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Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:24 am
by govmentchedda
HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:19 am
But you're wrong about the educational impact. It will be real. And you do compete with private school kids for opportunities and other states kids' and other countries kids. That's real. And there will be a real impact on achievement and testing. I agree to some extent that you just adjust the pace of learning (way slower) and move on but don't dismiss those costs. They're real and will impact opportunities.
I suppose where we differ on this is what we're willing to suffer. To me, the educational impact and the economic impact are less important than the health impact.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:26 am
by mister d
Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:17 amI think in the NE, where everyone continues to take it seriously, there's a fighting chance.
But doesn't mass opening of (indoor!) schools reverse the whole "taking it seriously" thing? The second you do that, you're halfway back down the safety order and just waiting a few weeks for the new outbreaks.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:26 am
by A_B
Plus, I think those private schools are going to end up having to shut down anyway, then they are in scramble mode if they aren't actively preparing for the contingency alongside getting ready to go back to school. That will affect the "gap" but I also don't think most private schools really give that much of a better education than public schools under normal circumstances.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:27 am
by mister d
govmentchedda wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:24 amI suppose where we differ on this is what we're willing to suffer. To me, the educational impact and the economic impact are less important than the health impact.
Yeah, I can't follow this either. "It so sad that Mrs. _______ died but atleast my kid didn't fall behind the prior national standard for 4th grade math" isn't even a consideration.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:29 am
by govmentchedda
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:30 am
by A_B
mister d wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:27 am
... I... Mr...d...fall behind the ...national standard for 4th grade math...
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:31 am
by HaulCitgo
Yeah to all. It's pretty clear that the risk to kids is low and I'm probably on the other side of that analysis. But maybe not me or the wife or grandma. I'm worth more dead than alive but I bet the kids would rather have me around so yeah. A choice to be made for sure. And yeah it's one thing to send em in the first day and another to send em in when kids are getting sick. To some extent they needed to open to get paid. Then they can shutter. We shall see. Not looking forward.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:34 am
by tennbengal
A_B wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:26 am
Plus, I think those private schools are going to end up having to shut down anyway, then they are in scramble mode if they aren't actively preparing for the contingency alongside getting ready to go back to school. That will affect the "gap" but I also don't think most private schools really give that much of a better education than public schools under normal circumstances.
My son's now-former private school is having the HS portion of the school remote this fall (outside chance of two days a week on campus for portions of the high school students). They are planning on in-person for the elementary and middle school. Their explanation is that the physical plans for the lower and middle school will allow for social distancing but that the upper school buildings do not have enough space to safely gather.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:35 am
by mister d
HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:31 amA choice to be made for sure. And yeah it's one thing to send em in the first day and another to send em in when kids are getting sick. To some extent they needed to open to get paid.
Well right, and that gets to the crux. In order to feign normalcy or, in the private example, ensure revenue, there's a trade-off and that trade-off is sick (or worse) teachers, staff and potentially children. "We tried but you saw what happened so we have to scale back" is the 100% inevitable result here. Should be a non-starter.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:36 am
by HaulCitgo
mister d wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:27 am
govmentchedda wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:24 amI suppose where we differ on this is what we're willing to suffer. To me, the educational impact and the economic impact are less important than the health impact.
Yeah, I can't follow this either. "It so sad that Mrs. _______ died but atleast my kid didn't fall behind the prior national standard for 4th grade math" isn't even a consideration.
And once again Mr. D oversteps. The most important stuff you learn is K-5. If you can't do 4th grade math you will never get to trig. Math especially piles on top of prior foundations. Tons of kids will walk out of this thing without the foundations to succeed. Then the will get disinterested and discouraged and won't succeed when they might have otherwise. Best case the whole system slows to accommodate that group but that's almost a bigger problem because now no one is on pace. You guys say this but I also read the college admissions posts a year or two back so you can't have it both ways.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:37 am
by A_B
Kentucky passed a resolution that funding wouldn't be tied to days in physical session for the upcoming year.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:37 am
by HaulCitgo
tennbengal wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:34 am
A_B wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:26 am
Plus, I think those private schools are going to end up having to shut down anyway, then they are in scramble mode if they aren't actively preparing for the contingency alongside getting ready to go back to school. That will affect the "gap" but I also don't think most private schools really give that much of a better education than public schools under normal circumstances.
My son's now-former private school is having the HS portion of the school remote this fall (outside chance of two days a week on campus for portions of the high school students). They are planning on in-person for the elementary and middle school. Their explanation is that the physical plans for the lower and middle school will allow for social distancing but that the upper school buildings do not have enough space to safely gather.
Exact same explanation. They also said the older kids have to switch classrooms.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:39 am
by mister d
We're not going to agree that a kid falling behind on math is an equal concern to a kid losing their parent the teacher. And this isn't some wild hyperbole ... COVID spreads indoors and COVID kills people. Its simply a matter of how many teachers will die.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:40 am
by The Sybian
HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:31 am
Yeah to all. It's pretty clear that the risk to kids is low and I'm probably on the other side of that analysis. But maybe not me or the wife or grandma. I'm worth more dead than alive but I bet the kids would rather have me around so yeah. A choice to be made for sure. And yeah it's one thing to send em in the first day and another to send em in when kids are getting sick. To some extent they needed to open to get paid. Then they can shutter. We shall see. Not looking forward.
And what about all the teachers, janitors, and other school employees who will get sick? What are we going to do in districts where huge numbers of teachers are out sick? How many people will be willing to go in as substitutes for a few bucks an hour in a district with numerous teachers sick? Much like Florida and Texas with their rush to open the economy, they are now behind where they would have been if they practiced some safety precautions and slowed the opening of bars and restaurants and required masks. I'd guess a lot of schools that fully open up will fall behind the schools that have a more cautious approach.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:41 am
by HaulCitgo
But it's not black and white. It's how many parents teachers are worth it. Otherwise you wouldn't drive to school. If you can't get your head wrapped around some acceptable level of death I can't discuss with you. We make those decisions daily.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:42 am
by BSF21
mister d wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:39 am
We're not going to agree that a kid falling behind on math is an equal concern to a kid losing their parent the teacher. And this isn't some wild hyperbole ... COVID spreads indoors and COVID kills people. Its simply a matter of how many teachers will die.
Yup. This is a not if but when and how many situation. People trying to make this about the health of the children are deflecting. We've seen the trends regarding children. This has always been about teachers and support staff for running an indoor germ haven.
I hurt for those of you with children struggling to try to do what's right. But I assure you that a bunch of dead teachers is going to hurt your kids' future learning prospects in far broader terms than staying out of a physical classroom for 6 months.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:42 am
by A_B
mister d wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:39 am
We're not going to agree that a kid falling behind on math is an equal concern to a kid losing their parent the teacher. And this isn't some wild hyperbole ... COVID spreads indoors and COVID kills people. Its simply a matter of how many teachers will die.
And subs are surely going to be lining up to come in when a teacher has to take two weeks off, right!?!?!
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:44 am
by A_B
HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:41 am
But it's not black and white. It's how many parents teachers are worth it. Otherwise you wouldn't drive to school. If you can't get your head wrapped around some acceptable level of death I can't discuss with you. We make those decisions daily.
OK. I have a number. It's 0. Yes, we take risks driving to school or work. But we also let the government make rules to mitigate those risks. If every five months 150k people died on the roads, you can damn sure bet we'd all be on mass rail transit.
You're absolutely taking the Stalin approach here.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:44 am
by BSF21
HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:41 am
But it's not black and white. It's how many parents teachers are worth it. Otherwise you wouldn't drive to school. If you can't get your head wrapped around some acceptable level of death I can't discuss with you. We make those decisions daily.
If you're trying to equivocate the inherent risk of driving a car to the worst pandemic we've seen in a century, you're not exactly on the level to start a discussion about this.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:44 am
by HaulCitgo
Nothing is 0. You're delusional. They put up signs with road deaths on the highways here. It's very very high. Probably about 150k nationally so I'd bet you're wrong. More like 35k but still.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:46 am
by BSF21
HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:44 am
Nothing is 0. You're delusional.
What if we moved the risks to your children? Let's say the virus infects 20% of kids under the age of 10 with 1/10 of those suffering a fatality.
You cool with those risks or is it just other's loved ones you're cool with an "acceptable level" for?
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:48 am
by HaulCitgo
Where the hell are you getting those numbers. And it is my kids!
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:49 am
by govmentchedda
HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:36 am
mister d wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:27 am
govmentchedda wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:24 amI suppose where we differ on this is what we're willing to suffer. To me, the educational impact and the economic impact are less important than the health impact.
Yeah, I can't follow this either. "It so sad that Mrs. _______ died but atleast my kid didn't fall behind the prior national standard for 4th grade math" isn't even a consideration.
And once again Mr. D oversteps. The most important stuff you learn is K-5. If you can't do 4th grade math you will never get to trig. Math especially piles on top of prior foundations. Tons of kids will walk out of this thing without the foundations to succeed. Then the will get disinterested and discouraged and won't succeed when they might have otherwise. Best case the whole system slows to accommodate that group but that's almost a bigger problem because now no one is on pace. You guys say this but I also read the college admissions posts a year or two back so you can't have it both ways.
I can only speak for myself and my family, (and fully recognize that my sons being 14, 12, and 6, i.e. not really at the college admissions age, but getting there), but I am not that concerned about college admissions. They'll go where they'll go. It doesn't make sense to me or my wife to have our own expectations for them having to get into X university.
I definitely agree with most important stuff being learned at K-5 (and would probably argue that ought to be even younger than that).
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:50 am
by A_B
HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:44 am
Nothing is 0. You're delusional. They put up signs with road deaths on the highways here. It's very very high. Probably about 150k nationally so I'd bet you're wrong. More like 35k but still.
It was 37k for the 12 months of 2018 for the whole of the US. When we have 12 months of COVID data we can compare corpses to corpses, I guess, but it's already 4X that number.
If it's possible to not send teachers/students into an area where they may get infected, why would you not go that route?
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:51 am
by A_B
HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:44 am
Nothing is 0. You're delusional. They put up signs with road deaths on the highways here. It's very very high.
Probably about 150k nationally so I'd bet you're wrong. More like 35k but still.
This makes perfect sense, BTW.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:54 am
by mister d
HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:41 am
But it's not black and white. It's how many parents teachers are worth it. Otherwise you wouldn't drive to school. If you can't get your head wrapped around some acceptable level of death I can't discuss with you. We make those decisions daily.
So if someone is spraying a semi-automatic outside your house you're going to send a kid our for milk because "I really want cereal and, since we assume risks every day, any debate over acceptable risk is inherently balanced" or whatever the fuck you're trying to prove with that equivocation? Driving has risks, ones I assume when I drive a car. I don't demand teachers get in their cars while I do or do not sit safely at home. And I don't for a second pretend for the sake of debate that if all schools were open we'd lose as many teachers to car accidents as we would to COVID.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:55 am
by mister d
HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:48 am
Where the hell are you getting those numbers. And it is my kids!
And the only reason you're in this debate admitting teachers/staff will die is because kids are safe. If mortality were even across ages, these last 20 posts and so many before it never happen.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:55 am
by HaulCitgo
My risk of a car death is much higher than the national average because I'm on insane highways on a daily basis. Conversely my risk of covid death is lower because the kids are young and wife and I are reasonably healthy. So those risks aren't that far off. Still you act like it's insane to accept necessary and daily risk while you do the same everyday without qualms.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:57 am
by HaulCitgo
mister d wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:54 am
HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:41 am
But it's not black and white. It's how many parents teachers are worth it. Otherwise you wouldn't drive to school. If you can't get your head wrapped around some acceptable level of death I can't discuss with you. We make those decisions daily.
So if someone is spraying a semi-automatic outside your house you're going to send a kid our for milk because "I really want cereal and, since we assume risks every day, any debate over acceptable risk is inherently balanced" or whatever the fuck you're trying to prove with that equivocation? Driving has risks, ones I assume when I drive a car. I don't demand teachers get in their cars while I do or do not sit safely at home. And I don't for a second pretend for the sake of debate that if all schools were open we'd lose as many teachers to car accidents as we would to COVID.
People do exactly that on the daily as well. Murder rate is high in these parts. Yet folks go to the park.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:04 am
by DSafetyGuy
duff wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:07 am If they are
canceling conventions and other large gatherings, why schools?
Not all conventions. In fact, there are some people who just this morning grabbed a box and threw some daily life items needed for three weeks of living in some sort of pseudo-furnished housing (toilet paper, paper towels, hand sanitizer, dish soap, etc.). And they have already bookmarked the website with the paperwork they will need to complete and present upon returning to their home state. Some even talked about how they're going to self-quarantine in their master bedroom and bath for two weeks after getting home, which will include the partner staying home moving some furniture from the master into the spare bedroom and other furniture into the master bedroom while the traveler is gone.
Between discussing this and some return-to-school plans, some of these people have had a really sensational morning.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:05 am
by BSF21
mister d wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:55 am
HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:48 am
Where the hell are you getting those numbers. And it is my kids!
And the only reason you're in this debate admitting teachers/staff will die is because kids are safe. If mortality were even across ages, these last 20 posts and so many before it never happen.
That's the point. The numbers were out of my ass, but be on the lookout for quick and ruthless infection rates among adults in these situations. You're inside a building packed with people FFS.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:07 am
by DSafetyGuy
How do we all think a loved teacher dying from teaching affects the educational process of and results for young children?
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:08 am
by mister d
HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:55 am
My risk of a car death is much higher than the national average because I'm on insane highways on a daily basis.
And the next time I force you onto the highway, we now have an strong analogy.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:08 am
by brian
DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:07 am
How do we all think a loved teacher dying from teaching affects the educational process of and results for young children?
And the more sensitive and empathetic kids are going to internalize that guilt for the rest of their lives.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:09 am
by BSF21
DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:07 am
How do we all think a loved teacher dying from teaching affects the educational process of and results for young children?
Who cares? Chances are "low" and it's not my family so fuck em!
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:09 am
by Ryan
IF WE COULD ALL BUT ELIMINATE CAR CRASHES BY NOT DRIVING FOR 2 WEEKS, I WOULD THROW MY KEYS IN THE RIVER AND YOU SHOULD TOO
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:11 am
by mister d
DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:07 am
How do we all think a loved teacher dying from teaching affects the educational process of and results for young children?
Right? And then eventually how does that generation view our generation knowing we're the ones who pushed for open schools in order to not lose some months of normal instruction?
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:17 am
by Ryan
My elementary school guidance counselor wife agress with almost all of you. Also, she can't hug or even gently pull away the kids who don't separate well from their parents on the worst first day of school they will ever have. Or can she? She hasn't been told. And if she can, and everyone's dressed like they're about to take apart E.T., can she then just take a couple months off to recover from that first 4 minutes of the year because that's what it's going to take.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:24 am
by duff
BSF21 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:09 am
DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:07 am
How do we all think a loved teacher dying from teaching affects the educational process of and results for young children?
Who cares? Chances are "low" and it's not my family so fuck em!
But it is my FUCKING family. And Cerrrano. And EdRomero. And BFJ's family and any others on here that have loved ones in schools or are teachers themselves. So HC, please kindly fuck off with your inherent risk of kids going to schools. Missing out on 6-12 months of education is not going to fail these kids. It just won't.
Re: The Captain Trips Anxiety thread
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:36 am
by HaulCitgo
If you don't want to go to work dont go. You have a choice too