The Swamp

tennbengal wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:39 am And I do apologize, to the extent I need to. I do have some frustration that the left gets bogged down on stupid shit in terms of how to talk about what has happened. I am more worried about whether the law even applies to Trump et al, than finding the exact correct legal charge for what he has done. To me, he has betrayed the country. As has McConnell and Ryan, and a lot more. Literal betrayal. Whether that is technically treason or not, I don't give a shit. But, in these parts, which feels like my internet "home" amongst friends, I don't feel like I really need to be all that exact when talking about what Trump has done. To me, it's treason. Were I prosecuting this, I would probably not use that word. But I am not prosecuting it. I am simply expressing what I feel it in effect is.

Giff wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:43 am I'm pretty sure people in Swamp calling it treason is going to make a HUGE difference in how this plays out.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:30 am

Giff wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:43 am I'm pretty sure people in Swamp calling it treason is going to make a HUGE difference in how this plays out.

Everyone is arguing past each other here, and I think we are all coming from the same point of view on the big picture. While typing treason on the Swamp isn't going to matter, I see treason being used all the time in the MSM and by Dems in Congress, and that does matter. I agree with Nonlinear's point. I understand why TB and others see it as pedantic, but Trump has a very real defence that, even assuming all the worst of what we think he may have done actually happened, it isn't technically treason, and he and his mouthpieces can make a winning argument there. Much like how the MSM latched on to the term "collusion." "Collusion" isn't technically a crime, so Trump supporters who might be swayable can hear legal experts confirm "collusion" isn't a crime, and shut down on hearing facts proving conspiracy to commit actual crimes.

So yes, Trump is a treasonous fucker in the colloquial meaning, but he has not committed a crime of treason.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:30 am

Giff wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:43 am I'm pretty sure people in Swamp calling it treason is going to make a HUGE difference in how this plays out.

Everyone is arguing past each other here, and I think we are all coming from the same point of view on the big picture. While typing treason on the Swamp isn't going to matter, I see treason being used all the time in the MSM and by Dems in Congress, and that does matter. I agree with Nonlinear's point. I understand why TB and others see it as pedantic, but Trump has a very real defence that, even assuming all the worst of what we think he may have done actually happened, it isn't technically treason, and he and his mouthpieces can make a winning argument there. Much like how the MSM latched on to the term "collusion." "Collusion" isn't technically a crime, so Trump supporters who might be swayable can hear legal experts confirm "collusion" isn't a crime, and shut down on hearing facts proving conspiracy to commit actual crimes.

So yes, Trump is a treasonous fucker in the colloquial meaning, but he has not committed a crime of treason.

GoodKarma wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:47 am

The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:30 am

Giff wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:43 am I'm pretty sure people in Swamp calling it treason is going to make a HUGE difference in how this plays out.

Everyone is arguing past each other here, and I think we are all coming from the same point of view on the big picture. While typing treason on the Swamp isn't going to matter, I see treason being used all the time in the MSM and by Dems in Congress, and that does matter. I agree with Nonlinear's point. I understand why TB and others see it as pedantic, but Trump has a very real defence that, even assuming all the worst of what we think he may have done actually happened, it isn't technically treason, and he and his mouthpieces can make a winning argument there. Much like how the MSM latched on to the term "collusion." "Collusion" isn't technically a crime, so Trump supporters who might be swayable can hear legal experts confirm "collusion" isn't a crime, and shut down on hearing facts proving conspiracy to commit actual crimes.

So yes, Trump is a treasonous fucker in the colloquial meaning, but he has not committed a crime of treason.

Which is why I've sat most of this out. Bottom line is Trump & and his administration are terrible people that operate like the mafia. It's a sham and a shame that he's in office. There isn't much more to add.

Previously undisclosed evidence in the possession of Special Counsel Robert Mueller—including highly confidential White House records and testimony by some of President Trump’s own top aides—provides some of the strongest evidence to date implicating the president of the United States in an obstruction of justice. Several people who have reviewed a portion of this evidence say that, based on what they know, they believe it is now all but inevitable that the special counsel will complete a confidential report presenting evidence that President Trump violated the law. Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, who oversees the special counsel’s work, would then decide on turning over that report to Congress for the House of Representatives to consider whether to instigate impeachment proceedings.

Giff wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:52 am

GoodKarma wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:47 am

The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:30 am

Giff wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:43 am I'm pretty sure people in Swamp calling it treason is going to make a HUGE difference in how this plays out.

Everyone is arguing past each other here, and I think we are all coming from the same point of view on the big picture. While typing treason on the Swamp isn't going to matter, I see treason being used all the time in the MSM and by Dems in Congress, and that does matter. I agree with Nonlinear's point. I understand why TB and others see it as pedantic, but Trump has a very real defence that, even assuming all the worst of what we think he may have done actually happened, it isn't technically treason, and he and his mouthpieces can make a winning argument there. Much like how the MSM latched on to the term "collusion." "Collusion" isn't technically a crime, so Trump supporters who might be swayable can hear legal experts confirm "collusion" isn't a crime, and shut down on hearing facts proving conspiracy to commit actual crimes.

So yes, Trump is a treasonous fucker in the colloquial meaning, but he has not committed a crime of treason.

Which is why I've sat most of this out. Bottom line is Trump & and his administration are terrible people that operate like the mafia. It's a sham and a shame that he's in office. There isn't much more to add.

I think this thread is more proof of why Republicans can continue to win elections despite how terribly they govern and how much they lie. Here are a group of people left-of-center arguing whether the word treason should be used to describe people allegedely working with a foreign government to influence an election. Especially during an unprecedentedly shitty presidency when Republicans just run with any and all conspiracy theories, calling democrats soclialists who embolden terrorists and run pedophile rings out of pizza parlors. How about we take a fucking page from their playbook and try to burn the whole thing down too.

Giff wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:52 am

GoodKarma wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:47 am

The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:30 am

Giff wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:43 am I'm pretty sure people in Swamp calling it treason is going to make a HUGE difference in how this plays out.

Everyone is arguing past each other here, and I think we are all coming from the same point of view on the big picture. While typing treason on the Swamp isn't going to matter, I see treason being used all the time in the MSM and by Dems in Congress, and that does matter. I agree with Nonlinear's point. I understand why TB and others see it as pedantic, but Trump has a very real defence that, even assuming all the worst of what we think he may have done actually happened, it isn't technically treason, and he and his mouthpieces can make a winning argument there. Much like how the MSM latched on to the term "collusion." "Collusion" isn't technically a crime, so Trump supporters who might be swayable can hear legal experts confirm "collusion" isn't a crime, and shut down on hearing facts proving conspiracy to commit actual crimes.

So yes, Trump is a treasonous fucker in the colloquial meaning, but he has not committed a crime of treason.

Which is why I've sat most of this out. Bottom line is Trump & and his administration are terrible people that operate like the mafia. It's a sham and a shame that he's in office. There isn't much more to add.

I think this thread is more proof of why Republicans can continue to win elections despite how terribly they govern and how much they lie. Here are a group of people left-of-center arguing whether the word treason should be used to describe people allegedely working with a foreign government to influence an election. Especially during an unprecedentedly shitty presidency when Republicans just run with any and all conspiracy theories, calling democrats soclialists who embolden terrorists and run pedophile rings out of pizza parlors. How about we take a fucking page from their playbook and try to burn the whole thing down too.

tennbengal wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:08 pm When the civil war erupts, this QAnon insanity will be one of the matches.

..This is a terrible situation and Attorney General Jeff Sessions should stop this Rigged Witch Hunt right now, before it continues to stain our country any further. Bob Mueller is totally conflicted, and his 17 Angry Democrats that are doing his dirty work are a disgrace to USA!

Joe K wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:51 pm
... I’ve done some criminal stuff over the years.

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:22 pm Its almost like he's only putting it on twitter so it echoes back.

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:06 pm Twitter usage is the only aspect I think people underrate him and his intentions.

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:25 am

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:06 pm Twitter usage is the only aspect I think people underrate him and his intentions.

Agree 100 percent. It's all very transparent if you step back and stop being so ridiculously "outraged" by it all.

He has a team feeding him stuff. It's all VERY calculated. He/they are trying to drive the daily media cycle and/or feed raw meat to his base.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:34 am

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:25 am

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:06 pm Twitter usage is the only aspect I think people underrate him and his intentions.

Agree 100 percent. It's all very transparent if you step back and stop being so ridiculously "outraged" by it all.

He has a team feeding him stuff. It's all VERY calculated. He/they are trying to drive the daily media cycle and/or feed raw meat to his base.

I think this is true for a lot of his Tweets, he always writes crazy headline grabbing things to distract from a scandal or failure; but I also think some of the Friday night and 3:00am Tweets are made with no thought, and are emotional outbursts on the level of a 5 year old. I put stock in the theory that in his first 6 months, Ivanka kept him somewhat on track, but once she disappeared for Shabbat, his Friday evening self-inflicted Twitter wounds went out. As much as he is able to bury bad stories with his Tweets, he also steps on his wins by Tweeting stupid shit.

DaveInSeattle wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:58 pm So when Trump does something like he did yesterday...where he admits that everything he said about the Trump Tower meeting between Jr, Jared, and Manafort previously was a lie, and he just goes ahead and admits to collusion....do you think his lawyers just throw up their hands and say 'God Damn stupid mf-er'?

And what about his boot-licking toadies, such as Hannity? Do they just roll with it, or do they sit back and think 'Ok....how am I going to spin this on Monday's show?'

Washington Post wrote:As president, Donald Trump has uttered more than 4,000 falsehoods or misleading statements. And the spokespeople and advisers tasked with squaring Trump's version of reality with actual reality must often contort themselves accordingly. Early in the administration, this meant Kellyanne Conway talking about how the administration had “alternative facts.” Later, it was Sean Spicer explaining that he didn't “knowingly” lie to the American people.

On Sunday, they tried a couple of new tacks: asserting that “facts develop” and saying that the president “misspoke” — while saying something he has said dozens of times.

DaveInSeattle wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:58 pm So when Trump does something like he did yesterday...where he admits that everything he said about the Trump Tower meeting between Jr, Jared, and Manafort previously was a lie, and he just goes ahead and admits to collusion....do you think his lawyers just throw up their hands and say 'God Damn stupid mf-er'?

And what about his boot-licking toadies, such as Hannity? Do they just roll with it, or do they sit back and think 'Ok....how am I going to spin this on Monday's show?'

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:17 pm

DaveInSeattle wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:58 pm So when Trump does something like he did yesterday...where he admits that everything he said about the Trump Tower meeting between Jr, Jared, and Manafort previously was a lie, and he just goes ahead and admits to collusion....do you think his lawyers just throw up their hands and say 'God Damn stupid mf-er'?

And what about his boot-licking toadies, such as Hannity? Do they just roll with it, or do they sit back and think 'Ok....how am I going to spin this on Monday's show?'

It’s why there are “I’d rather be a Russian than a Democrat” t-shirts being made.

brian wrote: ↑Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:09 am If you thought Tom Price, Betsy DeVos or Scott Pruitt were the biggest grifters in the Trump cabinet, think again.

Maybe I'm getting old or maybe things are worse: I remember when the worst things that happened in my mid 20's were the Government burned down a cult compound and an intern blew the President. Now half a state is on fire and the President is fucking everybody.

According to a draft of the proposal described to NBC News, immigrants living legally in the United States who have used Obamacare, children’s health insurance, food stamps or other welfare programs could have a tough time receiving legal status. The administration’s rationale seems to be that these legal immigrants — many of whom are paying taxes — are mooching off programs paid for by “American” taxpayers.

The measure is a coup for Trump adviser Stephen Miller, who has exhibited a Terminator-like focus on restricting American immigration policy. Miller was at the forefront of the administration’s push to enact the “zero tolerance” border policy that led to thousands of family separations, admitting it was being used to deter migrants from seeking asylum in the United States.

He has tried to push several other measures through, many of which have been struck down by the federal judiciary. The new policy would precipitate what has already been a steep decline in the number of green cards issued since Trump took office, and experts estimate that over 20 million immigrants could be affected. Immigration lawyers told NBC News it would be the biggest overhaul of the legal immigration system in decades.

Other measures under consideration were limiting visas for temporary agricultural workers, making student visas more difficult to obtain and collecting biometric data from foreign visitors to the United States.

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:05 am Exceptions to every rule, I guess.