The Swamp

Steve of phpBB wrote:I will admit, though, that my thoughts on whether he should resign depend in some part on whether a Dem or Republican replaces him.

This is why I can't get too sanctimonious about Republicans supporting Moore instead of a Democrat. Senate seats matter to millions and millions of people. If Franken resigning means millions lose their health insurance, then I don't want him to resign.

Steeeeeeeve ...

brian wrote:And if only to troll the GOP and the alt-right racists I hope if Franken does resign he appoints Ellison to the seat. (Also, Ellison is kind of a bad-ass so that's a win-win.)

If these scandals result in Ellison becoming a Senator, and Moore losing, that would be a wonderful bit of karma. As background, Moore has said that Muslims shouldn't be allowed to serve in Congress -- an outrageous statement that would be disqualifying if directed at any other religion or ethnicity.

brian wrote:

Steve of phpBB wrote:I will admit, though, that my thoughts on whether he should resign depend in some part on whether a Dem or Republican replaces him.

This is why I can't get too sanctimonious about Republicans supporting Moore instead of a Democrat. Senate seats matter to millions and millions of people. If Franken resigning means millions lose their health insurance, then I don't want him to resign.

Minnesota's governor is a Democrat so presumably the replacement would be a Democrat.

Then fuck that scumbag predator and get him the fuck out of office!

Think the Democrats can really chop off the Republicans at the knees here if they force Franken to resign and soon. It removes any kind of "both sides-ism" arguments that they feebly keep trying to make about Clinton, Bill.

I don't think it carries over to the other party at all, its just necessary to not be them.

mister d wrote:I don't think it carries over to the other party at all, its just necessary to not be them.

Drawing a line in the sand shines a negative light on them for failing to do so (by comparison). Part of all this by the way should be relegating Bill Clinton to no role in the Democratic Party as well. No more speeches at national conventions and nothing to do whatsoever with the Democratic Party any longer.

This is another reason to force Franken to resign. Maybe some of these women will feel empowered to come out on the record. Let the chips fall where they may.

https://twitter.com/byrdinator/status/9 ... 6138881025

brian wrote:Think the Democrats can really chop off the Republicans at the knees here if they force Franken to resign and soon. It removes any kind of "both sides-ism" arguments that they feebly keep trying to make about Clinton, Bill.

I agree. The only downside is the risk of losing the seat in 2018, but if the Dems can't win a Senate seat in Minnesota next year, we're fucked anyway.

brian wrote:Drawing a line in the sand shines a negative light on them for failing to do so (by comparison).

I'm pretty sure electing and falling in line behind "grab her by the pussy" and then running a pedophile for Senate is shinier, more negative light than any shaming the Dems can do.

Oh, Leeann Tweeden. I remember her fondly.

Rumor was she met her husband while on one of those USO trips and he fucked her in his plane/helo. I think there was a small to do that was swept under the rug because pilots don't have to adhere to General Order 1b.

Yes, the photo is terrible, but now we're at the point where this is such a hot button issue it's weaponized to ruin lives.

Edit:

Please note that my rumor is completely unsubstantiated.

Steve of phpBB wrote:I will admit, though, that my thoughts on whether he should resign depend in some part on whether a Dem or Republican replaces him.

This is why I can't get too sanctimonious about Republicans supporting Moore instead of a Democrat. Senate seats matter to millions and millions of people. If Franken resigning means millions lose their health insurance, then I don't want him to resign.

As long as Trump refuses to even acknowledge what he did/is and resign, why should anyone else?

"Sexual assault/harassment is bad but its worse to concede power" isn't a stance the ostensibly better party should want any part of.

Not sure how anyone can look at that picture and not have it turn your stomach a little. I realize he was trying to be funny, but that's too far and it's offensive. And if it's offensive to me, I'm sure it has to be considerably more offensive to women.

brian wrote:Not sure how anyone can look at that picture and not have it turn your stomach a little. I realize he was trying to be funny, but that's too far and it's offensive. And if it's offensive to me, I'm sure it has to be considerably more offensive to women.

Yes, it's very bad. And I'm forcing any excuse out of my head to absolve him off and wrong doing. If a military member did that he'd be punished hard.

Sure she's wearing a flack vest. Sure it's a mock stunt implying something. Sure I've been fucked with when I feel asleep on duty. And whatever else, but that's inexcusable. He shouldn't be fired or asked to step aside, imo. But a strongly worded apology is in order.

I think sometimes you make an example out of someone, even if they aren't "the most guilty", and I can't find a good excuse for Franken not to be that person. (And I would absolutely like to, I've liked everything I've seen of him prior and think he's a really good guy to have in the Senate. Sucks.)

mister d wrote:I think sometimes you make an example out of someone, even if they aren't "the most guilty", and I can't find a good excuse for Franken not to be that person. (And I would absolutely like to, I've liked everything I've seen of him prior and think he's a really good guy to have in the Senate. Sucks.)

Right, this is where I stand. I mean ideally it would be someone like Menendez or even Cory Booker who are problematic for various reasons, but can't have any sacred cows at this point.

mister d wrote:I think sometimes you make an example out of someone, even if they aren't "the most guilty", and I can't find a good excuse for Franken not to be that person. (And I would absolutely like to, I've liked everything I've seen of him prior and think he's a really good guy to have in the Senate. Sucks.)

I don't want to see him burn, but damn if the Dems/he would just get their shit together and say "You know this is out of context/a poor taste joke and he was a comedian at the time, BUT given our collective goals for society and the way forward for this country and WOMEN worldwide, we have recommended he leave his position at this time because regardless of anything else going on, all people deserve to be respected and there is no place for this type of behavior from anyone, especially an elected representative of the American People."

You aren't going to win anyone from the side that thinks that doing this sort of thing is funny/acceptable, but you can show people in the middle/on the fence about this side of the aisle that you're serious about this shit and you're above waffling on it because of your party's political needs at the time.

Yup. "If there were a picture of Marco Rubio grabbing a sleeping / passed out women's breasts and an accusation by that same woman that he forcibly kissed her, would you demand he be removed ..." is a good place to start if you're on the fence.

Johnnie wrote:Oh, Leeann Tweeden. I remember her fondly.

Rumor was she met her husband while on one of those USO trips and he fucked her in his plane/helo. I think there was a small to do that was swept under the rug because pilots don't have to adhere to General Order 1b.

Yes, the photo is terrible, but now we're at the point where this is such a hot button issue it's weaponized to ruin lives.

Edit:

Please note that my rumor is completely unsubstantiated.

What's the point of this comment? How she met her husband is completely irrelevant, even if your unsubstantiated rumor is true.

And let it be weaponized, I say.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what an ethics investigation accomplishes here given that he wasn't a senator at the time and ... there's a picture.

gonna investigate the kiss?

Any resistance makes the Dems look as bad (or probably worse) and is going to include shit like "do we know if his hands are actually making contact" or nonsense like that. Which means that's exactly what we're going to get here because they love to fuck everything up as spectacularly as possible.

brian wrote:

mister d wrote:I think sometimes you make an example out of someone, even if they aren't "the most guilty", and I can't find a good excuse for Franken not to be that person. (And I would absolutely like to, I've liked everything I've seen of him prior and think he's a really good guy to have in the Senate. Sucks.)

Right, this is where I stand. I mean ideally it would be someone like Menendez or even Cory Booker who are problematic for various reasons, but can't have any sacred cows at this point.

+1

It sucks, because he's been so great skewering idiots from the Senate, but he's got to go.

A_B wrote:

Johnnie wrote:Oh, Leeann Tweeden. I remember her fondly.

Rumor was she met her husband while on one of those USO trips and he fucked her in his plane/helo. I think there was a small to do that was swept under the rug because pilots don't have to adhere to General Order 1b.

Yes, the photo is terrible, but now we're at the point where this is such a hot button issue it's weaponized to ruin lives.

Edit:

Please note that my rumor is completely unsubstantiated.

What's the point of this comment? How she met her husband is completely irrelevant, even if your unsubstantiated rumor is true.

And let it be weaponized, I say.

There isn't if it's unsubstantiated. And if it were it has nothing to do with this. You're right.

mister d wrote:Any resistance makes the Dems look as bad (or probably worse) and is going to include shit like "do we know if his hands are actually making contact" or nonsense like that. Which means that's exactly what we're going to get here because they love to fuck everything up as spectacularly as possible.

oh agreed

it's just annoying as hell that society's awakening to men doing awful things was supposedly triggered by the president's uninvestigated and unpunished claims -- as well as other allegations against him -- that he does awful things to women

Yeah, that ship has sailed. At this point I imagine you're hoping guys who have incidents in their past disqualify themselves and that future incidents don't even occur.

with the alt-right and the discussions of all this behavior, 2017 is the year everyone finally realized how awful white guys are

McConnell is calling for an investigation. The GOP will stall, filibuster, falsely equate, and make excuses with a Republican does something, but the second it's a Democrat bring the torches and pitchforks.

(And I know it's wrong to jump to excuses for Franken, but Tweeden is a tea party crazy, birther, and multi time guest of Hannity. I can't help but think this was calculated.)

OK, so now that's twice you've either come really close to, or in this instance, completely victim-blamed. It's not a good look.

No matter her politics or his, groping a woman without consent is a BAD THING.

It's pretty easy - he should step down. Immediately.

And anyone running for office in the future who did this stuff should not run - it's disqualifying. And anyone in office currently who did this stuff should not run again and if they are found out, also step down.

As for the guy in the White House, rules don't apply to him, apparently.

I think if Franken resigns and calls on Trump to resign as well (not that Trump will) then that will send a powerful message to the rest of the country about which party takes the feelings and needs of women most seriously.

I just responded to someone I spar with frequently on Facebook. He actually gets on my last fucking nerve and I blocked his feed for a few weeks, but I came back, because deep down I hate myself. He shared the photo that was promoted by Mike Cernovich (can join the punchable faces list).

"OK. That's clear evidence. Franken should resign. Anyone else in public office who had accusations or admissions of doing things sexually that bad or worse to women should resign as well. Anyone running for public office who had accusations or admissions of doing things sexually that bad or worse to women should drop out of the race. Since you promote #ConsistentPrinciples, I'm sure you'll agree."

Yes, he posts in memes and hashtags. And he was my pledge brother, and sucked at it, and constantly got my pledge class in trouble.

I'm going to steal from larry David's brutal monologue on SNL - but in light of this Franken business, Jews are ridiculously disproportionately represented in the recent sexual harassment assault revelations.

And when Roy Moor wins, what happens then? Who in politics will ever see the need to step down?

Fuck men.

A_B wrote:OK, so now that's twice you've either come really close to, or in this instance, completely victim-blamed. It's not a good look.

No matter her politics or his, groping a woman without consent is a BAD THING.

No fucking shit. I recanted my first statement and have honest feelings about the second. If Franken resigns because of this and the FUCKING PRESIDENT DOESN'T then I'll continue to victim blame.

You're right about nothing else mattering. You're right that she's a victim and should be granted every benefit of every doubt. But I'm not giving carte blanche, unmitigated leeway to every person. If republicans can mental gymnastics their way out of every possible circumstance of every possible act of indecency, then I can certainly think "maybe there's something else here."

We're at the point that right now where you literally cannot have done anything in your past that can be contextualized in the moment. Just wait until many members of Congress are Millenials and their social media history is brought out.

Johnnie wrote:

A_B wrote:OK, so now that's twice you've either come really close to, or in this instance, completely victim-blamed. It's not a good look.

No matter her politics or his, groping a woman without consent is a BAD THING.

No fucking shit. I recanted my first statement and have honest feelings about the second. If Franken resigns because of this and the FUCKING PRESIDENT DOESN'T then I'll continue to victim blame.

You're right about nothing else mattering. You're right that she's a victim and should be granted every benefit of every doubt. But I'm not giving carte blanche, unmitigated leeway to every person. If republicans can mental gymnastics their way out of every possible circumstance of every possible act of indecency, then I can certainly think "maybe there's something else here."

We're at the point that right now where you literally cannot have done anything in your past that can be contextualized in the moment. Just wait until many members of Congress are minefield and their social media history is brought out.

Let justice be done though the heavens fall.

We are seeing however that none of this shit matters to many, many people.

brian wrote:

Johnnie wrote:

A_B wrote:OK, so now that's twice you've either come really close to, or in this instance, completely victim-blamed. It's not a good look.

No matter her politics or his, groping a woman without consent is a BAD THING.

No fucking shit. I recanted my first statement and have honest feelings about the second. If Franken resigns because of this and the FUCKING PRESIDENT DOESN'T then I'll continue to victim blame.

You're right about nothing else mattering. You're right that she's a victim and should be granted every benefit of every doubt. But I'm not giving carte blanche, unmitigated leeway to every person. If republicans can mental gymnastics their way out of every possible circumstance of every possible act of indecency, then I can certainly think "maybe there's something else here."

We're at the point that right now where you literally cannot have done anything in your past that can be contextualized in the moment. Just wait until many members of Congress are minefield and their social media history is brought out.

Let justice be done though the heavens fall.

Unfortunately, though, the heavens are likely to fall on other people, not us, and many of those folks are pretty vulnerable.

Unfortunately we need a completely reshuffling of our attitudes towards sexual assault, but this doesn't happen in a vacuum. You can't protect Guy A because he's one of the "good guys" while calling for Guy B to resign because he has other retrograde opinions about women (or Muslims or whatever).

If the rank and file in the GOP refuses to see it that way we will push society to make them see it that way. Believe it or not, I truly believe Franken resigning -- if it is done the right way -- is a chance to really stick it to the Republicans and Trump.

brian wrote:

Johnnie wrote:

A_B wrote:OK, so now that's twice you've either come really close to, or in this instance, completely victim-blamed. It's not a good look.

No matter her politics or his, groping a woman without consent is a BAD THING.

No fucking shit. I recanted my first statement and have honest feelings about the second. If Franken resigns because of this and the FUCKING PRESIDENT DOESN'T then I'll continue to victim blame.

You're right about nothing else mattering. You're right that she's a victim and should be granted every benefit of every doubt. But I'm not giving carte blanche, unmitigated leeway to every person. If republicans can mental gymnastics their way out of every possible circumstance of every possible act of indecency, then I can certainly think "maybe there's something else here."

We're at the point that right now where you literally cannot have done anything in your past that can be contextualized in the moment. Just wait until many members of Congress are minefield and their social media history is brought out.

Let justice be done though the heavens fall.

That's on you, then. Victim-blaming is quite possibly the #1 reason many cases are not investigated fully and a real driver in why some women never report sexual assault at all. That people are feeling emboldened by the current climate surrounding this is a great thing.

And can you really pick and choose if you take that stance? You have to also say that the people were accusing Trump had a motive. It may be true in both cases and it may not be, but it can't just be when it's someone you like.

brian wrote:Unfortunately we need a completely reshuffling of our attitudes towards sexual assault, but this doesn't happen in a vacuum. You can't protect Guy A because he's one of the "good guys" while calling for Guy B to resign because he has other retrograde opinions about women (or Muslims or whatever).

If the rank and file in the GOP refuses to see it that way we will push society to make them see it that way. Believe it or not, I truly believe Franken resigning -- if it is done the right way -- is a chance to really stick it to the Republicans and Trump.

True, but it'd be preaching to the choir.

brian wrote:Let justice be done though the heavens fall.

I agree. Conservatives don't though. And justice doesn't seem to have a liberal bias.