Poll: 80's Nostalgia vs 90's Nostalgia

[EdRomero]

But his name wasn’t on the sign!


You mad because they showed Dave saying “titties”?

Yes. haha. Also, this documentary sure is showing lots of titties, which is in pretty bad taste for a documentary complaining about the objectification of women at the festival.

[DSafetyGuy]

But his name wasn’t on the sign!


You mad because they showed Dave saying “titties”?

Yes. haha. Also, this documentary sure is showing lots of titties, which is in pretty bad taste for a documentary complaining about the objectification of women at the festival.

Are you saying that Simmons may be lacking self-awareness?

[EdRomero]

But his name wasn’t on the sign!


You mad because they showed Dave saying “titties”?

Yes. haha. Also, this documentary sure is showing lots of titties, which is in pretty bad taste for a documentary complaining about the objectification of women at the festival.

Are you saying that Simmons may be lacking self-awareness?

Guess that is one of his trademarks. That and the over analyzing and making way too big of a deal of the few specific things he cared about at the time without any context. I guess that's part of nostalgia (trying to bring it back to the thread). Let's blame Fred Durst for "singing" Break Stuff and Keidis for covering "Fire" after all the fires were started combined with Monica Lewinsky and y2k fears. Yeah, Bill Clinton and Girls Gone Wild tapes caused all the titty grabbing, and all the frat boy bands of course. Not like the earky 90's when popular music was so much more progressive (like Prodigy's Smack My Bitch Up). Did Under my Thumb cause the riots at Altamont or was it Joe Namath?

One of the cool clips of the doc was DMX alone on stage controlling the entire crowd, getting them to respond "my n*****," on command. That of course was followed by talking heads asking how did black kids at the show feel about seeing their white friends shouting the n word, and imagine how unsafe the black women at the show felt seeing that.

[EnochRoot]

But his name wasn’t on the sign!


You mad because they showed Dave saying “titties”?

Yes. haha. Also, this documentary sure is showing lots of titties, which is in pretty bad taste for a documentary complaining about the objectification of women at the festival.

Are you saying that Simmons may be lacking self-awareness?

Guess that is one of his trademarks. That and the over analyzing and making way too big of a deal of the few specific things he cared about at the time without any context. I guess that's part of nostalgia (trying to bring it back to the thread). Let's blame Fred Durst for "singing" Break Stuff and Keidis for covering "Fire" after all the fires were started combined with Monica Lewinsky and y2k fears. Yeah, Bill Clinton and Girls Gone Wild tapes caused all the titty grabbing, and all the frat boy bands of course. Not like the earky 90's when popular music was so much more progressive (like Prodigy's Smack My Bitch Up). Did Under my Thumb cause the riots at Altamont or was it Joe Namath?

One of the cool clips of the doc was DMX alone on stage controlling the entire crowd, getting them to respond "my n*****," on command. That of course was followed by talking heads asking how did black kids at the show feel about seeing their white friends shouting the n word, and imagine how unsafe the black women at the show felt seeing that.

IMO, MTV played a huge role in the shit-show that was Woodstock '99. And Ben Folds more or less made that same point in his song, Rockin' the Suburbs.

[rass]

I thought bringing up Clinton early was odd but it did a couple of things (as admittedly shallow as some of them were explored). It went with the blaming women for the behavior of men theme. The prosperity of the 90s let them go into the idea that those kids (us!) had no easily definable cause to unite against and the audacity of the boomer organizers for thinking they had to provide an experience like that. And it let them use that ridiculous Kid Rock clip.


And I’m the guy who has decided this summer that The Rewatchables is the perfect listen for my long Sunday runs so I guess I’m a mark for the Simmons style of delivery.

[EdRomero]

For assigning blame, I'd put about 90% at the setting and organizers. Maybe 5% at the type of people that concert attracted, but that really doesn't have much to do with the era. You'd see the same behavior in the 80's with 300,000 people in that setting watching Motley Crue, etc in the 80's, actually the same with a crowd in the early 90's watching Nirvana and Pearl Jam (then the documentary talking heads would blame it on Cobain singing Rape Me, instead of the horseshit we heard in the doc about Cobain supporting gender fluidity by wearing a dress on stage). Sure MTV made some shitty bands and people way too popular, but you don't need Fred Durst and Kid Rock singing to cause a bunch of meat heads in a terrible environment to be assholes.

[brian]

Haven’t seen the Woodstock doc yet though looking forward to it, but don’t think there’s any possible defense of Woodstock 99 critically or morally. Saying it was no different than the rest of the 90s is not exactly the best argument in its favor. I know it’s sensitive for some of us because that was our teens and 20s but it WAS a very rapey, misogynistic era.

And for whatever reasons, there was a definite undercurrent of anger in the popular music of the time.

[EdRomero]

I thought bringing up Clinton early was odd but it did a couple of things (as admittedly shallow as some of them were explored). It went with the blaming women for the behavior of men theme. The prosperity of the 90s let them go into the idea that those kids (us!) had no easily definable cause to unite against and the audacity of the boomer organizers for thinking they had to provide an experience like that. And it let them use that ridiculous Kid Rock clip.


And I’m the guy who has decided this summer that The Rewatchables is the perfect listen for my long Sunday runs so I guess I’m a mark for the Simmons style of delivery.

I was 25 and obsessed with U2 (watching my PopMart DVD), so don't include me in this (and I had a bit of DMB break during this time), so don't include me in this.

[EnochRoot]

For assigning blame, I'd put about 90% at the setting and organizers. Maybe 5% at the type of people that concert attracted, but that really doesn't have much to do with the era. You'd see the same behavior in the 80's with 300,000 people in that setting watching Motley Crue, etc in the 80's, actually the same with a crowd in the early 90's watching Nirvana and Pearl Jam (then the documentary talking heads would blame it on Cobain singing Rape Me, instead of the horseshit we heard in the doc about Cobain supporting gender fluidity by wearing a dress on stage). Sure MTV made some shitty bands and people way too popular, but you don't need Fred Durst and Kid Rock singing to cause a bunch of meat heads in a terrible environment to be assholes.

You actually do have a couple of events that were pulled off by Steve Wozniak and some concert promoter - the 1982 & 1983 US Festivals out in CA. There was a death due to a drug deal gone bad (some dude got whacked with a tire iron), but it wasn't nearly as rapey as Woodstock 99. The 1983 iteration was a four day festival: each genre New Wave, Heavy Metal, Rock, Country had their own exclusive days.

On Heavy Metal Day ~ Sunday, May 29, 1983: Quiet Riot, Motley Crue, Ozzy Osbourne, Judas Priest, Triumph, Scorpions, Van Halen.

Then again, you went home after each day. Inviting people to stay the weekend opens a whole host of other problems.

[EdRomero]

Haven’t seen the Woodstock doc yet though looking forward to it, but don’t think there’s any possible defense of Woodstock 99 critically or morally. Saying it was no different than the rest of the 90s is not exactly the best argument in its favor. I know it’s sensitive for some of us because that was our teens and 20s but it WAS a very rapey, misogynistic era.

And for whatever reasons, there was a definite undercurrent of anger in the popular music of the time.

I hope I'm not defending 99 Woodstock or the music of Limp Bizkit and Kid Rock. I just think they're overconnecting what was popular on MTV with what happened. And was that era we belonged to more rapey and misogynistic than other eras; is there data to back that up? I'm guessing the dominance of internent porn in the last few years has caused more problems than Bill Clinton, Girls Gone Wild, and Kid Rock in the late 90's

[mister d]

I’m sure I’ve heard a far worse hypothesis than “people predisposed to liking Kid Rock and Limp Bizkit land, on average, on the rapier side of the spectrum”.

[brian]

I’m sure I’ve heard a far worse hypothesis than “people predisposed to liking Kid Rock and Limp Bizkit land, on average, on the rapier side of the spectrum”.

I guess that’s a fair way to put what I was trying to say. I mean there was a fucking MASSIVE HIT in 1997 called “Smack My Bitch Up”. And don’t even get start on the misogyny in legitimately legendary hip hop artists of the era like Ice Cube, Wu-Tang et al. In retrospect it was kind of a dark time.

[mister d]

Word life, you don’t need a ring to be my wife
Just be there for me and I’m gone make sure we (will) be
living in the fucking lap of luxury

Write your own vows, Bri.

[mister d]

(I do think most guys were far more explicitly casual than rapey or violent. Now homophobia …)

[brian]

Was popular music more explicitly misogynistic in the 70s or 80s than the 90s? I mean you’d have to do some work to convince me. Nothing comes to mind as bad as Prodigy, Limp Bizkit, Kid Rock, ICP, hip-hop, etc.

(The Nirvana “Rape Me” is bullshit as it was obviously parodic though also a sign of it’s times.)

[EdRomero]

Was popular music more explicitly misogynistic in the 70s or 80s than the 90s? I mean you’d have to do some work to convince me. Nothing comes to mind as bad as Prodigy, Limp Bizkit, Kid Rock, ICP, hip-hop, etc.

(The Nirvana “Rape Me” is bullshit as it was obviously parodic though also a sign of it’s times.)

Yeah, you're probably right about the music. For some reason I thought Prodigy was early 90's. And while "Rape Me" was parodic, I don't think it would be interpretted that way if the people commenting in the doc were watching Cobain singing that at this festival (I guess if he faked his death and accepted the invitation), especially with their reaction to DMX. I'm still having problems with the doc and think the sexual violence was mostly caused by putting thousands of rapey meathead assholes in 100 degree unshaded heat for multiple days with no breaks, little water, and no safety, and I think the population of rapey meatheads assholes has stayed pretty consistent over the last 50 years.

[mister d]

I think it’s just always more explicit because each generation is. There’s infinite songs about statutory rape pre-90s and Lennon/Beatles had an insanely popular song that was just a long and musical threat.

[Johnnie]

I'm going to have to watch this doc. I remember watching this thing on my aunt's black box (remember those?) on the final night and just seeing mayhem break out.

I was 16 at the time and I definitely remember there being so much angst and hatred toward "The Man" at the time and the culture just seemed to encourage and exploit all of that.

And then there seemed to be a severe lack of water and really bad weather during those days too. But I am sure I'm probably missing a lot of other things. I did get my news about the festival from MTV after all.

[sancarlos]

There’s infinite songs about statutory rape pre-90s

...My Francine just turned thirteen
She's my angelic teenage queen
And I love her, she's all that I want
And I need her, she's all that I need...

[Johnnie]

Oh, speaking of Fred Durst and Limp Bizkit, btw....

[DaveInSeattle]

Saw this quote the other day:

“It’s one thing if you know your place, like, ‘Hey, I’m an idiot who plays shitty music, but people buy it, f**k it, I’m having fun’. But it’s another thing when you think you’re David Bowie after you’ve stayed up all night to write a song called ‘Break Stuff’,” Reznor laughs, injecting contempt into every word. “I mean, Fred Durst probably spelt the word ‘break’ wrong the first couple of times. Fred Durst might be a cool guy, I don’t know him. But his ‘art’ – in the word’s loosest sense – sucks.”

[The Sybian]

(I do think most guys were far more explicitly casual than rapey or violent. Now homophobia …)

The 90s were very date rapey. But what we called date rape in 90s was considered a normal date in the 80s.

[rass]

I’m sure I’ve heard a far worse hypothesis than “people predisposed to liking Kid Rock and Limp Bizkit land, on average, on the rapier side of the spectrum”.

I guess that’s a fair way to put what I was trying to say. I mean there was a fucking MASSIVE HIT in 1997 called “Smack My Bitch Up”. And don’t even get start on the misogyny in legitimately legendary hip hop artists of the era like Ice Cube, Wu-Tang et al. In retrospect it was kind of a dark time.

One of the talking heads in the doc made the point that nuMetal borrowed all of the misogyny and homophobia from hip hop and none of the musicality.

[mister d]

(I do think most guys were far more explicitly casual than rapey or violent. Now homophobia …)

The 90s were very date rapey. But what we called date rape in 90s was considered a normal date in the 80s.

Oh, that was specific to rap lyrics.

[DSafetyGuy]

Oh, speaking of Fred Durst and Limp Bizkit, btw....

I'm excited for Nathaniel Hornblower's memorial collection to be released.

[EnochRoot]

(I do think most guys were far more explicitly casual than rapey or violent. Now homophobia …)

The 90s were very date rapey. But what we called date rape in 90s was considered a normal date in the 80s.

We’ve talked about this before in the movies thread.

Teen comedies Sixteen Candles and Revenge of the Nerds both contain laugh-out-loud rapes.

[EnochRoot]

Was popular music more explicitly misogynistic in the 70s or 80s than the 90s? I mean you’d have to do some work to convince me. Nothing comes to mind as bad as Prodigy, Limp Bizkit, Kid Rock, ICP, hip-hop, etc.

(The Nirvana “Rape Me” is bullshit as it was obviously parodic though also a sign of it’s times.)

Yeah, you're probably right about the music. For some reason I thought Prodigy was early 90's. And while "Rape Me" was parodic, I don't think it would be interpretted that way if the people commenting in the doc were watching Cobain singing that at this festival (I guess if he faked his death and accepted the invitation), especially with their reaction to DMX. I'm still having problems with the doc and think the sexual violence was mostly caused by putting thousands of rapey meathead assholes in 100 degree unshaded heat for multiple days with no breaks, little water, and no safety, and I think the population of rapey meatheads assholes has stayed pretty consistent over the last 50 years.

This

Saw this quote the other day:

“It’s one thing if you know your place, like, ‘Hey, I’m an idiot who plays shitty music, but people buy it, f**k it, I’m having fun’. But it’s another thing when you think you’re David Bowie after you’ve stayed up all night to write a song called ‘Break Stuff’,” Reznor laughs, injecting contempt into every word. “I mean, Fred Durst probably spelt the word ‘break’ wrong the first couple of times. Fred Durst might be a cool guy, I don’t know him. But his ‘art’ – in the word’s loosest sense – sucks.”

There’s a lowest common denominator of people who put far too much weight into the lyrics of a song. Ray Davies writes about this in the Kinks song, ‘Juke Box Music.’

[L-Jam3]

I was in my 20s during this time they're describing, and I legitimately don't know a single Limp Biscuit song, nor do I think I could recognize one if I heard it. From the discourse you guys are going through, I consider myself lucky.

[Johnnie]

I want to fuck that Trent Reznor quote like an animal.

[rass]

80s time.

The radio station I listen to during the work day is doing an MTV week, kicking off with the first 100 unique songs played on the channel. 11 of them, 11/100, are Rod Stewart songs!

[govmentchedda]

Hell yes

[A_B]

Scottish history of the day!

[brian]

Scottish history of the day!

Bugger off, ya feckin' twat.

[EnochRoot]

OK you guys asked for it. Awaken the Scottish beast, will ye?!

[The Sybian]

(I do think most guys were far more explicitly casual than rapey or violent. Now homophobia …)

The 90s were very date rapey. But what we called date rape in 90s was considered a normal date in the 80s.

Oh, that was specific to rap lyrics.

My bad, I quoted the wrong post.

[rass]

They came across as good dudes in the Woodstock 99 doc, too

[EnochRoot]

They came across as good dudes in the Woodstock 99 doc, too

They were fun. I want Ugly Kid Joe's song, "Hate everything about you" to be by Offspring so that I could like them better though.

Saw this quote the other day:

“It’s one thing if you know your place, like, ‘Hey, I’m an idiot who plays shitty music, but people buy it, f**k it, I’m having fun’. But it’s another thing when you think you’re David Bowie after you’ve stayed up all night to write a song called ‘Break Stuff’,” Reznor laughs, injecting contempt into every word. “I mean, Fred Durst probably spelt the word ‘break’ wrong the first couple of times. Fred Durst might be a cool guy, I don’t know him. But his ‘art’ – in the word’s loosest sense – sucks.”

[sancarlos]

It's good that they don't take themselves too seriously. I've always enjoyed their classic old stuff. Funny thing, their main guy Dexter Holland has a PhD in molecular biology (and also was his high school class valedictorian.)

[DSafetyGuy]

Probably hard to share a dressing room with a guy who wrote his PhD thesis on HIV and...

[brian]

I finally watched the Woodstock '99 documentary this morning and thought it was pretty good.

It's interesting that I was just a little too old to be the target demographic because while I was a fan of some of the bands on the festival (and wouldn't have gone even if someone had paid for my tickets), the whole thing at the time kind of slipped under my radar. I mean I knew it was going on, but I don't think I knew what a shitshow it was or really had any kind of thoughts about it at the time one way or the other. (I was traveling about 240 days a year for work at the time, so a LOT of stuff around that time didn't really end up pinging on my radar.)

Definitely took a lot of chutzpah for the organizer to pin most of the blame on Fred Durst and the bands for the eventual carnage. I don't know if I've ever seen Limp Bizkit live (they might have been on a bill I saw with some other acts it seems like -- again, the late 90s and early aughts are a bit fuzzy) but the song is called "Break Stuff" and I don't think they performed it any differently than they did any of the other several hundred times they've performed that song, almost none of which resulted in a riot as far as I know. I hate having to defend Limp Bizkit, but here we are.

I feel like the filmmakers did a good job explaining that in addition to the bill featuring too many angsty, aggressive artists that there was definitely a distinct change in the vibe of the country and in popular music from the early 90s to the late 90s, reflected in the lineup as well. I think another of the reasons Woodstock 99 didn't register with me is because I was already starting to get too old to feel that disaffected and alienated from society. I definitely identified with late 80s/early 90s bands like Soundgarden, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, et al which the filmmakers noted seemed to embody more progressive values than groups to come like Korn, Limp Bizkit, Kid Rock, etc. By the late 90s the band which I probably have most liked to have seen at Woodstock and whose set I've seen online several times (it's great, check it out!) is Tragically Hip.

That's neither here nor there I suppose, but I thought it was well-done and didn't suffer from too much typical Bill Simmons navel gazing.

One thing that I don't know is fair, but which is possibly a legitimate question is that how much some of the issues also came not only from the lineup, but from most of the attendees of Woodstock 99 probably coming from within a 300 (or so) mile circle of upstate NY, which would include New York City, Boston, New Jersey, Philadelphia, etc. It's not fair to generalize, but it's not the most chill part of the country, let's just say that. You put a couple hundred thousands kids from within 300 miles of say Minneapolis or Sacramento and the same bill in summer 1999, does the same thing happen? (I mean, probably yes, possibly yes, but might be a fair question.)