Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Okay . . . let's try this again.

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degenerasian
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by degenerasian » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:35 am

Johnnie wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:38 am
Man, I mean it's interesting to still see that there is an argument to be made that Trump isn't compromised.

I completely and totally disagree with it because I'm reading everything I can just to see how intricate the network is and looking at things like "indictments and convictions within Trump's circle by Mueller" as a testament of things to come.

But it's still interesting to see.

I mean, sure you could slice the president firing the FBI director because of "the Russia thing" and then inviting Russians into the oval office the next day and only allowing Russian media into it as a bunch of circumstantial evidence -- amongst literally everything else.

But as a dude with a security clearance who has to be investigated to maintain it, the slightest hint of impropriety could sink me. Seeing every single red flag exist and it not lead to something at this point is unthinkable to me.

Is it because Trump came into the presidency from the outside so all the security clearances and mechanisms aren't in place for him and it's taking this long to unravel the entire network of collusion?

You entered the military as a trainee and have a security record from day 1 that is investigated regularily . So do other past presidents.
Trump is an outlier?
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Joe K » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:01 pm

tennbengal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:45 am
Okey dokie.
If I’m wrong, and it’s already clear that there was criminal collusion between Trump and Russia, can we at least agree that Trump, Don Jr., Kushner, Bannon, et al. will be indicted any day now?

Because surely Mueller wouldn’t allow a known Russian asset to remain as President of the US and Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on Earth for even a day longer than necessary, right?

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by EnochRoot » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:56 pm

Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:01 pm
tennbengal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:45 am
Okey dokie.
If I’m wrong, and it’s already clear that there was criminal collusion between Trump and Russia, can we at least agree that Trump, Don Jr., Kushner, Bannon, et al. will be indicted any day now?

Because surely Mueller wouldn’t allow a known Russian asset to remain as President of the US and Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on Earth for even a day longer than necessary, right?
What powers do special counsels have in your world?

Back to the tinfoil hat dot connecting I dumped from Reddit last night: why do you insist that Putin needed to have some master plan from the outset, beyond finding an idiot, American millionaire who is in financial arrears to launder dirty Russian money through? The status of the Soviet Union is really of little consequence, except to say that Putin would’ve known a lot more about its financial realities that you or I would.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Joe K » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:09 pm

EnochRoot wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:56 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:01 pm
tennbengal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:45 am
Okey dokie.
If I’m wrong, and it’s already clear that there was criminal collusion between Trump and Russia, can we at least agree that Trump, Don Jr., Kushner, Bannon, et al. will be indicted any day now?

Because surely Mueller wouldn’t allow a known Russian asset to remain as President of the US and Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on Earth for even a day longer than necessary, right?
What powers do special counsels have in your world?
While there’s a constitutional debate about whether a sitting President can be indicted, Mueller most definitely has the authority to indict anyone else from Trump’s circle. That’s true both “in my world” and in anyone else’s. So again, if criminal collusion is a proven fact, It begs the question as to why it hasn’t resulted in any charges yet.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by EnochRoot » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:26 pm

Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:09 pm
EnochRoot wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:56 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:01 pm
tennbengal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:45 am
Okey dokie.
If I’m wrong, and it’s already clear that there was criminal collusion between Trump and Russia, can we at least agree that Trump, Don Jr., Kushner, Bannon, et al. will be indicted any day now?

Because surely Mueller wouldn’t allow a known Russian asset to remain as President of the US and Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on Earth for even a day longer than necessary, right?
What powers do special counsels have in your world?
While there’s a constitutional debate about whether a sitting President can be indicted, Mueller most definitely has the authority to indict anyone else from Trump’s circle. That’s true both “in my world” and in anyone else’s. So again, if criminal collusion is a proven fact, It begs the question as to why it hasn’t resulted in any charges yet.
I think it’s just as likely the truth is more damaging to America’s stability than “there’s nothing there.” Don’t assume the charges would stop at the feet of Trump, either.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by tennbengal » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:29 pm

EnochRoot wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:26 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:09 pm
EnochRoot wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:56 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:01 pm
tennbengal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:45 am
Okey dokie.
If I’m wrong, and it’s already clear that there was criminal collusion between Trump and Russia, can we at least agree that Trump, Don Jr., Kushner, Bannon, et al. will be indicted any day now?

Because surely Mueller wouldn’t allow a known Russian asset to remain as President of the US and Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on Earth for even a day longer than necessary, right?
What powers do special counsels have in your world?
While there’s a constitutional debate about whether a sitting President can be indicted, Mueller most definitely has the authority to indict anyone else from Trump’s circle. That’s true both “in my world” and in anyone else’s. So again, if criminal collusion is a proven fact, It begs the question as to why it hasn’t resulted in any charges yet.
I think it’s just as likely the truth is more damaging to America’s stability than “there’s nothing there.” Don’t assume the charges would stop at the feet of Trump, either.
This.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Joe K » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:07 pm

tennbengal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:29 pm
EnochRoot wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:26 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:09 pm
EnochRoot wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:56 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:01 pm
tennbengal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:45 am
Okey dokie.
If I’m wrong, and it’s already clear that there was criminal collusion between Trump and Russia, can we at least agree that Trump, Don Jr., Kushner, Bannon, et al. will be indicted any day now?

Because surely Mueller wouldn’t allow a known Russian asset to remain as President of the US and Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on Earth for even a day longer than necessary, right?
What powers do special counsels have in your world?
While there’s a constitutional debate about whether a sitting President can be indicted, Mueller most definitely has the authority to indict anyone else from Trump’s circle. That’s true both “in my world” and in anyone else’s. So again, if criminal collusion is a proven fact, It begs the question as to why it hasn’t resulted in any charges yet.
I think it’s just as likely the truth is more damaging to America’s stability than “there’s nothing there.” Don’t assume the charges would stop at the feet of Trump, either.
This.
So the truth is so damaging that Mueller can’t reveal it. But at the same time, he’s going to stay quiet and allow Trump to remain the world’s most powerful man. Got it. I was wondering what the Russiagate spin would be if the much awaited bombshells never come, but that exceeds even my best imagination.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by EnochRoot » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:24 pm

Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:07 pm
tennbengal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:29 pm
EnochRoot wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:26 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:09 pm
EnochRoot wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:56 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:01 pm


If I’m wrong, and it’s already clear that there was criminal collusion between Trump and Russia, can we at least agree that Trump, Don Jr., Kushner, Bannon, et al. will be indicted any day now?

Because surely Mueller wouldn’t allow a known Russian asset to remain as President of the US and Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on Earth for even a day longer than necessary, right?
What powers do special counsels have in your world?
While there’s a constitutional debate about whether a sitting President can be indicted, Mueller most definitely has the authority to indict anyone else from Trump’s circle. That’s true both “in my world” and in anyone else’s. So again, if criminal collusion is a proven fact, It begs the question as to why it hasn’t resulted in any charges yet.
I think it’s just as likely the truth is more damaging to America’s stability than “there’s nothing there.” Don’t assume the charges would stop at the feet of Trump, either.
This.
So the truth is so damaging that Mueller can’t reveal it. But at the same time, he’s going to stay quiet and allow Trump to remain the world’s most powerful man. Got it. I was wondering what the Russiagate spin would be if the much awaited bombshells never come, but that exceeds even my best imagination.
RussiaGate spin.

OK.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Johnnie » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:39 pm

*RussiaLago

Leave "-gate" to a criminal president when the criminality is quaint by comparison.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by The Sybian » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:39 pm

Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:33 am

And frankly, with all due respect to people on this board, I find the theory that the Trump-Russia conspiracy goes back to the 1980s to be asinine. The USSR must’ve had a crystal ball or a time machine to plot the seeds of a decades-long conspiracy that could withstand the major subsequent political changes on both sides of the Atlantic, including you know, the whole Fall of the Soviet Union. I would love to see the KGB memo hatching this plot:

“Our entire political system is on the verge of collapse, and the reorganization of our economy is about to be turned over to the West. In 5 years, there won’t even be a KGB. But let’s talk to this buffoonish real estate magnet about some hotel deals so that in the event that American politics destabilizes as a result of lost manufacturing jobs, endless wars, and crippling income inequality, we can make our move.”

I think it’s evident that Mueller is running a thorough investigation and I’ll change my mind if he actually charges any criminal conduct between Trump’s campaign and Russia. But, for all the breathless headlines and conspiracy theories, that hasn’t happened yet.
You are missing the greater point of how the Russians/Soviets used Trump. They didn't run an enormous campaign on one American businessman, they approached 100s, and I'm sure made deals and used dozens of others who were greedy enough to partner with them. Of course in the 1980s they had no idea Trump would eventually become President. Recent reporting shows they used Trump to push Soviet propaganda in newspapers. They used Trump's name to back paid advertorials pushing propaganda. They also used Trump properties to launder money. First people tied to the Soviet government, then Russian and Kazakhstani mafia, then Russian oligarchs tied to Putin, who are basically Russian mafia backed by the government. The Russians/Soviets operated by setting traps or enticing pretty much every rich or powerful American who ever went to Russia, just in case it could eventually come in use. Trump has been obsessed with putting a building in Moscow since the 1980s, and telling him he could put his name on the tallest building in Moscow? Of course that fed his ego and drove him.

Did you watch the Rachel Maddow videos someone posted up thread? Whether Trump understands it or not, he is peddling bizarre Russian propaganda. His comments about the Soviets being correct to invade Afghanistan because of terror attacks that never occurred? That is exactly the words Putin is using to rewrite history. His bizarre comments about Montenegrins being vicious people and liable to start WWIII? Straight out of Putin's propaganda to make NATO question partnering with more countries. I don't doubt Trump has no clue about the propaganda he is repeating for Putin, but he is pushing bizarre pro-Russia propaganda. Maybe it is as simple as Putin told him these things in their private meeting where Trump made the interpreter burn his notes and vow not to disclose anything discussed to any cabinet members, and Trump repeated this statement, because he knows nothing about anything, heard the reporter ask about Montenegro, and he repeated the only thing he ever heard about Montenegro. Even assuming all of the innocence on Trump, it is still shocking and extremely dangerous to have the US President repeating Putin's propaganda publicly.

At this point, it is certain that Trump continued working on a deal for Trump Tower Moscow long after he declared he was running for President. Rudy acknowledged Trump continued discussions in November 2016. Is this illegal? Maybe not, but it sure as fuck carries the appearance of impropriety, especially when Trump drastically altered the GOP platform to a suddenly pro-Russia position regarding the Ukraine, and Trump suddenly takes a ton of interest in repealing the Magnitsky Act sanctions. Keep in mind, Putin is very likely the richest man in the world, but most of his wealth is illegally obtained, and the Magnitsky Act sanctions froze Billions in assets belonging to Putin. Unless Putin pushed this on Trump, why else would Trump care about it?
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by The Sybian » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:52 pm

Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:01 pm
tennbengal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:45 am
Okey dokie.
If I’m wrong, and it’s already clear that there was criminal collusion between Trump and Russia, can we at least agree that Trump, Don Jr., Kushner, Bannon, et al. will be indicted any day now?

Because surely Mueller wouldn’t allow a known Russian asset to remain as President of the US and Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on Earth for even a day longer than necessary, right?
Just curious, but do you think Trump is completely innocent of any Russian collusion, or are you just reserving judgment until you see proof of collusion? I have been under the assumption that you are reserving judgment, and disagreeing with us jumping to conclusion based on overhyped journalism, but now it sounds like you think Trump is innocent. I'll concede that there hasn't been a "smoking gun" publicly revealed, but we have a fucking mountain of circumstantial evidence, and if Mueller has a smoking gun, I don't think we would know yet. Yes, it's frustrating that this is taking so long, but if he Mueller is going to come out with a report showing the President colluded with Russia to win the election or advance Russian interests, he needs to damn well have every I dotted and T crossed, so it will take a long time, and he can't act until he has everything wrapped up perfectly. Look at Trump's base, they won't accept any fact showing Trump to be less than perfect, so what would happen if Mueller released a report saying Trump is a Russian agent? That will almost certainly lead to the biggest crisis since the Civil War.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by The Sybian » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:06 pm

degenerasian wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:35 am
Johnnie wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:38 am
Man, I mean it's interesting to still see that there is an argument to be made that Trump isn't compromised.

I completely and totally disagree with it because I'm reading everything I can just to see how intricate the network is and looking at things like "indictments and convictions within Trump's circle by Mueller" as a testament of things to come.

But it's still interesting to see.

I mean, sure you could slice the president firing the FBI director because of "the Russia thing" and then inviting Russians into the oval office the next day and only allowing Russian media into it as a bunch of circumstantial evidence -- amongst literally everything else.

But as a dude with a security clearance who has to be investigated to maintain it, the slightest hint of impropriety could sink me. Seeing every single red flag exist and it not lead to something at this point is unthinkable to me.

Is it because Trump came into the presidency from the outside so all the security clearances and mechanisms aren't in place for him and it's taking this long to unravel the entire network of collusion?

You entered the military as a trainee and have a security record from day 1 that is investigated regularily . So do other past presidents.
Trump is an outlier?
The rules that apply to Federal government employees apparently don't apply to the President. It's never been an issue, because every other nominee voluntarily submitted financial disclosures and removed themselves from business interests that created potential conflicts. A janitor working for the federal government has to go through a rigorous background investigation, and if they have unusually large debts, they won't get hired, because this creates an opportunity for the person to become susceptible to a bribe or blackmail. The President is known to have large loans taken from Chinese and Russian government run banks, think that's a problem? If nothing else, I really hope Congress changes these requirements from norms to laws, as it is completely insane that a President doesn't have to release financial disclosures or divest private business interests that create a conflict of interests in his role as President. I know I keep repeating this, but my background investigation took 8 months because I went to Russia as an exchange student in High School. It was after the fall of the Soviet Union, but they still were hung up on it. I went with my HS Russian teacher, and didn't know she moved after retiring. They really grilled me over that for weeks, acting like he didn't believe me, but fuck, how many of you know where your HS teachers moved to after they retired?

This goes beyond Trump, as the President has no security clearance investigation. He is elected. What really pisses me off is that Jared kept his clearance for so long. He lied dozens of times, which is a felony on those forms. Any other person would have been convicted for the shit he lied about and omitted. Then you have Ivanka, who has access to secret information, but wasn't subjected to clearance, as she doesn't have an official title. Trump has exposed so many holes in the system, and I fucking hope something is done to close all these holes, so a competent President can't exploit them.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Johnnie » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:58 pm

Yeah, Syb fucking nailed it on all points.

Also, note the timeline. The story that led to what was released on Friday happened before Mueller was appointed and everything the FBI found out was turned over to him.

We just now learned about it. I

Now it goes back to Joe's point that if Mueller knows something maybe he should shut everything down. But maybe there's more we don't know that serves as a perfectly good reason why we haven't.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by tennbengal » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:26 pm

The Sybian wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:52 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:01 pm
tennbengal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:45 am
Okey dokie.
If I’m wrong, and it’s already clear that there was criminal collusion between Trump and Russia, can we at least agree that Trump, Don Jr., Kushner, Bannon, et al. will be indicted any day now?

Because surely Mueller wouldn’t allow a known Russian asset to remain as President of the US and Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on Earth for even a day longer than necessary, right?
Just curious, but do you think Trump is completely innocent of any Russian collusion, or are you just reserving judgment until you see proof of collusion? I have been under the assumption that you are reserving judgment, and disagreeing with us jumping to conclusion based on overhyped journalism, but now it sounds like you think Trump is innocent. I'll concede that there hasn't been a "smoking gun" publicly revealed, but we have a fucking mountain of circumstantial evidence, and if Mueller has a smoking gun, I don't think we would know yet. Yes, it's frustrating that this is taking so long, but if he Mueller is going to come out with a report showing the President colluded with Russia to win the election or advance Russian interests, he needs to damn well have every I dotted and T crossed, so it will take a long time, and he can't act until he has everything wrapped up perfectly. Look at Trump's base, they won't accept any fact showing Trump to be less than perfect, so what would happen if Mueller released a report saying Trump is a Russian agent? That will almost certainly lead to the biggest crisis since the Civil War.
All of this.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by EnochRoot » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:49 pm

Syb, thank you for going to great lengths detailing what has happened. Your attention to detail and willingness to go to great lengths to expound the points made are to be commended.
The Sybian wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:52 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:01 pm
tennbengal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:45 am
Okey dokie.
If I’m wrong, and it’s already clear that there was criminal collusion between Trump and Russia, can we at least agree that Trump, Don Jr., Kushner, Bannon, et al. will be indicted any day now?

Because surely Mueller wouldn’t allow a known Russian asset to remain as President of the US and Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on Earth for even a day longer than necessary, right?
Just curious, but do you think Trump is completely innocent of any Russian collusion, or are you just reserving judgment until you see proof of collusion? I have been under the assumption that you are reserving judgment, and disagreeing with us jumping to conclusion based on overhyped journalism, but now it sounds like you think Trump is innocent. I'll concede that there hasn't been a "smoking gun" publicly revealed, but we have a fucking mountain of circumstantial evidence, and if Mueller has a smoking gun, I don't think we would know yet. Yes, it's frustrating that this is taking so long, but if he Mueller is going to come out with a report showing the President colluded with Russia to win the election or advance Russian interests, he needs to damn well have every I dotted and T crossed, so it will take a long time, and he can't act until he has everything wrapped up perfectly. Look at Trump's base, they won't accept any fact showing Trump to be less than perfect, so what would happen if Mueller released a report saying Trump is a Russian agent? That will almost certainly lead to the biggest crisis since the Civil War.
Some rather erudite commenters over on TPM and KOS suggest a readying of the waters vibe going on.. and that's Trump wasn't just an unwitting agent. He was a witting one. And if that's the case...It'd be a crisis, to say the least.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Joe K » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:12 pm

The Sybian wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:52 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:01 pm
tennbengal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:45 am
Okey dokie.
If I’m wrong, and it’s already clear that there was criminal collusion between Trump and Russia, can we at least agree that Trump, Don Jr., Kushner, Bannon, et al. will be indicted any day now?

Because surely Mueller wouldn’t allow a known Russian asset to remain as President of the US and Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on Earth for even a day longer than necessary, right?
Just curious, but do you think Trump is completely innocent of any Russian collusion, or are you just reserving judgment until you see proof of collusion? I have been under the assumption that you are reserving judgment, and disagreeing with us jumping to conclusion based on overhyped journalism, but now it sounds like you think Trump is innocent. I'll concede that there hasn't been a "smoking gun" publicly revealed, but we have a fucking mountain of circumstantial evidence, and if Mueller has a smoking gun, I don't think we would know yet. Yes, it's frustrating that this is taking so long, but if he Mueller is going to come out with a report showing the President colluded with Russia to win the election or advance Russian interests, he needs to damn well have every I dotted and T crossed, so it will take a long time, and he can't act until he has everything wrapped up perfectly. Look at Trump's base, they won't accept any fact showing Trump to be less than perfect, so what would happen if Mueller released a report saying Trump is a Russian agent? That will almost certainly lead to the biggest crisis since the Civil War.
I don't know if Trump is innocent or not, but the more time that passes without any such indictments, the more my skepticism increases. And as for the circumstantial evidence, the way that's being viewed by Trump opponents has been colored by the assumption, going back almost 2.5 years now, that there will be a smoking gun. If your baseline assumption is that there is, in fact a fire, you're going to be a lot more likely to see smoke. Much of how Trump has acted towards Putin is consistent with how he's acted towards other right-wing authoritarians like Netanyahu, MBS, Erdogan, Duterte, etc. Moreover, there are also a number of concrete policy decisions the Trump Administration has taken -- like bombing Syrian government airfields, selling arms to Ukraine, and supporting European efforts to gain energy from non-Russian sources -- that are diametrically opposed to Russian interests. But because the fixed narrative has been that Trump is "Putin's puppet," all that stuff gets completely ignored when evaluating the weight of the circumstantial evidence.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Johnnie » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:01 pm

The "more time equals skepticism" position makes sense.

Up until you realize that Mueller doesn't leak and he's probably building an international conspiracy case enveloping the president of the United States, an entire political party, and a money laundering organization in the NRA. He has to do this while juggling the fact that the president has federal pardon powers, so parallel state level fail-safes need to be in place. This isn't exactly some shit you can solve in a weekend.

As for how we've reacted to things opposed to Russia? It's chaff. The current National Security Strategy (or National Defense Strategy I forget) was updated from Obama's and it ratchets up who our adversaries are definitively - Russia & China. Being in the military, it feels like we've maintained focus on that. Our contingency plans for things are...something. (And classified.) Though wasn't there a veto proof bill passed that put sanctions on Russia and he done none of it? That seems cute.

Honestly, everything has been political theater this entire time in some ways. That wacky president! What did he tweet today? Cool, did we get an order to nuke some random country? No? Cool.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Brontoburglar » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:14 pm

occam's razor seems necessary here
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by The Sybian » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:28 pm

Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:12 pm
The Sybian wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:52 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:01 pm
tennbengal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:45 am
Okey dokie.
If I’m wrong, and it’s already clear that there was criminal collusion between Trump and Russia, can we at least agree that Trump, Don Jr., Kushner, Bannon, et al. will be indicted any day now?

Because surely Mueller wouldn’t allow a known Russian asset to remain as President of the US and Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on Earth for even a day longer than necessary, right?
Just curious, but do you think Trump is completely innocent of any Russian collusion, or are you just reserving judgment until you see proof of collusion? I have been under the assumption that you are reserving judgment, and disagreeing with us jumping to conclusion based on overhyped journalism, but now it sounds like you think Trump is innocent. I'll concede that there hasn't been a "smoking gun" publicly revealed, but we have a fucking mountain of circumstantial evidence, and if Mueller has a smoking gun, I don't think we would know yet. Yes, it's frustrating that this is taking so long, but if he Mueller is going to come out with a report showing the President colluded with Russia to win the election or advance Russian interests, he needs to damn well have every I dotted and T crossed, so it will take a long time, and he can't act until he has everything wrapped up perfectly. Look at Trump's base, they won't accept any fact showing Trump to be less than perfect, so what would happen if Mueller released a report saying Trump is a Russian agent? That will almost certainly lead to the biggest crisis since the Civil War.
I don't know if Trump is innocent or not, but the more time that passes without any such indictments, the more my skepticism increases. And as for the circumstantial evidence, the way that's being viewed by Trump opponents has been colored by the assumption, going back almost 2.5 years now, that there will be a smoking gun. If your baseline assumption is that there is, in fact a fire, you're going to be a lot more likely to see smoke. Much of how Trump has acted towards Putin is consistent with how he's acted towards other right-wing authoritarians like Netanyahu, MBS, Erdogan, Duterte, etc. Moreover, there are also a number of concrete policy decisions the Trump Administration has taken -- like bombing Syrian government airfields, selling arms to Ukraine, and supporting European efforts to gain energy from non-Russian sources -- that are diametrically opposed to Russian interests. But because the fixed narrative has been that Trump is "Putin's puppet," all that stuff gets completely ignored when evaluating the weight of the circumstantial evidence.
OK, I understand your view, and even agree to a point. I don't expect there will be a definitive smoking gun, there almost never is. The sheer enormity of this investigation isn't possible to understand. We know of an enormous amount, and I'd bet it doesn't even scratch the surface of the breadth of the crimes they are investigating. Like Johnnie said, Mueller needs to wait for State crime investigations, because of the pardon power. They also need to do things in order, like get Veselnitskaya pinned as a Russian agent before they can charge those who met with her as conspiring with a Russian agent. I don't know how big Mueller's team is, but I'm sure they are severely understaffed.

I agree with you that many of us on this board jump on every story pointing to evidence of Trump crime, and tend to ignore evidence against a crime or retractions of stories that make Trump look bad. In almost any other case, I'd be with you in reserving judgment based on news reports, but Trump's actions, constant lies about Russia, and so many of his campaign team already being indicted an proven to have lied to cover up collusion, I find it extremely hard to believe he didn't collude with Russia. Hell, in his own words in the Lester Holt interview, he fired Comey "because of the Russia thing." Even if there was no collusion, Trump has given us numerous smoking guns for obstruction. As some reporter or podcaster said, Trump's Tweets and comments to reporters would be treated as a smoking gun if they were uncovered in an email or secret recording, but because he openly admits to crimes, it just floats by.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Giff » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:30 am

I've always wondered what JoeK looked like:

Image
Muh.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Joe K » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:42 am

Sick burn, buddy. If this were 2003, I’d be pretty hurt.

Giff, do you agree or disagree with my suggestion that if collusion is already an established fact that indictments of Trump’s inner circle are surely coming?

Or are you taking the remarkable position that Enoch Root and Bengal have apparently adopted that even if no such indictments ever come, it just means that Mueller has super secret reasons for letting a Russian asset remain the most powerful man in Earth?

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by EnochRoot » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:54 am

Joe K wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:42 am
Sick burn, buddy. If this were 2003, I’d be pretty hurt.

Giff, do you agree or disagree with my suggestion that if collusion is already an established fact that indictments of Trump’s inner circle are surely coming?

Or are you taking the remarkable position that Enoch Root and Bengal have apparently adopted that even if no such indictments ever come, it just means that Mueller has super secret reasons for letting a Russian asset remain the most powerful man in Earth?
You’re misrepresenting what I said. So you’re either intellectually dishonest, or just a provocateur?

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Giff » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:00 am

Joe K wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:42 am
Sick burn, buddy. If this were 2003, I’d be pretty hurt.

Giff, do you agree or disagree with my suggestion that if collusion is already an established fact that indictments of Trump’s inner circle are surely coming?

Or are you taking the remarkable position that Enoch Root and Bengal have apparently adopted that even if no such indictments ever come, it just means that Mueller has super secret reasons for letting a Russian asset remain the most powerful man in Earth?
Your suggestion seems to be that since there hasn't been any more (emphasis mine) indictments of Trump's inner circle, no more are coming. If I, along with everyone else on this thread, is misreading that, then my bad.
Muh.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by tennbengal » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:04 am

Also not what I said, JoeK.

I happen to think there are valid reasons for "OMG NO FURTHER INDICTMENTS YET" from Mueller, and they do include the possibility that Trump and those around him are Russian assets at this point. They also include other possibilities. But NOTHING about what Trump is doing in terms of Russia makes much sense outside of them either having him and bribing him or him actively working on their behest because it makes financial sense for him. Otherwise, it is beyond rational, and not a lot explains it that is remotely reasonable.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Joe K » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:09 am

EnochRoot wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:26 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:09 pm
EnochRoot wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:56 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:01 pm
tennbengal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:45 am
Okey dokie.
If I’m wrong, and it’s already clear that there was criminal collusion between Trump and Russia, can we at least agree that Trump, Don Jr., Kushner, Bannon, et al. will be indicted any day now?

Because surely Mueller wouldn’t allow a known Russian asset to remain as President of the US and Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on Earth for even a day longer than necessary, right?
What powers do special counsels have in your world?
While there’s a constitutional debate about whether a sitting President can be indicted, Mueller most definitely has the authority to indict anyone else from Trump’s circle. That’s true both “in my world” and in anyone else’s. So again, if criminal collusion is a proven fact, It begs the question as to why it hasn’t resulted in any charges yet.
I think it’s just as likely the truth is more damaging to America’s stability than “there’s nothing there.” Don’t assume the charges would stop at the feet of Trump, either.
Enoch: what am I misreading? Your response to my question that I bolded above sure seems to suggest that you would view an ultimate lack of indictments as a sign that Mueller is protecting America from a “damaging truth” rather than a sign that the collusion conspiracies ultimately could not be proven. You guys think I’m crazy for not believing an as-yet unproven conspiracy while at the same time saying that even a lack of indictments would not persuade you that maybe, just maybe, people jumped the gun on the Russian asset theory.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Joe K » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:13 am

Giff wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:00 am
Joe K wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:42 am
Sick burn, buddy. If this were 2003, I’d be pretty hurt.

Giff, do you agree or disagree with my suggestion that if collusion is already an established fact that indictments of Trump’s inner circle are surely coming?

Or are you taking the remarkable position that Enoch Root and Bengal have apparently adopted that even if no such indictments ever come, it just means that Mueller has super secret reasons for letting a Russian asset remain the most powerful man in Earth?
Your suggestion seems to be that since there hasn't been any more (emphasis mine) indictments of Trump's inner circle, no more are coming. If I, along with everyone else on this thread, is misreading that, then my bad.
This whole conversation with Bengal asking me, specifically, if collusion is now a proven fact. My response was two-fold:

1. No, I do not think it’s a proven fact.
2. If I’m wrong on point 1, then surely we can expect more indictments coming soon.

There obviously could be more evidence that’s not in the public record that establishes the conspiracy. But if it’s *already* been established it begs the question why there haven’t been more charges brought.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by EnochRoot » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:26 am

Joe K wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:09 am
EnochRoot wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:26 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:09 pm
EnochRoot wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:56 pm
Joe K wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:01 pm
tennbengal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:45 am
Okey dokie.
If I’m wrong, and it’s already clear that there was criminal collusion between Trump and Russia, can we at least agree that Trump, Don Jr., Kushner, Bannon, et al. will be indicted any day now?

Because surely Mueller wouldn’t allow a known Russian asset to remain as President of the US and Commander in Chief of the most powerful military on Earth for even a day longer than necessary, right?
What powers do special counsels have in your world?
While there’s a constitutional debate about whether a sitting President can be indicted, Mueller most definitely has the authority to indict anyone else from Trump’s circle. That’s true both “in my world” and in anyone else’s. So again, if criminal collusion is a proven fact, It begs the question as to why it hasn’t resulted in any charges yet.
I think it’s just as likely the truth is more damaging to America’s stability than “there’s nothing there.” Don’t assume the charges would stop at the feet of Trump, either.
Enoch: what am I misreading? Your response to my question that I bolded above sure seems to suggest that you would view an ultimate lack of indictments as a sign that Mueller is protecting America from a “damaging truth” rather than a sign that the collusion conspiracies ultimately could not be proven. You guys think I’m crazy for not believing an as-yet unproven conspiracy while at the same time saying that even a lack of indictments would not persuade you that maybe, just maybe, people jumped the gun on the Russian asset theory.
I was responding to the polarized position you implied re: collusion. Simple as that. I’m fully aware the truth is usually somewhere in the grays. However, I will say that the NRA’s funneling Russian money into the GOP is a huuuuuuge story that when it breaks, will dwarf Trump potentially being exiled to Elba.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by brian » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:07 pm

Vegas Golden Knights retired numbers:
#58 (To honor victims of 1 October shooting)

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Johnnie » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:07 pm

Totally something a guy would do that has no collusive tendencies with Russia. TOTALLY.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by EnochRoot » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:11 pm


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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Johnnie » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:22 pm

Abe Lincoln looking like he's suddenly agreeing with his assassination.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Nonlinear FC » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:24 pm

THIS is how we win in 2020 Smartly packaged, interactive reminders of the highlights of how fucked up this piece of fucking shit has been in just 2 years.

It's just too easy.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by brian » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:32 pm

I legitimately wish Fox News would respond with a similar list about Obama’s first two years because it would get hysterical near the end when they’re having to resort to stuff made by Alex Jones like him drinking human blood or something.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by sancarlos » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:36 pm

"What a bunch of pedantic pricks." - sybian

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Nonlinear FC » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:41 pm

brian wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:32 pm
I legitimately wish Fox News would respond with a similar list about Obama’s first two years because it would get hysterical near the end when they’re having to resort to stuff made by Alex Jones like him drinking human blood or something.
He's losing white, non-college educated males, man.

He. Is. Fucked.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by sancarlos » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:12 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:41 pm
brian wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:32 pm
I legitimately wish Fox News would respond with a similar list about Obama’s first two years because it would get hysterical near the end when they’re having to resort to stuff made by Alex Jones like him drinking human blood or something.
He's losing white, non-college educated males, man.

He. Is. Fucked.
I wish he would lose the rural white men. But they make up the bulk of the one-third of the country that will never abandon him.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Ryan » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:34 am

I will probably read this every day for a while

https://www.theroot.com/candace-owens-c ... 1831747613

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by rass » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:50 am

She’s basically a dumb Stacey Dash.
ouch
I felt aswirl with warm secretions.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by tennbengal » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:13 am

Ryan wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:34 am
I will probably read this every day for a while

https://www.theroot.com/candace-owens-c ... 1831747613
Yup. Thanks for that.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Pruitt » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:14 am

rass wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:50 am
She’s basically a dumb Stacey Dash.
ouch
makes a living as the low-IQ, pet negro who spends most of her time trolling black people between pursuing a dual career in shucking and jiving.
double ouch
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