Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

[The Sybian]

I don’t think Trump engaged in a criminal conspiracy with Russia in connection with the 2016 election. I don’t even think he wanted to win the election, so I find it unlikely that he would attempt such an audacious plot. And had be done so, I think at least one campaign operative would have been charged in connection with that. The Mueller investigation was nothing if not thorough.

As for obstruction of justice, all you need to do is read Trump’s Twitter feed to see that there’s an argument that he committed that offense. But given the DOJ guidance regarding indictments of sitting Presidents, and the fact that no one is going to be charged with an underlying conspiracy, I’m not surprised he won’t be charged with obstruction of justice.

I can't imagine Trump personally sat down with Russian government officials and devised a plot to steal the election, but I don't think there is any doubt people working for Trump acted in the interests of Russia, and I believe Trump new they were doing it. There are just way too many loose ends that are easily explained by a conspiracy with Russia.

1.) Paul Manafort: Here is a guy who hasn't worked in US politics for 20 years, but instead has been working with Putin puppets in the Ukraine. He is deeply in debt to Russian oligarchs, and suddenly decides to work for free as Trump's campaign chair? Then they drastically change the GOP platform out of the blue to a pro-Russia stance, and have a sudden hardon to repeal the Magnitsky Act and lift sanctions on Putin and his oligarch buddies so they can free up Billions of dollars? At best, Trump was shockingly negligent in hiring Manafort, and showed no judgment and no vetting. I knew exactly what Manafort was before Trump hired him, so it isn't possible Trump's people didn't know. Trump's political wrangler was Roger Stone and Stone and Manafort were partners for 20 years, so of course he knew exactly what Manafort was.

2.) The Trump Tower meeting. Vesilnitskaya was just convicted for lying in court that she was not a Russian agent. She was convicted and proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be a Russian government agent. Her sole job as an attorney for two years prior to the Trump Tower meeting was lobbying to repeal the Magnitsky Act. She was in Trump Tower to get the Trump team to agree to repeal Magnitsky. Junior, like the fucking moron he is, fully admitted this by saying they only talked about Russian adoptions, which was Putin's attempt to gain the sympathies of Americans by banning American's from adopting Russian babies as a retaliation to Magnitsky. We have emails where the Russians told Jr they have dirt on Hillary, and instead of calling the FBI, as any law abiding person would, he says "I love it!" and takes the meeting. That alone is a crime. Did Donald know? I'm sure he must have, but it probably can't be proven short of some major smoking gun.

3.) Roger Stone and Wikileaks... Sure seems like Stone knew exactly when Assange was dropping the DNC hacked emails, which were hacked by the GRU (formerly KGB) and warned Podesta it was his turn in the barrel, and Trump brazenly announced we would learn some very bad things about Hillary, which sure seems like a strange thing to say the day before the Wikileaks drop.

4.) We now Erik Prince illegally met with Russian agents in the UAE to set up back channel communications between Trump and Putin before Trump took office, which violates the Hatch Act.

5.) Trump's insistence on meeting privately with Putin and collecting the translator's notes and refusing to tell Tillerson or any other member of his Admin what was discussed. This is pure insanity, and his base love him because of his transparency!!! Any sane, innocent person would never do this while under investigation for potentially colluding with Russia. The optics of so fucking far off the charts, if you didn't have some nefarious purpose for meeting, you wouldn't!
5.a.) Meeting with Kislyak and the other guy,both known Russian spies, in the White House and allowing Russian media but excluding all US media, and bragging about firing the whack-job Comey for "refusing to drop the Russian thing."

6.) Trump defending Putin to insane levels, and saying he trusts Putin word over all 20-something US intelligence agencies analysis based on actual data.

7.) Trump lifting the sanctions on Oleg Deripaska for no apparent reason other than Deripaska is a Putin henchman and close associate of Manafort.

8.) All of the Trump allies and employees who lied about meeting with Russian agents. Then lied about why they met, ho many times they met...

9.) Trump undoubtedly lied about his ongoing talks with Russian officials about Trump Tower Moscow that went through the election. Fuck, we've seen the signed letter of intent, and Rudy said they met through November 2016.

10.) Trump has enormous loans, potentially $ Billions, from Russian bans which are all government owned. If only we saw his taxes...

11.) Trump has a long history of laundering money for Russian oligarchs and mafioso, who are basically the same as the government powers.

I could go on for hours...

Long story short, it's conceivable that Trump didn't plan on conspiring with Russia to win the election, but he sure as fuck knew his team was working with Russian agents for his personal benefit, be it the election or financial interests, and he willingly changed his platform on Russia and was suddenly very interested in lifting the Magnitsky Act sanctions. I'm not surprised Mueller couldn't definitively conclude Trump directly colluded, but there is no fucking way he is innocent.

[The Sybian]

Schiff fucking nails it! Scary that this speech is in response to members of the Intelligence Committee formally demanded Schiff step down, because he violated his Constitutional duties in having the audacity to act as a check on Presidential abuse of power.

Can't believe I left off Manafort giving campaign polling data to the GRU. This is probably the most under reported scandal. Manafort gave the GRU detailed information to help the GRU target their misinformation attacks. I wondered how they knew in so much detail where and how to target down to county-level details. There is just absolutely no way Manafort did not actively and intentionally work to help Russian Intelligence sway the election.

ETA: Also realized I forgot about Maria Boutina, the Russian spy who wormed her way into the NRA and helped the NRA funnel Russian government funds into the Trump campaign. She also somehow was chosen from a crowd to ask Trump a question that teed up his shift in Russian policy.

[Nonlinear FC]

300 page report --> 4 page summary

What are we even doing, guys?

This is absolutely not meant as a personal insult, but why are you guys so worried about convincing Joe that there's more to the report than what an obviously biased, hand-picked AG put out 48 hours after a 300 page (!) report got dropped very late on a Friday evening. Not even 48 hours, now that I think about it.

Total bullshit. Let the report's contents come out. And if they don't, just like Trump's taxes, we just hammer the ever-loving shit out of him and his GOP lackeys.

This was never going to be some Hail Mary. This was never going to sink (impeach) him, as I've been saying for close to 2 years. It's just a tool on the road to building the case for a massive victory in 2020. We have dozens upon dozens of misdeeds that are public record. We don't need him impeached, we just hammer home that he's corrupt and incompetent for the next 18 months.

But wrapping yourself in knots with people that have a vested interest in ignoring the bigger picture? (I guess... I'm truly not sure of the motive of being so vested in defending Trump or his campaign's actions at this point. I honestly don't really care, which is the whole point.)

[Nonlinear FC]

I don’t think Trump engaged in a criminal conspiracy with Russia in connection with the 2016 election. I don’t even think he wanted to win the election, so I find it unlikely that he would attempt such an audacious plot. And had be done so, I think at least one campaign operative would have been charged in connection with that. The Mueller investigation was nothing if not thorough.

As for obstruction of justice, all you need to do is read Trump’s Twitter feed to see that there’s an argument that he committed that offense. But given the DOJ guidance regarding indictments of sitting Presidents, and the fact that no one is going to be charged with an underlying conspiracy, I’m not surprised he won’t be charged with obstruction of justice.

I can't imagine Trump personally sat down with Russian government officials and devised a plot to steal the election, but I don't think there is any doubt people working for Trump acted in the interests of Russia, and I believe Trump new they were doing it. There are just way too many loose ends that are easily explained by a conspiracy with Russia.

1.) Paul Manafort: Here is a guy who hasn't worked in US politics for 20 years, but instead has been working with Putin puppets in the Ukraine. He is deeply in debt to Russian oligarchs, and suddenly decides to work for free as Trump's campaign chair? Then they drastically change the GOP platform out of the blue to a pro-Russia stance, and have a sudden hardon to repeal the Magnitsky Act and lift sanctions on Putin and his oligarch buddies so they can free up Billions of dollars? At best, Trump was shockingly negligent in hiring Manafort, and showed no judgment and no vetting. I knew exactly what Manafort was before Trump hired him, so it isn't possible Trump's people didn't know. Trump's political wrangler was Roger Stone and Stone and Manafort were partners for 20 years, so of course he knew exactly what Manafort was.

2.) The Trump Tower meeting. Vesilnitskaya was just convicted for lying in court that she was not a Russian agent. She was convicted and proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be a Russian government agent. Her sole job as an attorney for two years prior to the Trump Tower meeting was lobbying to repeal the Magnitsky Act. She was in Trump Tower to get the Trump team to agree to repeal Magnitsky. Junior, like the fucking moron he is, fully admitted this by saying they only talked about Russian adoptions, which was Putin's attempt to gain the sympathies of Americans by banning American's from adopting Russian babies as a retaliation to Magnitsky. We have emails where the Russians told Jr they have dirt on Hillary, and instead of calling the FBI, as any law abiding person would, he says "I love it!" and takes the meeting. That alone is a crime. Did Donald know? I'm sure he must have, but it probably can't be proven short of some major smoking gun.

3.) Roger Stone and Wikileaks... Sure seems like Stone knew exactly when Assange was dropping the DNC hacked emails, which were hacked by the GRU (formerly KGB) and warned Podesta it was his turn in the barrel, and Trump brazenly announced we would learn some very bad things about Hillary, which sure seems like a strange thing to say the day before the Wikileaks drop.

4.) We now Erik Prince illegally met with Russian agents in the UAE to set up back channel communications between Trump and Putin before Trump took office, which violates the Hatch Act.

5.) Trump's insistence on meeting privately with Putin and collecting the translator's notes and refusing to tell Tillerson or any other member of his Admin what was discussed. This is pure insanity, and his base love him because of his transparency!!! Any sane, innocent person would never do this while under investigation for potentially colluding with Russia. The optics of so fucking far off the charts, if you didn't have some nefarious purpose for meeting, you wouldn't!
5.a.) Meeting with Kislyak and the other guy,both known Russian spies, in the White House and allowing Russian media but excluding all US media, and bragging about firing the whack-job Comey for "refusing to drop the Russian thing."

6.) Trump defending Putin to insane levels, and saying he trusts Putin word over all 20-something US intelligence agencies analysis based on actual data.

7.) Trump lifting the sanctions on Oleg Deripaska for no apparent reason other than Deripaska is a Putin henchman and close associate of Manafort.

8.) All of the Trump allies and employees who lied about meeting with Russian agents. Then lied about why they met, ho many times they met...

9.) Trump undoubtedly lied about his ongoing talks with Russian officials about Trump Tower Moscow that went through the election. Fuck, we've seen the signed letter of intent, and Rudy said they met through November 2016.

10.) Trump has enormous loans, potentially $ Billions, from Russian bans which are all government owned. If only we saw his taxes...

11.) Trump has a long history of laundering money for Russian oligarchs and mafioso, who are basically the same as the government powers.

I could go on for hours...

Long story short, it's conceivable that Trump didn't plan on conspiring with Russia to win the election, but he sure as fuck knew his team was working with Russian agents for his personal benefit, be it the election or financial interests, and he willingly changed his platform on Russia and was suddenly very interested in lifting the Magnitsky Act sanctions. I'm not surprised Mueller couldn't definitively conclude Trump directly colluded, but there is no fucking way he is innocent.

And with my prior post still standing, this shit is glorious Syb. Go post that shit on Facebook or as Twitter thread.

[Joe K]

Syb - if your characterization of those underlying issues is accurate, it begs the question as to why Mueller didn’t charge anyone with conspiring with Russia. I understand there are Constitutional and practical issues with charging the President, but why not charge Manafort, Stone, Trump, Jr., etc. with this conspiracy? I understand the distrust of Barr, but whatdo you guys think Mueller’s possible motivations are for not bringing these charges if the evidence is so clear? I think and hope that the full report will be released because I expect that the overall evidentiary picture is a lot more nuanced that how it has been characterized by Russiagaters.

[The Sybian]

300 page report --> 4 page summary

What are we even doing, guys?

This is absolutely not meant as a personal insult, but why are you guys so worried about convincing Joe that there's more to the report than what an obviously biased, hand-picked AG put out 48 hours after a 300 page (!) report got dropped very late on a Friday evening. Not even 48 hours, now that I think about it.

I'm not trying to convince Joe, I genuinely want to understand his thoughts. Joe's posts are highly intelligent, and I agree with almost everything he writes other than his take on Trump and Russia. I need reality checks sometimes, because I worry about getting stuck in a confirmation bias loop. When I read comments on news articles, it's incredibly rare to find an opposing view on Trump's potential collusion that isn't complete partisan bullshit, regurgitated FoxNews tripe, outright lies, or people so far up Trump's ass, they would cheer Trump while he ate their children's still beating hearts. Joe is the only intelligent voice I've heard from who seems to regard my opinion as being conspiracy theoristy. Sometimes I feel like I'm caught up in believing a conspiracy, but fuck, every single thing I mentioned is public knowledge and confirmed!

[Joe K]

If you want a more skeptical view of the public evidence related to these issues I suggest reading some of Aaron Mate’s articles in The Nation. Mate is a leftist journalist whose more skeptical analysis and predictions has proven to be fairly spot on thus far.

https://www.thenation.com/authors/aaron-mate/

[The Sybian]

Syb - if your characterization of those underlying issues is accurate, it begs the question as to why Mueller didn’t charge anyone with conspiring with Russia. I understand there are Constitutional and practical issues with charging the President, but why not charge Manafort, Stone, Trump, Jr., etc. with this conspiracy? I understand the distrust of Barr, but whatdo you guys think Mueller’s possible motivations are for not bringing these charges if the evidence is so clear? I think and hope that the full report will be released because I expect that the overall evidentiary picture is a lot more nuanced that how it has been characterized by Russiagaters.

I have no fucking clue, but I think a conspiracy charge here is almost impossible, because they would need concrete proof of not just the crime, but knowledge and intent. My guess is Mueller didn't want to indict Junior, Kushner or anyone bigger than those already indicted without rock solid 100% proof, because those charges would cause absolute chaos, and if we went 2 years with Junior and Jared on trial, and they were acquitted, it would be an absolute nightmare.

The first thing I learned in submitting cases to US Attorneys offices, is they won't take any case that has even the slightest chance of losing. They maintain something like a 90% win rate, and they guard their records closely. Beyond that, they get so many cases submitted by all the various agencies, they can only take a tiny percentage. I submitted probably close to 1000 cases to US Attorneys, and had maybe 5 accepted.* Not sure if this mindset plays into it at all, but just sharing.

I don't think any of the facts I listed are disputed, but I don't remember everything I wrote, and I'm not rereading it now. You call me a Russiagater,but all of that shit is fact, and the mental gymnastics required to make it not corrupt, if not criminal, is beyond the scope of reality.


*For context, more than half of the cases were seized counterfeit goods, like cheap Chinese handbags with designer logos, where the penalties were upwards of $100 Million against a one man rat hole import shop. We basically filled out a form letter as a formality knowing they were never going anywhere.

[The Sybian]

If you want a more skeptical view of the public evidence related to these issues I suggest reading some of Aaron Mate’s articles in The Nation. Mate is a leftist journalist whose more skeptical analysis and predictions has proven to be fairly spot on thus far.

https://www.thenation.com/authors/aaron-mate/

Thanks, I will check that out. I actually just renewed my subscription to The Nation. I read it religiously for a decade, then stopped getting it for some reason.

[Nonlinear FC]

300 page report --> 4 page summary

What are we even doing, guys?

This is absolutely not meant as a personal insult, but why are you guys so worried about convincing Joe that there's more to the report than what an obviously biased, hand-picked AG put out 48 hours after a 300 page (!) report got dropped very late on a Friday evening. Not even 48 hours, now that I think about it.

I'm not trying to convince Joe, I genuinely want to understand his thoughts. Joe's posts are highly intelligent, and I agree with almost everything he writes other than his take on Trump and Russia. I need reality checks sometimes, because I worry about getting stuck in a confirmation bias loop. When I read comments on news articles, it's incredibly rare to find an opposing view on Trump's potential collusion that isn't complete partisan bullshit, regurgitated FoxNews tripe, outright lies, or people so far up Trump's ass, they would cheer Trump while he ate their children's still beating hearts. Joe is the only intelligent voice I've heard from who seems to regard my opinion as being conspiracy theoristy. Sometimes I feel like I'm caught up in believing a conspiracy, but fuck, every single thing I mentioned is public knowledge and confirmed!

A reasonable and thoughtful position. I can respect that, and I suspect others are annoyed with Joe for this very reason.

Here's where I think people need to parse things out: Whether or not what Trump and his campaign did was LEGAL or ILLEGAL. That's one question. But, as has been said by countless people throughout this mess, the POLITICAL case is about whether what they did was immoral, unpatriotic and actions making him totally unfit for a second term.

Joe - When I parse it out like that, what's your stance? Because the legal stuff, which I'll throw impeachment into that hopper, was just never going to result in a conviction or an impeachment. But, from a "this is disqualifying shit for a candidate/president seeking re-election" standpoint, I can't imagine disagreeing with that.

[Nonlinear FC]

If you want a more skeptical view of the public evidence related to these issues I suggest reading some of Aaron Mate’s articles in The Nation. Mate is a leftist journalist whose more skeptical analysis and predictions has proven to be fairly spot on thus far.

https://www.thenation.com/authors/aaron-mate/

Thanks, I will check that out. I actually just renewed my subscription to The Nation. I read it religiously for a decade, then stopped getting it for some reason.

(How does the author come to such definitive conclusions when the 300 page (!) report isn't public?)

[Giff]

I don’t think Trump engaged in a criminal conspiracy with Russia in connection with the 2016 election. I don’t even think he wanted to win the election, so I find it unlikely that he would attempt such an audacious plot. And had be done so, I think at least one campaign operative would have been charged in connection with that. The Mueller investigation was nothing if not thorough.

As for obstruction of justice, all you need to do is read Trump’s Twitter feed to see that there’s an argument that he committed that offense. But given the DOJ guidance regarding indictments of sitting Presidents, and the fact that no one is going to be charged with an underlying conspiracy, I’m not surprised he won’t be charged with obstruction of justice.

I can't imagine Trump personally sat down with Russian government officials and devised a plot to steal the election, but I don't think there is any doubt people working for Trump acted in the interests of Russia, and I believe Trump new they were doing it. There are just way too many loose ends that are easily explained by a conspiracy with Russia.

1.) Paul Manafort: Here is a guy who hasn't worked in US politics for 20 years, but instead has been working with Putin puppets in the Ukraine. He is deeply in debt to Russian oligarchs, and suddenly decides to work for free as Trump's campaign chair? Then they drastically change the GOP platform out of the blue to a pro-Russia stance, and have a sudden hardon to repeal the Magnitsky Act and lift sanctions on Putin and his oligarch buddies so they can free up Billions of dollars? At best, Trump was shockingly negligent in hiring Manafort, and showed no judgment and no vetting. I knew exactly what Manafort was before Trump hired him, so it isn't possible Trump's people didn't know. Trump's political wrangler was Roger Stone and Stone and Manafort were partners for 20 years, so of course he knew exactly what Manafort was.

2.) The Trump Tower meeting. Vesilnitskaya was just convicted for lying in court that she was not a Russian agent. She was convicted and proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be a Russian government agent. Her sole job as an attorney for two years prior to the Trump Tower meeting was lobbying to repeal the Magnitsky Act. She was in Trump Tower to get the Trump team to agree to repeal Magnitsky. Junior, like the fucking moron he is, fully admitted this by saying they only talked about Russian adoptions, which was Putin's attempt to gain the sympathies of Americans by banning American's from adopting Russian babies as a retaliation to Magnitsky. We have emails where the Russians told Jr they have dirt on Hillary, and instead of calling the FBI, as any law abiding person would, he says "I love it!" and takes the meeting. That alone is a crime. Did Donald know? I'm sure he must have, but it probably can't be proven short of some major smoking gun.

3.) Roger Stone and Wikileaks... Sure seems like Stone knew exactly when Assange was dropping the DNC hacked emails, which were hacked by the GRU (formerly KGB) and warned Podesta it was his turn in the barrel, and Trump brazenly announced we would learn some very bad things about Hillary, which sure seems like a strange thing to say the day before the Wikileaks drop.

4.) We now Erik Prince illegally met with Russian agents in the UAE to set up back channel communications between Trump and Putin before Trump took office, which violates the Hatch Act.

5.) Trump's insistence on meeting privately with Putin and collecting the translator's notes and refusing to tell Tillerson or any other member of his Admin what was discussed. This is pure insanity, and his base love him because of his transparency!!! Any sane, innocent person would never do this while under investigation for potentially colluding with Russia. The optics of so fucking far off the charts, if you didn't have some nefarious purpose for meeting, you wouldn't!
5.a.) Meeting with Kislyak and the other guy,both known Russian spies, in the White House and allowing Russian media but excluding all US media, and bragging about firing the whack-job Comey for "refusing to drop the Russian thing."

6.) Trump defending Putin to insane levels, and saying he trusts Putin word over all 20-something US intelligence agencies analysis based on actual data.

7.) Trump lifting the sanctions on Oleg Deripaska for no apparent reason other than Deripaska is a Putin henchman and close associate of Manafort.

8.) All of the Trump allies and employees who lied about meeting with Russian agents. Then lied about why they met, ho many times they met...

9.) Trump undoubtedly lied about his ongoing talks with Russian officials about Trump Tower Moscow that went through the election. Fuck, we've seen the signed letter of intent, and Rudy said they met through November 2016.

10.) Trump has enormous loans, potentially $ Billions, from Russian bans which are all government owned. If only we saw his taxes...

11.) Trump has a long history of laundering money for Russian oligarchs and mafioso, who are basically the same as the government powers.

I could go on for hours...

Long story short, it's conceivable that Trump didn't plan on conspiring with Russia to win the election, but he sure as fuck knew his team was working with Russian agents for his personal benefit, be it the election or financial interests, and he willingly changed his platform on Russia and was suddenly very interested in lifting the Magnitsky Act sanctions. I'm not surprised Mueller couldn't definitively conclude Trump directly colluded, but there is no fucking way he is innocent.

This post is why headlines like "The implosion of the collusion theory is a humiliation for everyone who promoted it." fucking annoy me.

[Nonlinear FC]

A reminder: What were the prevailing stories coming out in the days after the mid-term elections? Not a blue wave, dissappointing results, why can't the Dems get out of their own way? 4 more years of Trump?!

All bullshit, as we all know. The biggest turn-around in the House since the post Watergate midterms. Massive swings in state positions all over the country.

This is a different situation, but the main underlying thread is that the media jumps on whatever is in front of its face (the Barr letter in this case, the early results on election night for the mid-terms in the former) and just has a fucking gross orgy of declarative and definitive articles and TV panels, facts and already publicly available evidence fuck-off-to Hades with that shit. That's too hard. That takes context and doing the actual work of, you know, keeping the public fully informed.

[Joe K]

If you want a more skeptical view of the public evidence related to these issues I suggest reading some of Aaron Mate’s articles in The Nation. Mate is a leftist journalist whose more skeptical analysis and predictions has proven to be fairly spot on thus far.

https://www.thenation.com/authors/aaron-mate/

Thanks, I will check that out. I actually just renewed my subscription to The Nation. I read it religiously for a decade, then stopped getting it for some reason.

(How does the author come to such definitive conclusions when the 300 page (!) report isn't public?)

Mate’s analysis has largely been based on a careful review of court pleadings and other publicly available information from the court cases against Manafort, Cohen, Flynn, et al. For example, I think his analysis of the Manafort issues has been particularly sharp. He had pointed out that although Manafort’s Ukrainian clients were allied with Putin, documentary evidence introduced at his trial showed that Manafort was trying to persuade them to take a more EU/US-friendly stance. Which undermines the argument that Manafort was working to serve Russian interests.

[The Sybian]

This post is why headlines like "The implosion of the collusion theory is a humiliation for everyone who promoted it." fucking annoy me.

While those headlines are maddening, dangerous and wrong, the House Intel shit is downright Orwellian. All 9 GOP members of the Intel Committee wrote letters calling for Schiff to resign, because the Mueller Report contradicts all of Schiff's claims and shows his focus on investigating Trump is based on false grounds. Keep in mind, none of them had access to the Report, so they can't know what it says.


And this asshole is comparing Schiff to Joe McCarthy on the Committee floor!

[Nonlinear FC]

If you want a more skeptical view of the public evidence related to these issues I suggest reading some of Aaron Mate’s articles in The Nation. Mate is a leftist journalist whose more skeptical analysis and predictions has proven to be fairly spot on thus far.

https://www.thenation.com/authors/aaron-mate/

Thanks, I will check that out. I actually just renewed my subscription to The Nation. I read it religiously for a decade, then stopped getting it for some reason.

(How does the author come to such definitive conclusions when the 300 page (!) report isn't public?)

Mate’s analysis has largely been based on a careful review of court pleadings and other publicly available information from the court cases against Manafort, Cohen, Flynn, et al. For example, I think his analysis of the Manafort issues has been particularly sharp. He had pointed out that although Manafort’s Ukrainian clients were allied with Putin, documentary evidence introduced at his trial showed that Manafort was trying to persuade them to take a more EU/US-friendly stance. Which undermines the argument that Manafort was working to serve Russian interests.

Doesn't make my point invalid. Report isn't out. Just like I NEVER moved anywhere towards "He's definitely guilty" without seeing the report, I find it incredible that anyone with any kind of credibility is making definitive statements without seeing the 300 page (!) report.

I respect your opinion, but that's all it is at this point.

[Nonlinear FC]

Joe - When I parse it out like that, what's your stance? Because the legal stuff, which I'll throw impeachment into that hopper, was just never going to result in a conviction or an impeachment. But, from a "this is disqualifying shit for a candidate/president seeking re-election" standpoint, I can't imagine disagreeing with that.

In case you missed this.

[Nonlinear FC]

Meanwhile...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... nal&wpmk=1

When Donald Trump wanted to make a good impression — on a lender, a business partner, or a journalist — he sometimes sent them official-looking documents called “Statements of Financial Condition.”

These documents sometimes ran up to 20 pages. They were full of numbers, laying out Trump’s properties, debts and multibillion-dollar net worth.

But, for someone trying to get a true picture of Trump’s net worth, the documents were deeply flawed. Some simply omitted properties that carried big debts. Some assets were overvalued. And some key numbers were wrong.

Now, investigators on Capitol Hill and in New York are homing in on these unusual documents in an apparent attempt to determine whether Trump’s familiar habit of bragging about his wealth ever crossed a line into fraud.

The statements are at the center of at least two of the inquiries that continue to follow Trump, unaffected by the end of special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s investigation. On Wednesday, the House Committee on Oversight and Reform said it had requested 10 years of these statements from Trump’s accounting firm, Mazars USA.

And earlier this month, the New York state Department of Financial Services subpoenaed records from Trump’s longtime insurer, Aon. A person familiar with that subpoena, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe an ongoing investigation, said “a key component” was questions about whether Trump had given Aon these documents in an effort to lower his insurance premiums.

Both inquiries stemmed from testimony last month by Trump’s former lawyer Michael Cohen, who told Congress that Trump had used these statements to inflate his wealth — and then sent them to his lenders and his insurers.

As many of us have said, what' likely to really tag Trump and Fam is the shady ass shit he's done over the years in the financial realm. The fact that this country does a FUCKAWFUL job of going after white collar crimes is actually going to bite these slimy shitbirds in the collective ass now that ppl are gunning for him.

If you guys recall, it was THIS stuff that I said was going to fuck him up when he started going after the FBI and DOJ. He picked the wrong ppl to fuck with.

[Joe K]

Joe - When I parse it out like that, what's your stance? Because the legal stuff, which I'll throw impeachment into that hopper, was just never going to result in a conviction or an impeachment. But, from a "this is disqualifying shit for a candidate/president seeking re-election" standpoint, I can't imagine disagreeing with that.

In case you missed this.

There are countless reasons why I think it would be really bad if Trump is re-elected. Most notably his embrace of racism and xenophobia and his utter unwillingness to do anything to help the poor. But if we’re strictly talking foreign policy, his actions vis-a-vis Russia don’t bother me as much as his appalling policies w/r/t Venezuela, Saudi Arabia or Israel.

[degenerasian]

Joe - When I parse it out like that, what's your stance? Because the legal stuff, which I'll throw impeachment into that hopper, was just never going to result in a conviction or an impeachment. But, from a "this is disqualifying shit for a candidate/president seeking re-election" standpoint, I can't imagine disagreeing with that.

In case you missed this.

There are countless reasons why I think it would be really bad if Trump is re-elected. Most notably his embrace of racism and xenophobia and his utter unwillingness to do anything to help the poor. But if we’re strictly talking foreign policy, his actions vis-a-vis Russia don’t bother me as much as his appalling policies w/r/t Venezuela, Saudi Arabia or Israel.

What about North Korea?

[Joe K]

Joe - When I parse it out like that, what's your stance? Because the legal stuff, which I'll throw impeachment into that hopper, was just never going to result in a conviction or an impeachment. But, from a "this is disqualifying shit for a candidate/president seeking re-election" standpoint, I can't imagine disagreeing with that.

In case you missed this.

There are countless reasons why I think it would be really bad if Trump is re-elected. Most notably his embrace of racism and xenophobia and his utter unwillingness to do anything to help the poor. But if we’re strictly talking foreign policy, his actions vis-a-vis Russia don’t bother me as much as his appalling policies w/r/t Venezuela, Saudi Arabia or Israel.

What about North Korea?

I don’t actually have an issue with Trump’s desire to deescalate tensions with North Korea. He just has no clue how to pull it off.

[Nonlinear FC]

Joe - When I parse it out like that, what's your stance? Because the legal stuff, which I'll throw impeachment into that hopper, was just never going to result in a conviction or an impeachment. But, from a "this is disqualifying shit for a candidate/president seeking re-election" standpoint, I can't imagine disagreeing with that.

In case you missed this.

There are countless reasons why I think it would be really bad if Trump is re-elected. Most notably his embrace of racism and xenophobia and his utter unwillingness to do anything to help the poor. But if we’re strictly talking foreign policy, his actions vis-a-vis Russia don’t bother me as much as his appalling policies w/r/t Venezuela, Saudi Arabia or Israel.

Ok. I just find it hard to see the mountain of bullshit he pulled, and how many times he actively used his position to obstruct the investigation as something to shrug off. Any other president that pulled this shit, with the surrounding cast of misfits and miscreants, would've been out on his ass a year ago.

This is what normalization looks like, in my opinion.

[Nonlinear FC]

And, yeah totally independent special prosecutor my fucking ass.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... nal&wpmk=1

Total bullshit. Whereas Starr operated under now-expired statute giving a special prosecutor independence and broad leeway, Meuller was treated like any other subordinate, with his appointed boss Rosenstein under incredible political pressure to bury as much of this as possible.

People have the very mistaken impression Meuller = Starr. Simply not true, and very important part of this story.

[Johnnie]

Lindsey Graham, Mitch McConnell twice, and now Rand Paul have all successfully thwarted attempts by Democrats to release the report in full.

Don't forget that Rand Paul flew to Russia to personally hand deliver a letter from Trump to Putin.

But yeah. No collusion.

For a report that "exonerates" the president you'd think they'd just release a 300 page document that proves it.

Edit:

[Nonlinear FC]

As we round out this bullshit week, I want to put a finer point on something that I get into with Pruitt on facebook.

Barr's 4 page letter is absolutely irrelevant to anything. The DoJ has a policy that you they can't indict/prosecute a president (or VP, this goes back to Agnew, which I could go off on and might later), so the entire point was to put together this report and turn it over to Congress, who has oversight of the Executive and in this case of the President (duh.)

Sure, the report theoretically could have had additional indictments for Junior, Jared, etc., but it didn't so here we are.

The entire point of Barr was to muddy the waters and put his thumb on the scale for Trump before this report is sent to Congress and is eventually full or partially shared with the public.

The fact that the media (and the public) doesn't seem to grasp this is fucking infuriating. The fact that the media is self-flagellating over this is equally maddening. As I've said all week, even if this doesn't rise to criminal activity (which I find HIGHLY FUCKING UNLIKELY on the obstruction front), it is as Adam Schiff said, unethical, unpatriotic and corrupt. To continue with Schiff's steez, No one should be ok with any of this.

[Nonlinear FC]

BTW, I just threw Adam Schiff $5... Felt good.

https://secure.actblue.com/donate/as-ac ... KBcQIFmlOI

[Joe K]

[Johnnie]

Full*

[mister d]

Takes < 48 hours to read and summarize but a month to redact. Mmmhmm.

[Nonlinear FC]

Takes < 48 hours to read and summarize but a month to redact. Mmmhmm.

He's out today saying it's a mis-characterization to say his bullshit op-ed/memo is a summary.

Until he proves otherwise, fuck this guy.

[Pruitt]

[Joe K]

Takes < 48 hours to read and summarize but a month to redact. Mmmhmm.

He's out today saying it's a mis-characterization to say his bullshit op-ed/memo is a summary.

Until he proves otherwise, fuck this guy.

Isn’t the most likely answer here simply that Mueller kept Rosenstein in the loop and that as a result, Rosenstein and Barr knew what the top-level findings would be before Mueller completed the report? Had Barr not provided any information upon receiving the report and instead waited for the completion of the redactions, the same people upset about his issuance of the 4-page letter would be mad about the delay in announcing the key findings.

I really think that the prevailing assumption that the Mueller investigation would be devastating for Trump’s Presidency is now leading people to assume that there’s something nefarious going on now. Again, if you think Barr is pulling a fast one here you also necessarily think that Mueller and ~20 other accomplished prosecutors are letting him do that.

[mister d]

You can check the history, I had no expectations riding on this report.

[Joe K]

You can check the history, I had no expectations riding on this report.

I’m talking more generally than about you or any other particular person. I just keep seeing people suggesting that Barr is acting in bad faith when if he did that it would be so, so easy for any member of Mueller’s team to make that backfire.

[mister d]

How? The report explicitly doesn't make determinations, it simply lays out evidence. To expect a Mueller subordinate to jump onto the national stage and contradict Barr would go against the spirit of the report, no?

[Nonlinear FC]

Takes < 48 hours to read and summarize but a month to redact. Mmmhmm.

He's out today saying it's a mis-characterization to say his bullshit op-ed/memo is a summary.

Until he proves otherwise, fuck this guy.

Isn’t the most likely answer here simply that Mueller kept Rosenstein in the loop and that as a result, Rosenstein and Barr knew what the top-level findings would be before Mueller completed the report? Had Barr not provided any information upon receiving the report and instead waited for the completion of the redactions, the same people upset about his issuance of the 4-page letter would be mad about the delay in announcing the key findings.

I really think that the prevailing assumption that the Mueller investigation would be devastating for Trump’s Presidency is now leading people to assume that there’s something nefarious going on now. Again, if you think Barr is pulling a fast one here you also necessarily think that Mueller and ~20 other accomplished prosecutors are letting him do that.

Please stop lumping me in with "people that thought (the report) would be devastating to Trump." I have NEVER said that.

However you want to characterize his "summary," the real-world result is that he put his thumb on the scale for Trump. You can't conceive of another type of message he could've put out? REALLY? You're either being cagey or you lack imagination (or something, I dunno.)

Here, how about this:

"As everyone is aware, I am in receipt of the special prosecutor's full report. It is over 400 pages in length and includes classified information that must be reviewed and redacted before it is sent to the appropriate congressional oversight committees (or whatever the procedure/protocol is). In the interest of remaining impartial and objective, I will have no further comment at this time."

As I said earlier, he is not obligated or required to say ANYTHING. He is not interested in explaining his proper role, because it allows him to keep the spotlight where he wants it. It is literally not his purview at this point. All he is doing is flapping his lips in service of the president. You continue to have a binary view of this situation, for whatever reason.

[Nonlinear FC]

You can check the history, I had no expectations riding on this report.

I’m talking more generally than about you or any other particular person. I just keep seeing people suggesting that Barr is acting in bad faith when if he did that it would be so, so easy for any member of Mueller’s team to make that backfire.

For a guy that has spent the better part of two years chiding people for jumping to conclusions and making assumptions, this here is a prime example of talking out yer butt.

Who the fuck knows what Mueller or is team have been instructed to say/not say. Or if they are laying low, waiting for the report to hit Congress and not getting involved in politics and turning things nasty with a bunch of leaks and shit. Who knows, man. Using their silence as validation of your OPINION is weak sauce.

[mister d]

Kind of separate, Joe, but you atleast seem to be working from a point where one should assume good faith until they can prove bad faith versus throwing a bad faith blanket on the entire admin.

[Nonlinear FC]

Kind of separate, Joe, but you atleast seem to be working from a point where one should assume good faith until they can prove bad faith versus throwing a bad faith blanket on the entire admin.

That's a pretty good point.

I absolutely don't trust ANY of these fuckers at this point.

Let's also remember, again, this shithead wrote a 19 page memo months ago about how it's morally indefensible (or something like that) to even be talking about indicting a sitting president and that the entire investigation was a grave threat to the republic.

So, yeah, again, fuck this guy. I have no idea how you can make the case he's a completely objective guy. TRUMP HANDPICKED HIM.

You know, you can just take the W on there being no criminal charges on collusion. Bully for you. But you're just being weirdly inconsistent with your other political posts when it comes to this investigation. Not going to keep harping on it, because at the end of all this, your opinion (and mine) mean fuckall.

[Joe K]

How? The report explicitly doesn't make determinations, it simply lays out evidence. To expect a Mueller subordinate to jump onto the national stage and contradict Barr would go against the spirit of the report, no?

For one thing, Barr’s letter directly quotes the Mueller Report as saying that it did not find that any Americans conspired with Russia. If that were a misleadingly truncated quote, or otherwise against the spirit of the report, anyone from the team could speak up and put a halt to Trump’s “no collusion” victory lap. I think it’s very unlikely they’d let that just sit there for weeks on end if it were inaccurate even if they were given some instruction to stay quiet. Given his stature and widespread respect, Mueller holds the cards here — what exactly could Barr do to him if he did speak up?

While admittedly I’m making assumptions here, so is everyone that is accusing Barr of bad faith. I don’t think it’s at all unusual or improper to release the 4-page letter summarizing the key findings of the report. I see it as roughly equivalent to issuing an Executive Summary of a lengthy report.