The Swamp

Gay.

I'll separate this from the NBA thread since it's likely to turn into a longer discussion.

So this is apparently the Jackie Robinson moment everyone's been waiting for. My reaction: good for him, but still, he's a marginal player nearing the end of his career and there's a strong possibility he won't play in the NBA again. Don't mean to rain on anyone's parade* but this is a world apart from a star player in the middle of his prime doing the same.

*(Get it? Because they like to have parades...)

Technically, for it to be a 'Jackie Robinson' moment, wouldn't said athlete have to BEGIN their career openly gay? It's not like the year before Jackie retired he held a press conference and said, "Oh, by the way, I am black"

Seems to me if you want it to have the impact you're looking for, it has to happen at the beginning of a career, and not thrown out there as a "Guess what? I've been gay the whole time, so there!".

Also, Brittany Griner said she was gay two weeks ago and no one gave a shit. I know it's the WNBA, but I'd wager that more people know Brittany Griner than they do Jason Collins.

There is a self-identified "scientist" in the comments making grand conclusions based on the fact Jason Collins has a hetero twin brother.

Brontoburglar wrote:Also, Brittany Griner said she was gay two weeks ago and no one gave a shit. I know it's the WNBA, but I'd wager that more people know Brittany Griner than they do Jason Collins.

I actually think that the Griner story was underrated. Sure, it's well known that many female athletes are gay, but most wait until the late stages of their careers to go public. Griner doing so at the start of her pro career, when she's the most talked about female basketball player in a while, is a pretty significant shift, even if it didn't get a massive amount of notice.

Its presumed in womens hoops. Exact opposite for the men. Good for him though. Guys aren't exactly beating his door down at his age but it might cost him some money. Its a lot easier with a full wallet after 10 yrs of NBA paychecks but still. Will at least start the discussion so the college kid might feel comfortable.

Brittney Griner could have said she was a practicing Nazi and still have been the number one WNBA pick.

I'm cynical sometimes so take this with a grain of salt, but I wonder if it wasn't calculated (the timing) to try and ensure that he's signed by someone this offseason. It's kind of a no-lose situation for him now -- either he isn't signed by anyone and he becomes a kind of martyr for gay rights or some NBA team will take a flyer on him to prove that they're gay-friendly.

The worst part is that him not being signed isn't proof that NBA teams wouldn't welcome a gay player. Like someone said, it would be a lot more meaningful if it wasn't a role player in the extreme twilight of his career.

ZMan wrote:Technically, for it to be a 'Jackie Robinson' moment, wouldn't said athlete have to BEGIN their career openly gay? It's not like the year before Jackie retired he held a press conference and said, "Oh, by the way, I am black"

Seems to me if you want it to have the impact you're looking for, it has to happen at the beginning of a career, and not thrown out there as a "Guess what? I've been gay the whole time, so there!".

Agreed. But I also think being a gay athlete, and by specifically coming out as gay right from the beginning of a career, first has to become more widely acceptable in a mainstream individual sport if anything is really going to change. Like Golf or Tennis. Or even NASCAR; something large-scale. Once there are a few gay (male) athletes that become popular and commonplace, it won't be so much of a big deal in the big team sports (NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL). Or at least less of such a big deal. Because right now it is still a locker room issue as much as than anything.

HaulCitgo wrote:Its presumed in womens hoops. Exact opposite for the men. Good for him though. Guys aren't exactly beating his door down at his age but it might cost him some money. Its a lot easier with a full wallet after 10 yrs of NBA paychecks but still. Will at least start the discussion so the college kid might feel comfortable.

I agree with this. For Griner to come out - well, somebody titled that one, "the Duh thread" for a reason. It was barely news at all.

While I agree that Collins' statement isn't a Jackie Robinson moment, and it may be cynically calculated as Brian noted - still, let's not mimimize it. It's still a lot bigger step than John Amaechi's step, as Collins is a name fans know, he's had a long solid career, and he still hopes to continue his playing. It's a big deal.

I think he's brave, because he is exposing himself to possible abuse, and I salute him.

sancarlos wrote:I think he's brave, because he is exposing himself to possible abuse, and I salute him.

Ayup.

sancarlos wrote:

HaulCitgo wrote:Its presumed in womens hoops. Exact opposite for the men. Good for him though. Guys aren't exactly beating his door down at his age but it might cost him some money. Its a lot easier with a full wallet after 10 yrs of NBA paychecks but still. Will at least start the discussion so the college kid might feel comfortable.

I agree with this. For Griner to come out - well, somebody titled that one, "the Duh thread" for a reason. It was barely news at all.

While I agree that Collins' statement isn't a Jackie Robinson moment, and it may be cynically calculated as Brian noted - still, let's not mimimize it. It's still a lot bigger step than John Amaechi's step, as Collins is a name fans know, he's had a long solid career, and he still hopes to continue his playing. It's a big deal.

I think he's brave, because he is exposing himself to possible abuse, and I salute him.

And that's my point. Our society has become one that it's not stunning for a female athlete to be gay and it's almost expected at times.

Yeah, I saw the news on the TV at the gym and was pretty excited about it. It's a big deal. Then I learned that he's not really on a team right now. That definitely lessens the impact.

Don't get me wrong, it's a big deal and it's a step toward a young, active player coming out, but I was hoping this was that moment. I had forgotten how old the Collins twins are.

BTW, as for out female athletes - Martina Navratilova was basically out 30+ years ago and she was arguably the biggest female athlete in the world.

This part stunned me:

Collins said that he told his brother during a breakfast meeting last summer.

"He never suspected. So much for twin telepathy," Collins wrote. "But by dinner that night, he was full of brotherly love. For the first time in our lives, he wanted to step in and protect me."

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/92236 ... ive-player" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He must have had a hell of a closet.

I think it was a very well written piece. Everything he said was exactly what needed to be said. (and so articulate!

You can't really blame him for not being a bigger star (not that anyone here is), but I think more than anything this will be remember more as the opening of the floodgates. From what I've heard there a lot of players, stars or not, that just didn't want to be "the first".

Brontoburglar wrote:

sancarlos wrote:

HaulCitgo wrote:Its presumed in womens hoops. Exact opposite for the men. Good for him though. Guys aren't exactly beating his door down at his age but it might cost him some money. Its a lot easier with a full wallet after 10 yrs of NBA paychecks but still. Will at least start the discussion so the college kid might feel comfortable.

I agree with this. For Griner to come out - well, somebody titled that one, "the Duh thread" for a reason. It was barely news at all.

While I agree that Collins' statement isn't a Jackie Robinson moment, and it may be cynically calculated as Brian noted - still, let's not mimimize it. It's still a lot bigger step than John Amaechi's step, as Collins is a name fans know, he's had a long solid career, and he still hopes to continue his playing. It's a big deal.

I think he's brave, because he is exposing himself to possible abuse, and I salute him.

And that's my point. Our society has become one that it's not stunning for a female athlete to be gay and it's almost expected at times.

This is because the gay hating shit is a direct result of religion and these fundamentalists that are constantly preaching about it are also usually misogynistic men that only care about influencing the male adults in their congregations and then letting them just use their authority over the family to influence their families. When bashing the gay, these guys are almost always talking about men because there's a good chance that the men will at the very least think it's a little icky. If they talk about lesbian sex, there's a good chance that it will backfire and turn them on instead of off.

Hell, I thought everyone at Stanford was gay.

So Mike Wallace chimed in. His tweet, paraphrased-ish:

"With so many beautiful women in the world, dudes still wanna mess with other dudes SMH..." (shaking my head)

Because they are gay, Mike. Hope that clears that up!

What, there's no fabulous men out there?

Why would the women in turn want to mess with those men, Mike?

And on that religious note, Chris Broussard might cost himself an ESPN gig: Being Gay Is "An Open Rebellion To God"

By the way, the best line I saw on this today was by Josh Greenman: "Wizards fans, it doesn't get better."

Also, on the cynical front, most NBA guys I've read say Collins was already all but guaranteed an NBA bench spot given the lack of NBA bench big men, and the fact that he's in great shape and a pro's pro.

ETA: Though yes, I was cynical too.

garyclark wrote:he's in great shape

Well, he IS gay.

Martina Navratilova comments about Jason Collins. It includes a Donte Stallworth reference!

Icepenis wrote:Why would the women in turn want to mess with those men, Mike?

I've asked myself that question for my whole adult life...

You know, I've never bought the whole notion that a locker room would be a hostile place for an out gay athlete. Sure, you can always get some athletes to take the bait and say they'd never coexist with a gay teammate, but in reality, it would be fine. Every team has players who are different, who don't agree on many things, who even hate each other. But it works out. That's part of being a team. Guys will adapt to whatever they have to, because it eventually boils down to actually playing the game and being teammates.

We've already seen this in a number of high school and college locker rooms. There's no reason to think a pro locker room would be any different.

Pretty gay that it took him so long. We shoulda known.

Sabo wrote:Martina Navratilova comments about Jason Collins. It includes a Donte Stallworth reference!

The Stallworth reference was a 180 from what I expected. Damn. When the article started with, "Donte Stallworth approached me [Martina Navratilova] at a gas station..." I cringed. Instead, he told her about some group could Athlete Ally that he joined, which supports gay athletes to feel comfortable in coming out. Shocking. I don't really know why I feel as strongly as I do about this topic, but as I've said in other threads, the thought of people not being able to come out and living in fear of people discovering their sexuality makes me feel so angry. Angry for the people who have to waste so much of their lives in fear of being found out, wasting time that they should be happily dating without fear of getting caught. And anger towards the judgmental (especially you Christian bigots take not of the word "judgmental") fuckers who cause gay and lesbian people to live in fear.

I am really excited that we have moved to a point where NFL players openly support gay athletes without much negative reaction. The positive reaction far outweighs the negative, and the few negative responses get crushed for being homophobic idiots. I don't think the NFL is quite ready for an openly gay draft pick out of college, but we are getting there. I think if a star or highly respected leader on a team, or even an established player came out during the middle of his career, most players would be ok with it. I can see a lot of players not being comfortable showering with him, though. And there are still a lot of religious guys in the NFL that would probably protest, but I think we are getting closer to acceptance. The response from the soccer world to Robbie Rogers shows that MLS could probably deal with an openly gay player, and Euro teams seemed pretty supportive, too.

Shirley wrote:Guys will adapt to whatever they have to, because it eventually boils down to actually playing the game and being teammates.

And getting paid.

Although we like to dress it up as something different at times, playing professional sports is still an occupation, an occupation that has a workplace. And people, males, are open or matter-of-fat about being gay in many a workplace; pro sports should not be any different. Pro sports is also an entertainment industry; the other side of the entertainment industry certainly has no problem with openly gay males, in fact the number of openly gay males in the entertainment industry is staggeringly disproportional to the rest of the world.

Scottie wrote:

Shirley wrote:Guys will adapt to whatever they have to, because it eventually boils down to actually playing the game and being teammates.

And getting paid.

Although we like to dress it up as something different at times, playing professional sports is still an occupation, an occupation that has a workplace. And people, males, are open or matter-of-fat about being gay in many a workplace; pro sports should not be any different. Pro sports is also an entertainment industry; the other side of the entertainment industry certainly has no problem with openly gay males, in fact the number of openly gay males in the entertainment industry is staggeringly disproportional to the rest of the world.

I agree with you in principle, but there are a couple differences with pro athletes. In their job, they get nekkid in a confined space with their coworkers and shower with them. No typical in most workplaces. Physical contact is also a necessary component in most sports, which while I don't have a problem with it, a lot of guys do. Federal Law doesn't recognize gender identity as a protected class in employment discrimination cases, and very few states do either, so in most states, an employer can fire or discriminate against an employee solely because they are gay.

Yeah I don't really think the two entertainment industries are close in anything other than name value, but I am 100% on board with being a professional athlete is an occupation. The hardcore fans care about the results far more than just about all players, I noticed. It's a job, plain and simple. That's why they take the most money they can get. No one faults a lawyer for doing it, so why would Steeler fans hate on Mike Wallace or James Harrison*?


*Other than saying he made a dumb move financially, which he did. Ok /threadjack

The Sybian wrote:In their job, they get nekkid in a confined space with their coworkers and shower with them. No typical in most workplaces. Physical contact is also a necessary component in most sports, which while I don't have a problem with it, a lot of guys do.

Aren't the days of open prison-style showers long gone? Don't modern facilities have individual stalls now?

The Sybian wrote:Federal Law doesn't recognize gender identity as a protected class in employment discrimination cases, and very few states do either, so in most states, an employer can fire or discriminate against an employee solely because they are gay.

You mean sexual orientation, right? Homosexuality is not a gender. Although we had a Prime Minister up here that thought it was but that was simply out of ignorance (there was much about the world about which he was utterly baffled).

I sometimes forget my American workplaces, or at least they get overshadowed by what I've grown used to in Canada over the last few years. If an employer in Canada, any employer, fired an employee solely because they were gay, they'd be fucked. Fucked.

Don't get me wrong, most of what I"m saying is Devil's advocate (you know that) and as with the Gay Marriage thread, we're all pretty much on the same page here. Or at least somewhere in the same chapter.

I think lost in the whole Jason Collins thing is that his high school basketball teammate was actor Jason Segel (How I Met Your Mother). Until I know about how he felt taking high school showers with Collins, I don't have an opinion.

I've only seen one of their penises and it's not the gay one. Weird!

Icepenis wrote:I've only seen one of their penises and it's not the gay one. Weird!

Do he do full frontal in a movie, or did he ask GPJ to autograph it?

Scottie wrote:

The Sybian wrote:In their job, they get nekkid in a confined space with their coworkers and shower with them. No typical in most workplaces. Physical contact is also a necessary component in most sports, which while I don't have a problem with it, a lot of guys do.

Aren't the days of open prison-style showers long gone? Don't modern facilities have individual stalls now?

The Sybian wrote:Federal Law doesn't recognize gender identity as a protected class in employment discrimination cases, and very few states do either, so in most states, an employer can fire or discriminate against an employee solely because they are gay.

You mean sexual orientation, right? Homosexuality is not a gender. Although we had a Prime Minister up here that thought it was but that was simply out of ignorance (there was much about the world about which he was utterly baffled).

I sometimes forget my American workplaces, or at least they get overshadowed by what I've grown used to in Canada over the last few years. If an employer in Canada, any employer, fired an employee solely because they were gay, they'd be fucked. Fucked.

Don't get me wrong, most of what I"m saying is Devil's advocate (you know that) and as with the Gay Marriage thread, we're all pretty much on the same page here. Or at least somewhere in the same chapter.

Yeah, I meant sexual orientation. Enormous difference there, but work isn't always conducive to thinking and Swamping with the damned phones ringing, distracting me from my posts. It is heinous how employers are legally allowed to abuse workers based on their sexual orientation. Sexual orientation should be treated like race wrt equal rights protection in the workplace. Discrimination shouldn't be tolerated just because some asshats believe the Bible says it is an abomination somewhere buried in 1000s of pages of gibberish.

The Sybian wrote:

Icepenis wrote:I've only seen one of their penises and it's not the gay one. Weird!

Do he do full frontal in a movie, or did he ask GPJ to autograph it?

He's done full frontal in like 3 or 4 movies. Most of them other than The Muppets.

The Sybian wrote:Yeah, I meant sexual orientation. Enormous difference there, but work isn't always conducive to thinking and Swamping with the damned phones ringing, distracting me from my posts. It is heinous how employers are legally allowed to abuse workers based on their sexual orientation. Sexual orientation should be treated like race wrt equal rights protection in the workplace. Discrimination shouldn't be tolerated just because some asshats believe the Bible says it is an abomination somewhere buried in 1000s of pages of gibberish.

My wife may be able to use this feature of American law to her advantage. She is the administrator of the lunch program at my kids' hippie co-op school. One of the women working in the kitchen had her hours reduced, mostly for being a flake for the past couple of years. She threatened to sue, claiming that her hours were reduced because she came out as a lesbian a few months ago (she had previously been married to a guy).

It's complete bullshit, since parents at the school are coming out as gay all the time. But it doesn't even matter because sexual orientation is not subject to protection against discrimination. So the claim isn't going to go anywhere anyway.