The Swamp

Anything is possible and assuming he enacts even modest democratic reforms (nothing that would see him removed from "office" but which would see sanctions lifted), North Korea could end up being a great economic success story, but the issue that North Korea has to face that China, Vietnam and Myanmar didn't is ethnic neighbors/relatives in a completely free and democratic society to its south. The reunification question will ALWAYS hang over Kim's head and he'll always have to be brutal to put down insurrections and calls from his people to reunify the two countries. That's why he has almost no cards to play as far as freeing the North Korean people.

Absolutely, that is the toughest part, having the same 'people' on the other side of the border. I'm hoping that somehow Kim just wants relief and slowly it turns into something. They are broke and cannot continue on this path.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:53 pm Absolutely, that is the toughest part, having the same 'people' on the other side of the border. I'm hoping that somehow Kim just wants relief and slowly it turns into something. They are broke and cannot continue on this path.

They've been broke for decades, but what incentive does Kim really have to improve the lot of his citizens? He lives like a 17th century French king while they starve and has for his entire life so unless he's somehow got a crisis of conscience about it now, which I strongly doubt, why would anything change from within?

brian wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:55 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:53 pm Absolutely, that is the toughest part, having the same 'people' on the other side of the border. I'm hoping that somehow Kim just wants relief and slowly it turns into something. They are broke and cannot continue on this path.

They've been broke for decades, but what incentive does Kim really have to improve the lot of his citizens? He lives like a 17th century French king while they starve and has for his entire life so unless he's somehow got a crisis of conscience about it now, which I strongly doubt, why would anything change from within?

I've heard that a few things have changed. Not certain but maybe it has played a role

1) China is not so friendly with North Korea anymore and no longer wants to prop them up. Get your shit sorted out yourself. China does not want to risk it's relationships with the US due to North Korea.

2) Kim may not be so ruthless. Yes he had to be ruthless to gain and retain power in that vacuum but he is foreign educated and does know more about the way of the world then his dad.

3) Kim's sister is also foreign educated and may have some influence. It is said that her trip to the Pyeongchang games and how well she was received was a real eye opener. She came back thinking, the south is so rich, it's amazing. We need to become like that somehow.

4) Kim's wife is a bit of an unknown but speculation is she is also pushing her husband towards reforms citing that the people are starving and more needs to be done.

So all this put together is really speculation but maybe, I hope, it can bring something different. Why did Kim meet with South Korea? Why now?

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:04 pm 2) Kim may not be so ruthless. Yes he had to be ruthless to gain and retain power in that vacuum but he is foreign educated and does know more about the way of the world then his dad.

He fed his uncle to dogs and had his brother poisoned in an airport, but in a worldly, sophisticated kind of way.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:04 pm
So all this put together is really speculation but maybe, I hope, it can bring something different. Why did Kim meet with South Korea? Why now?

Because jerking around the South and the west is something the Kims have done for six decades. It buys him time.

FWIW I see where you're coming from, but it's pretty hard to give the guy the benefit of the doubt based on his and his family's history.

brian wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:17 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:04 pm
So all this put together is really speculation but maybe, I hope, it can bring something different. Why did Kim meet with South Korea? Why now?

Because jerking around the South and the west is something the Kims have done for six decades. It buys him time.

I know i may be dreaming and totally wrong. Just hoping it's different.

edit: the family really tanked during the father's reign. The grandfather wasn't so bad actually. He was following Soviet philosophy and it could be argued that in the 60s and 70s, the north was more prosperous than the south.

P.D.X. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:11 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:04 pm 2) Kim may not be so ruthless. Yes he had to be ruthless to gain and retain power in that vacuum but he is foreign educated and does know more about the way of the world then his dad.

He fed his uncle to dogs and had his brother poisoned in an airport, but in a worldly, sophisticated kind of way.

I laughed out loud. My dog did that tilted head look at me.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:20 pm

brian wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:17 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:04 pm
So all this put together is really speculation but maybe, I hope, it can bring something different. Why did Kim meet with South Korea? Why now?

Because jerking around the South and the west is something the Kims have done for six decades. It buys him time.

I know i may be dreaming and totally wrong. Just hoping it's different.

edit: the family really tanked during the father's reign. The grandfather wasn't so bad actually. He was following Soviet philosophy and it could be argued that in the 60s and 70s, the north was more prosperous than the south.

Huh? Can you back up that assertion with facts?

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:51 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:20 pm

brian wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:17 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:04 pm
So all this put together is really speculation but maybe, I hope, it can bring something different. Why did Kim meet with South Korea? Why now?

Because jerking around the South and the west is something the Kims have done for six decades. It buys him time.

I know i may be dreaming and totally wrong. Just hoping it's different.

edit: the family really tanked during the father's reign. The grandfather wasn't so bad actually. He was following Soviet philosophy and it could be argued that in the 60s and 70s, the north was more prosperous than the south.

Huh? Can you back up that assertion with facts?

A real quick version. North Korea was strong like the Soviet Union in the 60s. South Korea was very unstable. Most people don't realize that South Korea is currently in it's 6th iteration of its constitution. Military coups and assassinations were the norm in the south. Socialism/Communism was gaining momentum in the North and other parts of the world.


The present day North Korea was the "developed" half of Korea during the Japanese Imperial occupation. They had all the industries. The North continued those and with Soviet money, ramped up production. The Japanese had trained skilled workers who continued in these factories. North Korea even supplied the South with it's electricity! And would turn it off if they were pissed.

I just pulled this quote:

The basic economic policy of Kim Il Sung was to give priority to the development of heavy industry. Consumer goods were to be sacrificed to concentrate on the development of heavy industry. Kim led a six member delegation to visit the Soviet Union from Sept 10 to 29 to meet with the new leaders after the death of Stalin and to secure a loan. Kim received a loan of one billion rubles for the reconstruction of Korea. Kim also led a delegation to Beijing and secured a loan of eight trillion Chinese Yuan and previous Korean debts to China were canceled .The 1954–56 three-year plan repaired the massive damage caused by the war and brought industrial production back to pre-war levels. This was followed by the five-year plan of 1957–61 and the seven-year plan of 1961–67. These plans brought about further growth in industrial production and substantial development of state infrastructure.

The south had nothing. Just farmland which it had to develop. It was actually the South Korean dictatorship that suppressed information from it's citizens. Most people in South Korea knew that living standards in North Korea were higher until around 1976 or so. South Koreans knew that North Koreans they had pretty decent universal health care and had a food distribution system.

Way back in the day, people were stunned that Seoul got the Olympics. When I was a kid, South Korea was poorer than many, many African countries.

Even more so than Japan building itself up from isolation and destruction to become the world's 3rd biggest economy, South Korea's growth in the last 40-50 years is nothing short of miraculous.

What?!

This is some fucking bizarre sci-fi future world, right? Am I on acid?

Pruitt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:34 pm Way back in the day, people were stunned that Seoul got the Olympics. When I was a kid, South Korea was poorer than many, many African countries.

Even more so than Japan building itself up from isolation and destruction to become the world's 3rd biggest economy, South Korea's growth in the last 40-50 years is nothing short of miraculous.

Didn't they have a right-wing authoritarian government like Indonesia?

That video is no longer on YouTube, but if it's about the hotels comment he made, I just want to see the word "Trump" on this mother fucking building since we are living in the most retarded timeline ever:



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryugyong_Hotel

It would be fitting as that hotel is never full - in fact most of it is more or less a "potemkin village" - like facade.

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:12 pm

Pruitt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:34 pm Way back in the day, people were stunned that Seoul got the Olympics. When I was a kid, South Korea was poorer than many, many African countries.

Even more so than Japan building itself up from isolation and destruction to become the world's 3rd biggest economy, South Korea's growth in the last 40-50 years is nothing short of miraculous.

Didn't they have a right-wing authoritarian government like Indonesia?

Yep. Some real nasty stuff went on back in the 60s and 70s.

No punches pulled here.

Trump’s Negotiating Style Is Pure Art of the Moron

Thank you, because nothing says Presidential Stature like your juvenile dick-waving and insults attacking the heads of state of the G7 nations. Thanks are also in order for deploying your clown-car motorcade of loudmouth, shock-jock aides to make the damage worse.

There are so many people who are so willfully ignorant in cheering this NK "deal" after crushing previous actual deals that you can't even have a conversation with them. They aren't worth wasting the time trying to form words and stuff.

Gunpowder wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:16 pm There are so many people who are so willfully ignorant in cheering this NK "deal" after crushing previous actual deals that you can't even have a conversation with them. They aren't worth wasting the time trying to form words and stuff.

They don;t seem impressed at The Korea Times (Seoul): The Malformed Summit

Sure, you can talk all you want about how it was spawned by nasty little boys playing unsafe diplomacy in the coatroom. It was international relations at a discount practiced by used car salesmen, strategy thrown together by barkers and pimps, policy fumbled by playboys and freeloaders.

But no matter what you may say, it is most definitely not going back into its hypothetical womb.

Gunpowder wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:16 pm There are so many people who are so willfully ignorant in cheering this NK "deal" after crushing previous actual deals that you can't even have a conversation with them. They aren't worth wasting the time trying to form words and stuff.

It is because they are a cult. You can't reason with cultists. Or bother them with facts. People act more like acolytes or religious devotees of Trump at this point.

An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.

There are and were millions of dummies ready to take that next step into deification, but the fact that it was Donald Fucking Trump who was able to become the leader still gets me.

Pruitt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:55 pm An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.

Stuart Anderson really missed his chance.

All that dumb shit about people mindlessly following the messiah Obama, which I guess applied to some college kids, is actually happening for real but with grown ass men and women. To a disturbing level. Can we hold this off forever without some kind of big destructive event that teaches everybody their lessons? I'm really not so sure. If Trump gets impeached it will probably be like the end of WW1 where they didn't think that they actually "lost" and they rally around that before we end up nuking our own balls off.




EDIT: Removed a "not"

Shit is fucked up and I don't even think Gunpowder hitting another 6 HRs or so this week to extend his league lead could distract me from it.

tennbengal wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:41 pm

Gunpowder wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:16 pm There are so many people who are so willfully ignorant in cheering this NK "deal" after crushing previous actual deals that you can't even have a conversation with them. They aren't worth wasting the time trying to form words and stuff.

It is because they are a cult. You can't reason with cultists. Or bother them with facts. People act more like acolytes or religious devotees of Trump at this point.

It's just like, inherent in these people. These are like the 'omg save the whales bro' types but on a dangerous and powerful level. I miss the days when the hard core crazy right wing nuts just like, grew their beards out, hoarded canned soups and moved off the grid to a cabin in the woods somewhere. Yeah you might occasionally get a bomb mailed to a trade school but that was a much more isolated threat. It's probably going to be time to stop shooting up schools and churches and start shooting up countries soon.

tennbengal wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:41 pm

Gunpowder wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:16 pm There are so many people who are so willfully ignorant in cheering this NK "deal" after crushing previous actual deals that you can't even have a conversation with them. They aren't worth wasting the time trying to form words and stuff.

It is because they are a cult. You can't reason with cultists. Or bother them with facts. People act more like acolytes or religious devotees of Trump at this point.

Next - his acolytes demand a Nobel Peace Prize for Him!

But really though how is this any different than like, making actual concessions to your child in exchange for a promise that they'll clean their room eventually?

Gunpowder wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:30 pm But really though how is this any different than like, making actual concessions to your child in exchange for a promise that they'll clean their room eventually?

Don't you know a win when you see one??!!

Pruitt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:55 pm An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.

What's even more impressive is the number of nouns you could have used in lieu of "steak" and still been correct. Vodka, casino (although you would have likely needed to replace "salesman"), cologne, college...

DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:59 pm

Pruitt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:55 pm An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.

What's even more impressive is the number of nouns you could have used in lieu of "steak" and still been correct. Vodka, casino (although you would have likely needed to replace "salesman"), cologne, college...

airlines, mortgages....

Pruitt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:37 pm It would be fitting as that hotel is never full - in fact most of it is more or less a "potemkin village" - like facade.

If by "never full," you mean "has yet to opened to a single guest," then yes. Hilarious that it's been under construction for 30 years, and they keep restarting the project. I may be confusing buildings, but I think people live in apartments in that building, but there is no electricity. Nothing worse than a 105 story walkup.

Gunpowder wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:30 pm But really though how is this any different than like, making actual concessions to your child in exchange for a promise that they'll clean their room eventually?

This is such a perfect way of phrasing it. And then celebrating yourself like you just brokered the greatest negotiation in history.

Pruitt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:55 pm An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.

I was overdue for a new signature line. Thanks, Pruitt.

This thread is just frightening.



Especially the "something needs to be done about CNN!" ones. They can't all be bots.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:03 pm

Gunpowder wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:30 pm But really though how is this any different than like, making actual concessions to your child in exchange for a promise that they'll clean their room eventually?

This is such a perfect way of phrasing it. And then celebrating yourself like you just brokered the greatest negotiation in history.

It's like you did it all just because you wanted them to hug you or something. Trump is like a divorced parent.