degenerasian wrote: ↑Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:52 pm
Turkish ref has been given the England-Croatia semi
Uruguayan ref to get France-Belgium semi, that's two matches in a row France gets the ref from the country that they just knocked out.
Geiger in contention for the final but it'll most likely be Kuipers from Holland or Rocchi from Italy
As much as I thought his treatment last game was bullshit, he absolutely should not be doing the final.
I wonder if FIFA was kind of getting his back a little there. He also had that bullshit from Morocco, accusing him of wanting Ronaldo's jersey.
He could get rewarded with a 4th official slot right?
Or the 3th place game?
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:02 pm
by sancarlos
I enjoy the drama of a game going to kicks, but it is kind of unfathomable to me that the outcome of the final championship game of the World Cup could possibly be determined that way.
There would be a huge outcry of protest if the NHL used a shootout in a Stanley Cup Final game.
degenerasian wrote: ↑Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:52 pm
Turkish ref has been given the England-Croatia semi
Uruguayan ref to get France-Belgium semi, that's two matches in a row France gets the ref from the country that they just knocked out.
Geiger in contention for the final but it'll most likely be Kuipers from Holland or Rocchi from Italy
As much as I thought his treatment last game was bullshit, he absolutely should not be doing the final.
I wonder if FIFA was kind of getting his back a little there. He also had that bullshit from Morocco, accusing him of wanting Ronaldo's jersey.
He could get rewarded with a 4th official slot right?
Or the 3th place game?
Now THAT seems really plausible.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:14 pm
by Nonlinear FC
sancarlos wrote: ↑Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:02 pm
I enjoy the drama of a game going to kicks, but it is kind of unfathomable to me that the outcome of the final championship game of the World Cup could possibly be determined that way.
There would be a huge outcry of protest if the NHL used a shootout in a Stanley Cup Final game.
Well, yeah, but... Look, hockey has determined major tournaments with shootouts for years (world juniors, olympics, etc.) And I'm not saying hockey is less taxing, but those guys are running shifts and taking two pretty long breaks during their game. I LOOVE the NHL playoffs but I've also literally been at Cap Center for one of the longest games in history, and watched the Islander game with increasing dread on a small TV in Ajax, OT. Those games were absolute shit after the 2nd OT.
What I wish everyone who talks about hating PKs had to do is sit through the fucking DISASTER of a game that was the 1985 NCAA championships between UCLA and American. That shit went to EIGHT(!) overtimes. It was an absolute debacle, because somewhere into the 2nd ET, everyone was completely gassed and it was a Bataan Death March.
At some point you have to end things. They can't run around all day.
And this isn't a shot at you, SC, but as a guy that spent an inordinate amount of timing listening to Americans bitch about soccer, one of the ones that you'd hear most often is "that game sucks, Americans would NEVER end a game in tie!" Again, it's a sport that requires guys to run somewhere around 7-10 miles a game, in regular time.
sancarlos wrote: ↑Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:02 pm
I enjoy the drama of a game going to kicks, but it is kind of unfathomable to me that the outcome of the final championship game of the World Cup could possibly be determined that way.
There would be a huge outcry of protest if the NHL used a shootout in a Stanley Cup Final game.
At some point you have to end things. They can't run around all day.
And this isn't a shot at you, SC, but as a guy that spent an inordinate amount of timing listening to Americans bitch about soccer, one of the ones that you'd hear most often is "that game sucks, Americans would NEVER end a game in tie!" Again, it's a sport that requires guys to run somewhere around 7-10 miles a game, in regular time.
There are so many games that you watch as they fizzle out in overtime and realize that they could have played for another hour or two and the teams simply would not score.
I would love to see sudden death, but this isn;t the worst thing.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:53 pm
by Ryan
Bring one net to midfield you’re welcome
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:30 pm
by degenerasian
I have suggested to play a bit longer. Another 30 minutes with a 5th sub.
Or change to two 20 minute halves with an additional sub in each.
Or a 7 shot shootout so more weaker players have to kick.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:11 am
by Pruitt
Another reason that the current format isn't going anywhere - I've been watching the games on delay and have noticed that a 90 minute game with breaks and a short wrap up fits snugly in a 2 hour time slot.
The games that have gone to a shootout neatly fill a 3 hour time slot.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:26 am
by wlu_lax6
Pruitt wrote: ↑Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:49 pm
I would love to see sudden death, but this isn;t the worst thing.
FIFA went to the golden goal in 1993 ("sudden death" was perceived to have negative connotations). Used in UERO 96 and World Cup 98. Stopped using it on the men's side in 2002 and the lady's in 2003. EEFA has tried a Silver Goal (if you are winning at the end of the first ET the game is over).
wiki wrote:The golden goal and silver goal were widely perceived as failed experiments. They had not brought about more active and attacking play and there was confusion when events could choose among several different extra time rules.[8] The golden goal in the Euro 96 final was controversial, as the Czechs, who were on the losing side argued that the Germans' winning goal was offside. The silver goal has been called illogical in that it denies the losing team the chance of saving the match simply by virtue of when the goal is scored, a point best illustrated in the Euro 2004 semi-final; if the Greek goal had been scored 15 seconds later, that is immediately after the extra-time interval (instead of the last two seconds of the first period of extra time), the Czechs would have had nearly 15 minutes to attempt to score the equalizer. Furthermore, one team could benefit unfairly from the conditions, such as if a strong wind aided one side.[9]
In February 2004, the IFAB announced that after Euro 2004 in Portugal, both the golden goal and silver goal methods would be removed from the Laws of the Game. Since the 2006 FIFA World Cup in Germany the golden goal has never been used in the event of a tied match during the knockout stage,[10] and FIFA restored the original rules.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:34 am
by Pruitt
Yeah, I remember the golden goal. The reasons cited above for ending the experiment make sense.
Then - inevitably - there's this. (Pretty funny)
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:45 am
by Sabo
Pruitt wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:34 am
Yeah, I remember the golden goal. The reasons cited above for ending the experiment make sense.
Then - inevitably - there's this. (Pretty funny)
These videos are always great.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:28 am
by HaulCitgo
On the multiple OTs. Soccer teams do have about 10 extra guys that havent played at all that day. So long as you keep putting new legs on the field, the game would be wide open for them. New sub every 15 min OT sounds about right. By the end of the second OT more than 1/2 the team wouldnt have run more than a half.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:08 am
by degenerasian
I want to see the 3rd keeper play as a forward
That said, i think the main problem is worldwide tv. North Americans have accepted multiple overtimes in hockey and extra innings in baseball and it is still kept due to tradition. But tv hates it and if hockey and baseball were invented today, that would be a stupid idea.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:19 am
by testuser2
They could always switch to the method used by the oldest kids winter league. If a game is tied after regulation then both teams have to pull a player every five minutes. The first must be the goalie.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:36 am
by brian
testuser2 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:19 am
They could always switch to the method used by the oldest kids winter league. If a game is tied after regulation then both teams have to pull a player every five minutes. The first must be the goalie.
I would think this method might actually have some usefulness since it seems more likely to result in goals and seems less "random" than penalties (and yes, I'm well aware penalties aren't random).
Could have one "regular" OT session of say 15 minutes, no golden goal. Then each team has to remove a player, so 10x10 (assuming no one has been sent off). Play 15 minutes, but now it's sudden death. If no goal, now it's 9x9 and play 15 minutes, etc.
Hard to imagine too many games making it past 45 minutes, but imagine the drama if it did. (I would allow additional one sub per OT period as well.)
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:42 am
by degenerasian
At some point the field is too big for the limited number of players to run? Can't put two passes together.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:46 am
by brian
degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:42 am
At some point the field is too big for the limited number of players to run? Can't put two passes together.
The result of fewer players would be the same as 3x3 OT in hockey. Doesn't guarantee a goal would be scored but would allow the most skilled players to have a bigger role in ending the game.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:24 pm
by wlu_lax6
degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:42 am
At some point the field is too big for the limited number of players to run? Can't put two passes together.
In the lacrosse world lots of summer tournaments, off season leagues use something called "braveheart". Since there is no official version it varies a little bit but generally it is 1 goalie and 1 player full field. Goalie has to stay on their side of the field. Gimmick that I am not a fan of but it ends it quick with best-on-best.
degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:42 am
At some point the field is too big for the limited number of players to run? Can't put two passes together.
The result of fewer players would be the same as 3x3 OT in hockey. Doesn't guarantee a goal would be scored but would allow the most skilled players to have a bigger role in ending the game.
for 5 minutes 3x3 is ok but if it were played indefinitely I'm not sure anything would happen. It would just be keep away. Especially for high stakes.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:34 pm
by degenerasian
I like these graphics
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:18 pm
by Nonlinear FC
Do they pull the goalie and put a field player back there?
Because if not, I find that to be almost as much of a bastardization of the game as PKs.
And I'm not kidding.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:50 pm
by degenerasian
How Batshuayi didn't get into this game earlier is crazy.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:09 pm
by testuser2
Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:18 pm
Do they pull the goalie and put a field player back there?
Because if not, I find that to be almost as much of a bastardization of the game as PKs.
And I'm not kidding.
It was a facility rule. I think they just wanted us off the field. Game ended on the kickoff. They put it over the head of the field player we had standing in goal.
We have played in other tournaments where they pulled a field player. You could pull whoever you wanted, but we never pulled a goalie. That worked really well.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:11 pm
by mister d
Belgium seemed to not get the benefit of the calls today, eh?
Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:18 pm
Do they pull the goalie and put a field player back there?
Because if not, I find that to be almost as much of a bastardization of the game as PKs.
And I'm not kidding.
It was a facility rule. I think they just wanted us off the field. Game ended on the kickoff. They put it over the head of the field player we had standing in goal.
We have played in other tournaments where they pulled a field player. You could pull whoever you wanted, but we never pulled a goalie. That worked really well.
Yeah, that's why I was annoyed reading it. That's a silly rule. Might as well just do sudden death PKs (not best of 5, just start at sudden victory in RD1)
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:18 pm
by Nonlinear FC
mister d wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:11 pm
Belgium seemed to not get the benefit of the calls today, eh?
Yeah, that non call late in the game was brutal.
(not gonna bring the stuff from upthread into this...)
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:23 pm
by tennbengal
mister d wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:11 pm
Belgium seemed to not get the benefit of the calls today, eh?
Indeed they did not.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:25 pm
by Nonlinear FC
We talked about this earlier, but just wanted to lay it out there... Someone went through and counted how bad FIFA is on stoppage time.
Time is added for injuries not necessarily stoppages.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:56 pm
by Nonlinear FC
degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:42 pm
Time is added for injuries not necessarily stoppages.
That's a holdover from when it used to be called Injury Time.
Law 7 - Duration of Match
3. Allowance for time lost - Allowance is made by the referee in each half for all time lost in that half through:
• substitutions
• assessment and/or removal of injured players
• wasting time
• disciplinary sanctions
• stoppages for drinks (which should not exceed one minute) or other medical reasons permitted by competition rules
• delays relating to VAR ‘checks’ and ‘reviews’
• any other cause, including any significant delay to a restart (e.g. goal celebrations)
The fourth official indicates the minimum additional time decided by the referee at the end of the final minute of each half. The additional time may be increased by the referee but not reduced.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:57 pm
by Nonlinear FC
So when I was going off about this issue the other day, it wasn't just that they scored late and then Japan kicked off and blew the whistle, it was that there was NO WAY the ref accounted for all the stuff that happened in the last 3 or 4 minutes of stoppage.
And I really think one of the reasons there's not more outrage (or whatever) about this issue is this common misperception that it's just supposed to be for injuries.
It's supposed to cover just about anything beyond the normal run of play. A guy taking a few seconds to collect himself after a foul is one thing. The bullshit with Umtiti today was a joke.
And the announcers not understanding that he was gaming the system... That's where I'll put my hand up and apologize for the embarrassing naivete of Americans when it comes to this stuff.
We've come to a point in this country where we're SO freaked out about concussions that we can't see anything other than disaster every time there's a blow to the head. I've been knocked around a decent amount, taken some shots. Not EVERY head knock is concussion. And it sure doesn't always warrant 2 minutes on the ground, coming out of the game, re-entering and then falling back onto the turf 30 seconds later.
He took close to 3 minutes out of the game with that shit. At least. Think about 3 minutes in any other sport. People would lose their fucking minds.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:21 pm
by mister d
3 minutes in any other sport and they'd go to commercial.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:40 pm
by Nonlinear FC
Yeah, I mean the counterpoint to this stuff is that with timeouts and TV timeouts, the last 4 minutes of a college basketball game can take 20 minutes.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:42 pm
by sancarlos
Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:40 pm
Yeah, I mean the counterpoint to this stuff is that with timeouts and TV timeouts, the last 4 minutes of a college basketball game can take 20 minutes.
Yeah, if they handled the clock in basketball the way they do in soccer, stoppage time would last longer than regular time.
I mean, at this point, it HAS to end with England getting beat by Fucking France on penalties, right? That's gotta be the most gut punch way for England to blow it.
Re: World Cup 2018 Knock Out Rounds
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:41 am
by Giff
So, I watched nearly all the matches while on vacation and am now officially hooked on soccer. Now to pick a team to follow next season.