Bill Buckner

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Pruitt
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Bill Buckner

Post by Pruitt » Mon May 27, 2019 4:20 pm

69 Years Old

Such a shame that he is only remembered for the one thing.

20 solid years in the majors.
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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by mister d » Mon May 27, 2019 4:49 pm

They should put Dave Stapleton in the casket instead.
Rush2112 wrote:
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Dude got a handjob like thousands of old dudes do every day. Big whoop.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by sancarlos » Mon May 27, 2019 6:31 pm

Pruitt wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 4:20 pm
69 Years Old

Such a shame that he is only remembered for the one thing.

20 solid years in the majors.
Well said
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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by Nonlinear FC » Tue May 28, 2019 8:58 am

ESPN's chiron pissed me off. Guy had an amazing career.
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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by mister d » Tue May 28, 2019 10:12 am

I know its not the T or the P (and I'm just assuming we have no friends or relatives of the Buckners here), but he really didn't. He had a very long career.
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Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:46 pm
Dude got a handjob like thousands of old dudes do every day. Big whoop.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by EnochRoot » Tue May 28, 2019 10:38 am

mister d wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 10:12 am
I know its not the T or the P (and I'm just assuming we have no friends or relatives of the Buckners here), but he really didn't. He had a very long career.
His chance of realizing something truly special went up in smoke when he suffered a debilitating ankle injury in ‘75.

No way of knowing, but when you realize how often he made contact (and how low his OBP was considering), I’m guessing his exit velocity got sapped something significant,

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Ryan
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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by Ryan » Tue May 28, 2019 10:39 am

He played with Jim Bunning and Phil Plantier. That's long.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by mister d » Tue May 28, 2019 11:00 am

If you like WAR, he's just better than half as good as the next lowest career WAR in the Last Half Century 10,000+ PA Club. Who wants to guess who that not-quite-double Buckner hitter is?
Rush2112 wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:46 pm
Dude got a handjob like thousands of old dudes do every day. Big whoop.

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L-Jam3
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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by L-Jam3 » Tue May 28, 2019 11:07 am

I'm only guessing by his similarity scores on BR, but
[+] spoiler
Steve Garvey
? And for the record, I don't think his comp is anywhere close to Hall-worthy either.
Last edited by L-Jam3 on Tue May 28, 2019 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by brian » Tue May 28, 2019 11:07 am

mister d wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:00 am
If you like WAR, he's just better than half as good as the next lowest career WAR in the Last Half Century 10,000+ PA Club. Who wants to guess who that not-quite-double Buckner hitter is?
Just looked it up and it's impressive in its own way that a dude who played for that long could have that low of a WAR.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by Nonlinear FC » Tue May 28, 2019 11:08 am

Amazing might not be the right descriptor... Remarkable is probably about right.

Also note, I didn't say he was a HOF'er.
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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by L-Jam3 » Tue May 28, 2019 11:10 am

Hey. Scott Sanderson died about a month and a half ago, as per the home page for BR. I missed that one. #RememberingSomeGuys
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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by mister d » Tue May 28, 2019 11:23 am

L-Jam3 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:07 am
And for the record, I don't think his comp is anywhere close to Hall-worthy either.
Its not your guess and I agree the comp isn't HoF worthy but ...
Rush2112 wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:46 pm
Dude got a handjob like thousands of old dudes do every day. Big whoop.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by Steve of phpBB » Tue May 28, 2019 11:29 am

L-Jam3 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:10 am
Hey. Scott Sanderson died about a month and a half ago, as per the home page for BR. I missed that one. #RememberingSomeGuys
Yeah, both Sanderson and Buckner hit me pretty hard.

I think the amazing thing about Buckner was how long he lasted considering how badly he was injured (and I think multiple times). When he came to the Cubs in 77, he was already pretty gimpy. But from 80 to 83, he played in almost every game, and had a 116 OPS+.

Plus I have a feeling that if the baseball world knew the value of a walk back then, he would have taken a lot more of them and improved his OBP and his resulting stats. He had that good of an eye.

(Somehow he managed to lead the league in assists from 1B four times from 82 through 86.)
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by Rex » Tue May 28, 2019 2:03 pm

mister d wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:00 am
If you like WAR, he's just better than half as good as the next lowest career WAR in the Last Half Century 10,000+ PA Club. Who wants to guess who that not-quite-double Buckner hitter is?
That's awesome.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by brian » Tue May 28, 2019 2:11 pm

Rex wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 2:03 pm
mister d wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:00 am
If you like WAR, he's just better than half as good as the next lowest career WAR in the Last Half Century 10,000+ PA Club. Who wants to guess who that not-quite-double Buckner hitter is?
That's awesome.
So who was it?

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by mister d » Tue May 28, 2019 2:15 pm

Rush2112 wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:46 pm
Dude got a handjob like thousands of old dudes do every day. Big whoop.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by mister d » Tue May 28, 2019 2:17 pm

If you expand to all-time 10,000+ PA, you get the same bottom two with 85 total members and a pretty interesting look at Bobby Abreu versus David Ortiz.
Rush2112 wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:46 pm
Dude got a handjob like thousands of old dudes do every day. Big whoop.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by A_B » Tue May 28, 2019 2:41 pm

Duke's working the knob! Flush it all

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by Steve of phpBB » Tue May 28, 2019 2:51 pm

mister d wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 2:17 pm
If you expand to all-time 10,000+ PA, you get the same bottom two with 85 total members and a pretty interesting look at Bobby Abreu versus David Ortiz.
I'm probably missing something obvious, but what is the logic behind docking a player 1.5 WAR per year for playing DH, a position that by definition doesn't require defense? Was Ortiz really that much worse at not playing defense as others who didn't play defense as DHs?
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by EnochRoot » Tue May 28, 2019 3:12 pm

Probably because WAR makes adjustments for defensive capability, down to the position they play.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by Steve of phpBB » Tue May 28, 2019 3:15 pm

EnochRoot wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 3:12 pm
Probably because WAR makes adjustments for defensive capability, down to the position they play.
Sure. But I don't see how Ortiz not playing defense cost his team 1.5 wins per year over a replacement designated hitter, who also would have not played defense.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by mister d » Tue May 28, 2019 3:29 pm

Who are you comparing Ortiz to here?
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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by EnochRoot » Tue May 28, 2019 3:30 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 3:15 pm
EnochRoot wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 3:12 pm
Probably because WAR makes adjustments for defensive capability, down to the position they play.
Sure. But I don't see how Ortiz not playing defense cost his team 1.5 wins per year over a replacement designated hitter, who also would have not played defense.
No, I don't think the replacement level player plays any particular position. It's just a definition of a bare-minimum skillset at anominal cost to help the team to a 120 loss season. Or something.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by Steve of phpBB » Tue May 28, 2019 4:22 pm

mister d wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 3:29 pm
Who are you comparing Ortiz to here?
No one in particular, just looking at where he is on the WAR list with a career 140 wRC+ over 10,000 PAs.

(So I guess I'm comparing him to everyone else on that career WAR list.)
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by DaveInSeattle » Tue May 28, 2019 6:17 pm


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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by mister d » Tue May 28, 2019 7:33 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 4:22 pm
No one in particular, just looking at where he is on the WAR list with a career 140 wRC+ over 10,000 PAs.

(So I guess I'm comparing him to everyone else on that career WAR list.)
I think I look at it the other way. Here's the 2004 Red Sox; is it in any way "fair" that David Ortiz is considered 4.2 win player to Manny Ramirez's 3.3 when Ramirez has slightly better offensive numbers and almost the exact same PAs?
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Dude got a handjob like thousands of old dudes do every day. Big whoop.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by EdRomero » Tue May 28, 2019 7:42 pm

Good article on him with more impressive info about his strikeout numbers: https://joeposnanski.com/billy-buck/
posnanski wrote:In 1980, the year he led the league in batting, he came to the plate 615 times. He struck out 18 of them.

Bryce Harper has struck out 19 times in the last two weeks.

Joey Gallo struck out 207 times in 2018.

Bill Buckner struck out 205 times in the 1970s. The whole decade.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by brian » Tue May 28, 2019 7:56 pm

Hasn’t the last half century of baseball scholarship proven that a strikeout is not that devastating of a result and the ability to not strike out - while impressive - not an especially important skill in the modern game?

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by EdRomero » Tue May 28, 2019 8:09 pm

That article kind of addresses it
That attitude, I suppose, is the big difference — for many players, for most players, the strikeout is an ordinary out now, no more or less damaging than an infield fly, better in many cases than a ground ball hit directly to an infielder. This is technically true — and always was true — but it only took hold as a universal philosophy in the last couple of decades.
It's impressive that he was the best at something that most batters valued when he played, but I like looking at it as a cool statistical thing comparing eras.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by Steve of phpBB » Wed May 29, 2019 11:22 am

mister d wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:33 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 4:22 pm
No one in particular, just looking at where he is on the WAR list with a career 140 wRC+ over 10,000 PAs.

(So I guess I'm comparing him to everyone else on that career WAR list.)
I think I look at it the other way. Here's the 2004 Red Sox; is it in any way "fair" that David Ortiz is considered 4.2 win player to Manny Ramirez's 3.3 when Ramirez has slightly better offensive numbers and almost the exact same PAs?
I guess if Ramirez played below average in the field, thus costing his team runs over what a replacement left fielder would have done, yes.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by mister d » Wed May 29, 2019 11:42 am

brian wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:56 pm
Hasn’t the last half century of baseball scholarship proven that a strikeout is not that devastating of a result and the ability to not strike out - while impressive - not an especially important skill in the modern game?
I think its more that its an almost universal trade-off to get power than it not being a valuable skill. Dimaggio and Pujols not striking out is pretty insane. Buckner not striking out is ... fine.
Rush2112 wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:46 pm
Dude got a handjob like thousands of old dudes do every day. Big whoop.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by mister d » Wed May 29, 2019 11:44 am

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:22 am
I guess if Ramirez played below average in the field, thus costing his team runs over what a replacement left fielder would have done, yes.
But part of the reason Ramirez is in the field is because Ortiz is even less capable. I'm not even sure how you'd work it out mathematically, but bad should still be preferable to absent when it comes to something outside the player's control.
Rush2112 wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:46 pm
Dude got a handjob like thousands of old dudes do every day. Big whoop.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by Steve of phpBB » Wed May 29, 2019 11:48 am

mister d wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:44 am
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:22 am
I guess if Ramirez played below average in the field, thus costing his team runs over what a replacement left fielder would have done, yes.
But part of the reason Ramirez is in the field is because Ortiz is even less capable. I'm not even sure how you'd work it out mathematically, but bad should still be preferable to absent when it comes to something outside the player's control.
Yeah, I see that. On the other hand, if a second baseman is forced to play shortstop because of injuries or roster construction, and does so badly, he still gets dinged for bad performance.

Who knows.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Bill Buckner

Post by mister d » Wed May 29, 2019 11:56 am

Yeah. I feel like I'm trying to separate the actual results from the player's responsibility for those results. Or something.
Rush2112 wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:46 pm
Dude got a handjob like thousands of old dudes do every day. Big whoop.

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