The Swamp

- Help Degen With A School Project About Working Remotely

I'm enrolled in a Communications Class as part of my continuing education.
One project I have to complete is a technical report.

Topic: how remote work has been viewed during the last 10
years, predictions of future behavior
- Differences between remote work / working from home
- Challenges with working remotely vs. the challenges of work that
working remotely solves

I know some of you work from home. Any advantages/disadvantages?

I have some notes so far:
- Being on call is stressful
- Company finding that it costs a lot to purchase office space
downtown. Remote workers could be a cost-saving measure
- Young families that want to be able to work from home a few days a
week
- Mental health aspect – does it generate short/long-term stress?

Have worked remote for over a decade, so can provide some input.

Are you asking about the advantages/disadvantages from the perspective of the worker, or the company?

I worked from home for six years before I left the company. (The office moved from California to Michigan, and after initially saying I had to move, they relented and said I could work remotely).

PROS (from my perspective):
No commute. Less car travel. More casual.
Don't have to work around assholes in the office.
PROS (from company perspective):
Kept a great employee who might have left company otherwise.
CONS (from my perspective):
Had to discipline myself to a work schedule.
Lots of easy distractions.
Lack of camaraderie of working in the office with friends.
More difficult to speak to boss/co-workers.
More air travel.
Feels like you never leave "the office".
I was three hours behind them on the clock, if I didn't get up really early (I often did.)
CONS (from company perspective):
More difficult for boss/co-workers to speak to me.
I was three hours behind them on the clock, if I didn't get up really early.
Missed out on things at the office, or caught up later - not optimal.
I always got my work done, but the old-timers always assume remote workers just fuck off all the time.
More air travel.

One positive for my agency, which can be important especially if you live in certain parts of the country/continent, is that our telecommuting procedures have left us much better equipped to deal with bad weather. You could mention the growing need for resiliency due to climate change. Buzzwordz.

Company side:

1. Its much easier for a new company to start like this versus an existing company to switch because not everyone can do it and they have to be willing to cut bait on previously good employees.

2. People are dumb enough in the office networks, I can't imagine how difficult and costly remote security is.


Employee side:

1. The biggest downside, besides socializing, is that you become perpetually at work because your house is your office. Where you may bail from the office at a reasonable time and pick it up tomorrow, at home you either keep going or sit back down later.

2. Its still well worth the tradeoff because, with kids and especially with no family nearby, its borderline impossible to have two working parents on set office hours. There's public school days off, irregular summer camp schedules, sick days, varying school start/end times (some here are as late as 9:00), after school activities, etc, etc ... and that's before you get to the simple "I want to see my kids during the week too". The last two weeks, one of us hasn't been home before 8:00 more often than not and we're probably closer to the rule than the exception.

Johnny Carwash wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:27 am Have worked remote for over a decade, so can provide some input.

Are you asking about the advantages/disadvantages from the perspective of the worker, or the company?

I'm not sure yet, i'm still working it out. I think both but that might be too much.

Probably more from the perspective of the worker.

For example, I don't work remotely but have to sometimes remote in outside work hours to do extra or catch up. That's different.

My wife has been telecommuting for 15 years or so. I think you guys have covered the main points pretty well.

I'd just add to the whole lack of socializing thing with a wrinkle. It can create a culture where people don't treat each other very well. If most of your interactions are on email or (mostly boring) conference calls, people start dehumanizing their colleagues. May seem kind of touchy/feely, but I can say that it's a very real problem for places that have a large telecommuting cohort and/or are spread out around the country and don't see each other very often (if at all.)

I've been remote/telecommuting for about 11 years now.

Some others have echoed these, but I'll put in my two cents.

PROS:
--Flexibility of work hours
--Lack of commute
--Availability in case of emergency/inclement weather
--Saves employers money in most cases (my employer doesn't have to pay for a parking spot in downtown STL, etc.)
--Personal comfort (it is pretty much inarguably more comfortable to work out of a spare bedroom than in a cube in an office building
--Relocation to another city doesn't mean employer will lose employee (i.e. if your spouse gets a job in another city, etc.)

CONS:
--Little separation of work/home life (this is related/a counterpoint to availability "pro")*
--Separation from co-workers makes it harder to develop personal relationships with them (sense of community)
--Requires self-motivation (though I think too much is made of this for the most part -- if you're not self-motivated, you're gonna have trouble in any situation)
--Getting resources is harder (physical resources as mundane as office supplies or as complex as computer equipment)

I'm probably forgetting some, but I'll add any others if I think of them.

* I wish I had a dollar for every time I was in the middle of some major issue at work or stressed about some crisis and my wife comes in to my office to complain about the lawn or some idiotic bullshit. You don't have to deal with that if you're not remote (unless you work with your wife)

I'm a freelancer, so not sure that it fits in the category.

But let me know if you want to discuss...

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:01 pmI'd just add to the whole lack of socializing thing with a wrinkle. It can create a culture where people don't treat each other very well. If most of your interactions are on email or (mostly boring) conference calls, people start dehumanizing their colleagues. May seem kind of touchy/feely, but I can say that it's a very real problem for places that have a large telecommuting cohort and/or are spread out around the country and don't see each other very often (if at all.)

This is a good one. It didn't affect me all that much since I was mostly an island w/ only a direct supervisor, but I know a lot of people who real or perceived feel disconnected and/or outside of a clique. If its a manager with a four person team and the manager favors or is just friendlier with one or two, it can get weird.

Thanks for all the input. Lets take it from the other side, the company point of view.

There was a snowstorm here on Oct 2, record snowfall for the entire month of October in one day. I called in saying no way I could come in so I can work from home. But not everyone has this opportunity. Why?

So from a company point of view, with this technology today why are people on days like that, stranded hours in traffic to get to work? and more hours getting home. People ran out of gas and walked home.

Is it just hierarchical? 20th century office modals in the 21st century?
Is it trust? People do shit at home? Is it measurables? We don't have the tools to measure hours worked from home?
Could you manage an entirely remote department?

degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:21 pm Thanks for all the input. Lets take it from the other side, the company point of view.

There was a snowstorm here on Oct 2, record snowfall for the entire month of October in one day. I called in saying no way I could come in so I can work from home. But not everyone has this opportunity. Why?

So from a company point of view, with this technology today why are people on days like that, stranded hours in traffic to get to work? and more hours getting home. People ran out of gas and walked home.

Is it just hierarchical? 20th century office modals in the 21st century?
Is it trust? People do shit at home? Is it measurables? We don't have the tools to measure hours worked from home?
Could you manage an entirely remote department?

If the boss and the employee agree on clear expectations on what has to get done remotely (what, how, and when), it can work great. Trust is created when the employee proves that performance does not suffer. Old-school hierarchical managers have a hard time trusting their subordinates and thus often don't support remote work situations. Lazy managers don't hold workers accountable and get taken advantage of, ruining the remote working relationship. It can't be about hours worked, it has to be about accomplishment of goals.

sancarlos wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:30 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:21 pm Thanks for all the input. Lets take it from the other side, the company point of view.

There was a snowstorm here on Oct 2, record snowfall for the entire month of October in one day. I called in saying no way I could come in so I can work from home. But not everyone has this opportunity. Why?

So from a company point of view, with this technology today why are people on days like that, stranded hours in traffic to get to work? and more hours getting home. People ran out of gas and walked home.

Is it just hierarchical? 20th century office modals in the 21st century?
Is it trust? People do shit at home? Is it measurables? We don't have the tools to measure hours worked from home?
Could you manage an entirely remote department?

If the boss and the employee agree on clear expectations on what has to get done remotely (what, how, and when), it can work great. Trust is created when the employee proves that performance does not suffer. Old-school hierarchical managers have a hard time trusting their subordinates and thus often don't support remote work situations. Lazy managers don't hold workers accountable and get taken advantage of, ruining the remote working relationship. It can't be about hours worked, it has to be about accomplishment of goals.

With that said, there ARE software tools that can track when employees are working. That kind of chips away at the trust issue, and can be gamed (sorta), but I know my wife's company uses a messenger/slack platform that also shows if people are "online" and notes how long someone has been inactive/away from their laptop.

I think managers not allowing WFH even in emergencies is almost perfectly analogous with sports managers/coaches picking the safer option over something probably better but outside the box because the safer option usually leads to less criticism.

4th down decisions to punt between your 35 and your opponents 40.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:21 pm Thanks for all the input. Lets take it from the other side, the company point of view.

There was a snowstorm here on Oct 2, record snowfall for the entire month of October in one day. I called in saying no way I could come in so I can work from home. But not everyone has this opportunity. Why?

So from a company point of view, with this technology today why are people on days like that, stranded hours in traffic to get to work? and more hours getting home. People ran out of gas and walked home.

Is it just hierarchical? 20th century office modals in the 21st century?
Is it trust? People do shit at home? Is it measurables? We don't have the tools to measure hours worked from home?
Could you manage an entirely remote department?

I think it's two things: trust and perceived ability to collaborate.

Trust - managers/supervisors/executives think employees will not get as much done at home as they would in the office. I believe studies show the opposite is true...we get more done at home than we do in the office. I think the why is either old-school thinking (people cannot be given choice and everything must be structured) or a manager had an experience where one person slacked off at home and therefore everybody gets painted with that brush.

Collaboration - similar to the (false) belief that open-office concepts promote collaboration. If people truly need to collaborate technology has made it easier to do so now more than ever. I admit I prefer face-to-face meetings but reality is there is no excuse I cannot accomplish the same thing via phone or Skype, etc. I just prefer face-to-face because that is part of who I am and what I am used to. My guess is this is true for a lot of people over 40.

What about old executives being scared of technology because it exposes them?

GoodKarma wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:08 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:21 pm Thanks for all the input. Lets take it from the other side, the company point of view.

There was a snowstorm here on Oct 2, record snowfall for the entire month of October in one day. I called in saying no way I could come in so I can work from home. But not everyone has this opportunity. Why?

So from a company point of view, with this technology today why are people on days like that, stranded hours in traffic to get to work? and more hours getting home. People ran out of gas and walked home.

Is it just hierarchical? 20th century office modals in the 21st century?
Is it trust? People do shit at home? Is it measurables? We don't have the tools to measure hours worked from home?
Could you manage an entirely remote department?

I think it's two things: trust and perceived ability to collaborate.

Trust - managers/supervisors/executives think employees will not get as much done at home as they would in the office. I believe studies show the opposite is true...we get more done at home than we do in the office. I think the why is either old-school thinking (people cannot be given choice and everything must be structured) or a manager had an experience where one person slacked off at home and therefore everybody gets painted with that brush.

Collaboration - similar to the (false) belief that open-office concepts promote collaboration. If people truly need to collaborate technology has made it easier to do so now more than ever. I admit I prefer face-to-face meetings but reality is there is no excuse I cannot accomplish the same thing via phone or Skype, etc. I just prefer face-to-face because that is part of who I am and what I am used to. My guess is this is true for a lot of people over 40.

This is a pretty good point. The one thing I would be honest about (and have been with my supervisors) is that it is easier for me to be engaged in meetings in person as opposed to over the phone (because of distractions, some of which are actually trying to get "real" work done), but that's a personal thing and ultimately it doesn't adversely affect my job performance. But in a perfect magic land I would be able to attend meetings in person and do the rest of my work remotely.

Fortunately, we're not a company that has meetings for the sake of having meetings, which can't be said for some jobs I've had.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:19 pm What about old executives being scared of technology because it exposes them?

They don't get technology, but they have people skills!

I've been working from home since 2000, so I have some thoughts I can share. I'm probably repeating what others have said, and if I do, view it as confirmation of the previous post. I also was the first person in my company to work from home full time and essentially was a guinea pig to see if it would work. I'd say it was a success, because I'm still working there 18 years later and others now work from home full time, too.

PROS:

- Increased productivity. I get more done working from home because I'm not getting distracted by chatty co-workers. On the rare instances where I go to my company's headquarters, I constantly have people coming up to just talk. A lot of that is because I don't go to HQ very often (my last visit was two years ago), but I don't have that issue in my basement office. The only chatty distraction I have is my cat.

- Flexible work hours. I usually work from 8:30 to 5, but I'm not required to report at a particular time. Both my current boss and previous boss (who is now the CFO) told me they don't care how many hours I work or when I work as long as I get my work done. I always have my phone with me, so I'm always available even if I'm not at my desk.

- No commute. I can't even fathom how much money I've saved over the years by not buying gas, putting additional wear and tear on my car, not going out for lunch very often, etc. Hell, I've probably saved hundreds of dollars by not needing to buy as much professional attire.

- Lower costs for my employer. My company pays for my home Internet and office phone and gives a monthly stipend to offset cell phone costs. That amounts to about $150 a month. I rarely need office supplies or computing equipment. The only "extra" expense I've ever requested was for a stand up desk, which cost the company a little more than $900. I seriously doubt my expenses come close to what the company pays for office equipment, phone access, wireless access, security, etc.

- Better self discipline. At first, it took a while to adjusting to working from home. It was easy to get distracted. But you must have the self discipline to do your job. I thought I had that discipline at first, but I learned rather quickly it had to improve. It will become very obvious to your employer if you don't have the discipline to work from home, and eventually you'll pay the price.


CONS:

- Missed job opportunities. I once asked my previous boss if working from home was holding me back. He said some projects and such went to others because I wasn't at the central office. It's kind of an "out of sight, out of mind" situation. I pretty much know I won't get promoted to a higher position because I'm not there. I'm fine with that, but if you're ambitious, working remotely could hold you back.

- Communication issues. This is less of a problem these days, but early on, I wasn't informed about changing roles in my department. That lead to some awkward phone calls with colleagues at times. Again, this is an "out of sign, out of mind" situation. I've also had problems with our Help Desk over the years because they would do something incorrectly because they either didn't ask for my advice or were aware of changes. Had I been in the office, those problems probably don't occur.


If I think of anything else, I'll add it later.

Sabo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:08 am I've been working from home since 2000, so I have some thoughts I can share. I'm probably repeating what others have said, and if I do, view it as confirmation of the previous post. I also was the first person in my company to work from home full time and essentially was a guinea pig to see if it would work. I'd say it was a success, because I'm still working there 18 years later and others now work from home full time, too.

PROS:

- Increased productivity. I get more done working from home because I'm not getting distracted by chatty co-workers. On the rare instances where I go to my company's headquarters, I constantly have people coming up to just talk. A lot of that is because I don't go to HQ very often (my last visit was two years ago), but I don't have that issue in my basement office. The only chatty distraction I have is my cat.

I'm so offended.

Sabo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:08 amI also was the first person in my company to work from home full time and essentially was a guinea pig to see if it would work. I'd say it was a success, because I'm still working there 18 years later and others now work from home full time, too.

Same except just shy of 10 years ago and now I'm back in the office about 2/3 of the time.

Sabo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:08 am- Better self discipline. At first, it took a while to adjusting to working from home. It was easy to get distracted. But you must have the self discipline to do your job. I thought I had that discipline at first, but I learned rather quickly it had to improve. It will become very obvious to your employer if you don't have the discipline to work from home, and eventually you'll pay the price.

Yup. I have music on at all times but only television if its like a big game/match. Maybe once every two months or something, minus early baseball playoffs, the World Cup or NCAA Tourney.

Sabo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:08 am- Missed job opportunities. I once asked my previous boss if working from home was holding me back. He said some projects and such went to others because I wasn't at the central office. It's kind of an "out of sight, out of mind" situation. I pretty much know I won't get promoted to a higher position because I'm not there. I'm fine with that, but if you're ambitious, working remotely could hold you back.

Yuuuuuuup. I know what I do is appreciated and valued and blah blah blah, but I also know I got locked into a certain role a while back. Even as the responsibilities of that role have changed, its still the same larger "he'll get this done" versus the standard work-assess-map-out-a-path-repeat dept structure.

Anxiously waiting to see if this thread will apply to me soon.

Thanks everyone for you input. My partner and I finished our paper last night.
We took the contrarian point of view saying that remote work benefits companies much more than employees.

If you're interested in reading the paper (it's just over 3000 words) I can email it to you

Executive Summary
A practical evaluation of the best practices, advantages, and disadvantages of working remotely, focused both at the scale of the organization and that of the individual employee. From the origins of ‘telecommuting’ as a response to the 1970’s energy crisis, to the modern business strategy of distributed offices, this paper discusses how the evolution of communication technology has drastically transformed the modern office environment. This evaluation of remote work includes discussions of hardware, management styles, individual and group psychology, and societal trends. Though most available literature is prepared from the viewpoint of the organization and promotes remote work, this review concludes that there are gaps in institutional research discussing the long-term impacts to the individual employee. Interviews with several employees who have worked remotely for their organizations present the opinion that this type of work comes at a misunderstood personal cost while the organization benefits.

Conclusion
That available research regarding the efficacy of remote work has several clear conclusions. The organization must be equipped with the technological infrastructure for virtual communication and understand the types of team dynamics and processes required to work remotely. It is better if the entire organization is distributed – managers and production staff working from the same environment reduces the friction of perceiving others as not on task. Ideally, the organization begins as working remotely, rather than transitioning from an office environment, and hires people who have experience working remotely. However, interviews indicate that the use of remote work (when not all employees work remotely) is worse for the employee than for the organization. The literature almost exclusively takes the position that working remotely is beneficial. Contrary to this literature, we feel that the individual employee has been neglected within long term studies that evaluate the personal disadvantages of working remotely. Future generations of workers may be entirely remote and never experience a collaborative office environment. Those workers may ask for their own best practices for successfully reintegrating into a shared workplace.

Degen, I'm interested in reading your paper. I'll PM you my email address.

Thanks!

Can you summarize here when you're done?

But not executively.

I'm late to help Degen, but the one thing I didn't see anyone say, which is a pro and a con, is the flexible work time. I take off in the middle of the day to get kids to practices and appointments, I go to the gym at 8:30 after dropping the kids at school so I often start my day at 10-10:30, but I also end up working most nights after dinner or putting the kids to bed. I have no boundaries between work and personal time. I answer emails at midnight without realizing what time it is. It's magnified in my job, because a majority of my clients are West Coast, and employees making complaints often want to speak after they get off work, so I schedule calls at 10 or 11 pm. I prefer it, because I don't need to tell anyone when I go to my kids' school events at noon, and I can work when they have stupid days off or snow days, and just have longer, less productive hours. OTOH, I never feel like I'm off duty. I watch Netflix on my personal desktop in my office, and my work laptop is next to me. When an email comes in, I'll start working mid-movie. It doesn't bother me, but I feel like it's probably not healthy to not have boundaries.

I'm less productive in the office, because a big part of my job is acting as a consultant to certain colleagues. When I am in the office, they constantly seek advice, or tell me every issue that comes up with the clients. When I'm home, they will IM or call on occasion, but not nearly as often. The distractions are beneficial to my company and colleagues, but keep me from my specifically assigned work. So I get my assigned work done quicker at home, but I'm adding less value to my company.

How does Mrs syb feel about that? Serious q. My wife and I work traditional hours in offices and I feel guilty answering emails at night sometimes but I still do when it’s the right person or project.

A_B wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:42 pm How does Mrs syb feel about that? Serious q. My wife and I work traditional hours in offices and I feel guilty answering emails at night sometimes but I still do when it’s the right person or project.

A big reason it's necessary is because my wife's job is so crazy. She's gone by 7 most mornings, because most of the administrators are doctors who see patients, so meetings are at 7:30, and she has late night meetings, functions, galas, fundraisers, etc... several nights a week, so I need to be the one responsible for all the kids stuff and doing most of the work around the house, so it's the only way to keep up with everything. When she gets home, she is usually working until midnight. She is in charge of communications and PR for a medical group that includes 6 hospitals, so she is handling crises all the time at all hours and on the weekends, not to mention monitoring social media to react to insane people posting batshit crazy stuff about her company, or making sure her team posts stuff about the weekend community outreach events they hold. I feel bad for whoever is on call for monitoring social media, because she always catches shit first, and if something sat for more than an hour, there is hell to pay.

Back in my lawyering days, I was staying late at the office all the time and bringing work home on the weekends, that probably primed me for working all hours. When I worked at a private practice law firm, that was a problem for her. She was pregnant and then working from home with an infant, and I would get stopped on my way out all the time by a frantic partner with a motion or something due the next day. Telling her I'm on the way, then getting stuck for another 3 or 4 hours was always a problem, as she was stuck alone with a crying baby.

Yeah that’s some high level shit outta both you all. Respect the hustle.

Florida Man Clearly On All the Drugs

A_B wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:53 pm Yeah that’s some high level shit outta both you all. Respect the hustle.

Meh, save all the respect for her.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:27 pm

A_B wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:53 pm Yeah that’s some high level shit outta both you all. Respect the hustle.

Meh, save all the respect for her.

Oh your net respect level is still negative, don’t worry.