to step away from it (I'm not even talking about impeachment or anything -- just letting the investigation run it course) they wouldn't have gotten all the shrapnel they're in line to take. We've gone from Trump possibly conspiring with a foreign power to an entire American political party conspiring with a foreign power at this point.

That the American voters may not be likely to forget and forgive like they did 6 years after Watergate. Not in 2018, not in 2020. Not for quite some time if ever.

[EnochRoot]

Trump doesn't care about this, but the real risk is that the GOP leadership carrying water for Trump could doom it to permanent irrelevance as a national party if there are bombshells yet to come (either from Mueller or from media reports or from a House investigation if the Democrats take back the House in 2018). Trump can't do anything to stop a House investigation if the Democrats are the majority party. And they'd conveniently have had most of their work already done for them by Mueller.

So if Trump were smart (he's not) and listening to advice from his lawyers (he's not), he'd just let this thing ride out and hope for the best. And if the GOP had at least had the sense to step away from it (I'm not even talking about impeachment or anything -- just letting the investigation run it course) they wouldn't have gotten all the shrapnel they're in line to take. We've gone from Trump possibly conspiring with a foreign power to an entire American political party conspiring with a foreign power at this point.

That the American voters may not be likely to forget and forgive like they did 6 years after Watergate.

Stagflation / recession led to Reagan.

[mister d]

What percentage of voters would choose “R with Russia’s assistance” over D in an election?

[brian]

Sure, I get that. None of this happens in a vacuum. I hope the economy continues to do well, but the stock market is well overdue for a correction and that could result in even more layoffs. If the unemployment rate goes up in the next few months, 2018 could be an even worse bloodbath than people think. And even if it keeps chugging along past the midterms, it's doubtful the bull market is going to continue for another three years.

[brian]

What percentage of voters would choose “R with Russia’s assistance” over D in an election?

25 percent. Maybe.

(And even that's a ridiculous number, but that's where we are right now as a country. Like Bengal said, the GOP has taken four decades of indoctrinating their voters that theirs is the only vision of America that counts. It's less a political party than a cult at this point, but even people in cults can be deprogrammed.

[L-Jam3]

If you give them enough Flavor-Aid they get deprogrammed.

[brian]

If you give them enough Flavor-Aid they get deprogrammed.

Losing every presidential election for the next two decades might also do it.

[EnochRoot]

If you give them enough Flavor-Aid they get deprogrammed.

Losing every presidential election for the next two decades might also do it.

Well, they pretty much have already, except for that fucking archaic Electoral College...

[L-Jam3]

They lost the popular vote four out of the last five times, yet here we are. That''s a systemic issue, and it won't go away until the Dems start taking the fight back to them. Unfortunately, it's not in their nature.

[L-Jam3]

Again only half-joking, but what voter suppression tactics would work in lowering the power in Red states?

[DaveInSeattle]

Trump doesn't care about this, but the real risk is that the GOP leadership carrying water for Trump could doom it to permanent irrelevance as a national party if there are bombshells yet to come (either from Mueller or from media reports or from a House investigation if the Democrats take back the House in 2018). Trump can't do anything to stop a House investigation if the Democrats are the majority party. And they'd conveniently have had most of their work already done for them by Mueller.

So if Trump were smart (he's not) and listening to advice from his lawyers (he's not), he'd just let this thing ride out and hope for the best. And if the GOP had at least had the sense to step away from it (I'm not even talking about impeachment or anything -- just letting the investigation run it course) they wouldn't have gotten all the shrapnel they're in line to take. We've gone from Trump possibly conspiring with a foreign power to an entire American political party conspiring with a foreign power at this point.

That the American voters may not be likely to forget and forgive like they did 6 years after Watergate.

Stagflation / recession led to Reagan.

Stagflation/Recession/Iranian Hostage Crisis led to Reagan.

[brian]

Again only half-joking, but what voter suppression tactics would work in lowering the power in Red states?

Constitutional amendment denying the right to vote if you own a pickup truck.

[L-Jam3]

I wouldn't put it past Fredo to attempt a false flag attack if he's trailing in October 2020.

[brian]

Trump doesn't care about this, but the real risk is that the GOP leadership carrying water for Trump could doom it to permanent irrelevance as a national party if there are bombshells yet to come (either from Mueller or from media reports or from a House investigation if the Democrats take back the House in 2018). Trump can't do anything to stop a House investigation if the Democrats are the majority party. And they'd conveniently have had most of their work already done for them by Mueller.

So if Trump were smart (he's not) and listening to advice from his lawyers (he's not), he'd just let this thing ride out and hope for the best. And if the GOP had at least had the sense to step away from it (I'm not even talking about impeachment or anything -- just letting the investigation run it course) they wouldn't have gotten all the shrapnel they're in line to take. We've gone from Trump possibly conspiring with a foreign power to an entire American political party conspiring with a foreign power at this point.

That the American voters may not be likely to forget and forgive like they did 6 years after Watergate.

Stagflation / recession led to Reagan.

Stagflation/Recession/Iranian Hostage Crisis led to Reagan.

My whole point is that the Republican brand wasn't seriously tarnished by Watergate, so a few years later when the winds were blowing right, Reagan stepped in and had no trouble winning in 1980. If the Republicans in Congress then had committed the kind of obstruction of justice we're seeing here so that Nixon could run out the clock on his second term, maybe it's a different story? It very well could have been.

[EnochRoot]

Donald saw his shadow this morning. Nearly 3 more years of hell.

[EnochRoot]

Trump doesn't care about this, but the real risk is that the GOP leadership carrying water for Trump could doom it to permanent irrelevance as a national party if there are bombshells yet to come (either from Mueller or from media reports or from a House investigation if the Democrats take back the House in 2018). Trump can't do anything to stop a House investigation if the Democrats are the majority party. And they'd conveniently have had most of their work already done for them by Mueller.

So if Trump were smart (he's not) and listening to advice from his lawyers (he's not), he'd just let this thing ride out and hope for the best. And if the GOP had at least had the sense to step away from it (I'm not even talking about impeachment or anything -- just letting the investigation run it course) they wouldn't have gotten all the shrapnel they're in line to take. We've gone from Trump possibly conspiring with a foreign power to an entire American political party conspiring with a foreign power at this point.

That the American voters may not be likely to forget and forgive like they did 6 years after Watergate.

Stagflation / recession led to Reagan.

Stagflation/Recession/Iranian Hostage Crisis led to Reagan.

Yeah I meant to include the October Surprise in there too.