The Swamp

Posted: **Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:11 am**

Giff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:38 am Yeah, there's really not much the defense has now. The testimony yesterday that a healthy person would've died too was pretty damning, IMO. Also, the bystander testimonies are just gut-wrenching. The guilt they're going to carry the rest of their lives because of this racist piece of shit is so sad. And the defense trying to paint them as angry is just infuriating.

That is the prosecution's case. We'll have to see about the defense. Yesterday's testimony by Mr. Tobin was pretty damning but the defense will have their own expert witnesses For example, the Hennepin County medical examiner, who did ruled a homicide. He concluded homicide, but said that Floyd died of cardiopulmonary arrest, saying he did not die of traumatic asphyxiation and I'll rule it a homicide because I understand what happened here with the knee on the neck. But he died of something bad that happened to his heart in this moment.

Posted: **Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:29 am**

degenerasian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:11 am
Giff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:38 am Yeah, there's really not much the defense has now. The testimony yesterday that a healthy person would've died too was pretty damning, IMO. Also, the bystander testimonies are just gut-wrenching. The guilt they're going to carry the rest of their lives because of this racist piece of shit is so sad. And the defense trying to paint them as angry is just infuriating.
That is the prosecution's case. We'll have to see about the defense. Yesterday's testimony by Mr. Tobin was pretty damning but the defense will have their own expert witnesses For example, the Hennepin County medical examiner, who did ruled a homicide. He concluded homicide, but said that Floyd died of cardiopulmonary arrest, saying he did not die of traumatic asphyxiation and I'll rule it a homicide because I understand what happened here with the knee on the neck. But he died of something bad that happened to his heart in this moment.

Well admittedly not a doctor I think it makes sense that having a 200-pound dude kneeling on your airway for 10 minutes might not be super great for your heart either.

Posted: **Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:37 am**

brian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:29 am
degenerasian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:11 am
Giff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:38 am Yeah, there's really not much the defense has now. The testimony yesterday that a healthy person would've died too was pretty damning, IMO. Also, the bystander testimonies are just gut-wrenching. The guilt they're going to carry the rest of their lives because of this racist piece of shit is so sad. And the defense trying to paint them as angry is just infuriating.
That is the prosecution's case. We'll have to see about the defense. Yesterday's testimony by Mr. Tobin was pretty damning but the defense will have their own expert witnesses For example, the Hennepin County medical examiner, who did ruled a homicide. He concluded homicide, but said that Floyd died of cardiopulmonary arrest, saying he did not die of traumatic asphyxiation and I'll rule it a homicide because I understand what happened here with the knee on the neck. But he died of something bad that happened to his heart in this moment.
Well admittedly not a doctor I think it makes sense that having a 200-pound dude kneeling on your airway for 10 minutes might not be super great for your heart either.

Yup. It's manslaughter for sure. Probably third degree. Is there enough for second? You have to prove intent and the last 4 minutes of that video are pretty damning. But the defense will try to show when happened before the 929. How much did Chauvin know when he arrived onto the scene? How violent was Floyd being? The defense are going to use the body cams of the other officers.

Posted: **Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:43 am**

degenerasian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:37 am
brian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:29 am
degenerasian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:11 am
Giff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:38 am Yeah, there's really not much the defense has now. The testimony yesterday that a healthy person would've died too was pretty damning, IMO. Also, the bystander testimonies are just gut-wrenching. The guilt they're going to carry the rest of their lives because of this racist piece of shit is so sad. And the defense trying to paint them as angry is just infuriating.
That is the prosecution's case. We'll have to see about the defense. Yesterday's testimony by Mr. Tobin was pretty damning but the defense will have their own expert witnesses For example, the Hennepin County medical examiner, who did ruled a homicide. He concluded homicide, but said that Floyd died of cardiopulmonary arrest, saying he did not die of traumatic asphyxiation and I'll rule it a homicide because I understand what happened here with the knee on the neck. But he died of something bad that happened to his heart in this moment.
Well admittedly not a doctor I think it makes sense that having a 200-pound dude kneeling on your airway for 10 minutes might not be super great for your heart either.
Yup. It's manslaughter for sure. Probably third degree. Is there enough for second? You have to prove intent and the last 4 minutes of that video are pretty damning. But the defense will try to show when happened before the 929. How much did Chauvin know when he arrived onto the scene? How violent was Floyd being? The defense are going to use the body cams of the other officers.

In Minnesota, the prosecution doesn't need to prove intent to convict for third degree murder. Third-degree murder occurs when a person causes a death by "perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life."

This seems open-and-shut to me, but of course the only information I'm getting is being filtered through liberal Twitter.

Posted: **Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:07 am**

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:43 am
degenerasian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:37 am
brian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:29 am
degenerasian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:11 am
Giff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:38 am Yeah, there's really not much the defense has now. The testimony yesterday that a healthy person would've died too was pretty damning, IMO. Also, the bystander testimonies are just gut-wrenching. The guilt they're going to carry the rest of their lives because of this racist piece of shit is so sad. And the defense trying to paint them as angry is just infuriating.
That is the prosecution's case. We'll have to see about the defense. Yesterday's testimony by Mr. Tobin was pretty damning but the defense will have their own expert witnesses For example, the Hennepin County medical examiner, who did ruled a homicide. He concluded homicide, but said that Floyd died of cardiopulmonary arrest, saying he did not die of traumatic asphyxiation and I'll rule it a homicide because I understand what happened here with the knee on the neck. But he died of something bad that happened to his heart in this moment.
Well admittedly not a doctor I think it makes sense that having a 200-pound dude kneeling on your airway for 10 minutes might not be super great for your heart either.
Yup. It's manslaughter for sure. Probably third degree. Is there enough for second? You have to prove intent and the last 4 minutes of that video are pretty damning. But the defense will try to show when happened before the 929. How much did Chauvin know when he arrived onto the scene? How violent was Floyd being? The defense are going to use the body cams of the other officers.
In Minnesota, the prosecution doesn't need to prove intent to convict for third degree murder. Third-degree murder occurs when a person causes a death by "perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life."

This seems open-and-shut to me, but of course the only information I'm getting is being filtered through liberal Twitter.

I'm not sure that fits here. In fact, didn't this judge try to throw out the third degree charge and the appeals court put it back in?
"An act eminently dangerous to others" would be more like I'm a storeowner, you come in and shoplift. Then I chase you out into the streets and shoot wildly killing a bystander.

Posted: **Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:12 am**

degenerasian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:07 am
Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:43 am
degenerasian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:37 am
brian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:29 am
degenerasian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:11 am
Giff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:38 am Yeah, there's really not much the defense has now. The testimony yesterday that a healthy person would've died too was pretty damning, IMO. Also, the bystander testimonies are just gut-wrenching. The guilt they're going to carry the rest of their lives because of this racist piece of shit is so sad. And the defense trying to paint them as angry is just infuriating.
That is the prosecution's case. We'll have to see about the defense. Yesterday's testimony by Mr. Tobin was pretty damning but the defense will have their own expert witnesses For example, the Hennepin County medical examiner, who did ruled a homicide. He concluded homicide, but said that Floyd died of cardiopulmonary arrest, saying he did not die of traumatic asphyxiation and I'll rule it a homicide because I understand what happened here with the knee on the neck. But he died of something bad that happened to his heart in this moment.
Well admittedly not a doctor I think it makes sense that having a 200-pound dude kneeling on your airway for 10 minutes might not be super great for your heart either.
Yup. It's manslaughter for sure. Probably third degree. Is there enough for second? You have to prove intent and the last 4 minutes of that video are pretty damning. But the defense will try to show when happened before the 929. How much did Chauvin know when he arrived onto the scene? How violent was Floyd being? The defense are going to use the body cams of the other officers.
In Minnesota, the prosecution doesn't need to prove intent to convict for third degree murder. Third-degree murder occurs when a person causes a death by "perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life."

This seems open-and-shut to me, but of course the only information I'm getting is being filtered through liberal Twitter.
I'm not sure that fits here. In fact, didn't this judge try to throw out the third degree charge and the appeals court put it back in?
"An act eminently dangerous to others" would be more like I'm a storeowner, you come in and shoplift. Then I chase you out into the streets and shoot wildly killing a bystander.

I think you may be right about the charge being thrown out and reinstated. That sounds familiar.

Your example is the classic one for this kind of murder theory, but I'm also quite confident that putting your knee onto the back of someone's neck for nine minutes is eminently dangerous to the person you're doing it to.

Posted: **Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:13 am**

Giff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:10 am
The Sybian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:05 am
Giff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:38 am Yeah, there's really not much the defense has now. The testimony yesterday that a healthy person would've died too was pretty damning, IMO. Also, the bystander testimonies are just gut-wrenching. The guilt they're going to carry the rest of their lives because of this racist piece of shit is so sad. And the defense trying to paint them as angry is just infuriating.
I haven't followed directly, but hear commentary on a couple of podcasts (Preet Bharara an Elie Honig, both former Federal Prosecutors) and they are both amazed by the strength of the prosecutions case. They were surprised at the number of police officers testifying on behalf of the prosecution, including the Chief and the guy in charge of training. They also had the firefighter who witnessed it, and bystanders who called 911 on the police! I think they even played the call in court. The judge allowed them to play the entire 8+ minutes recording... I can't see how Chauvin isn't convicted of something here, but with a jury, you just never know. You just need one pro-Cop juror to refuse to convict, and you have a hung jury.
The 911 dispatcher who took the call called his supervisor while it was going on! I think even having one pro-cop juror isn't as big a worry here when so many cops are testifying against him.

You should be correct, I'm just cynical and jaded when it comes to juries. Beyond pro-Cop, I think an anti-BLM person is more dangerous on the jury.

Posted: **Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:34 am**

This video is fucking infuriating.

Posted: **Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:56 am**

That's really crazy. Why are they pointing a gun at him? Is the cop scared the guy has guns by his seat? What's he supposed to open the door with? His cock?

Posted: **Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:56 pm**

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:56 amWhy are they pointing a gun at him?

Because they can.

I really wonder if "Disarm the Police" would've been a better rallying cry than Defund.

At a minimum, the removal of a gun from the holster should be considered a use of force and subject to review and justification. For fuck sake, cops work for all of us; they shouldn't be pointing guns at any of us (i.e., threatening to kill us) without a fucking good reason.

Posted: **Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:27 pm**

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:56 pm
degenerasian wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:56 amWhy are they pointing a gun at him?
Because they can.

I really wonder if "Disarm the Police" would've been a better rallying cry than Defund.

At a minimum, the removal of a gun from the holster should be considered a use of force and subject to review and justification. For fuck sake, cops work for all of us; they shouldn't be pointing guns at any of us (i.e., threatening to kill us) without a fucking good reason.

You would know more than me but the countering statistic would be, how often do cops get shot by an unseen gun when they approach a car?
Thus the having to see hands at all times. Or how often are guns in the car at all? I guess it depends on the area. I have no idea because in Canada, getting pulled over by the cops is a friendly conversation.

Posted: **Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:14 pm**

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:27 pmYou would know more than me but the countering statistic would be, how often do cops get shot by an unseen gun when they approach a car?
Thus the having to see hands at all times. Or how often are guns in the car at all? I guess it depends on the area. I have no idea because in Canada, getting pulled over by the cops is a friendly conversation.

Probably way fewer times than people die from bee stings.

I guess the real question is how often *would* cops get shot when approaching a car, if cops didn't have guns on them. I still don't think it's enough to justify routinely threatening to kill everyone you pull over, which is what the cop is going if/when he pulls a gun.

Posted: **Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:15 pm**

A non-zero amount of cops have died from routine traffic stops, therefore zero traffic stops must be routine.

Posted: **Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:23 pm**

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:38 am**

DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:06 pm
EnochRoot wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:47 pm
Pruitt wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:25 pm
EnochRoot wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:23 pm
rass wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:11 pm That I don’t know. And don’t know that it matters.

I do think that what we know about an artist can affect our enjoyment of their work. But no one hears Tears In Heaven and thinks it’s an anti-unlocked windows song, much less racist.
The takeaway here is that Van Morrison has now recruited Eric Clapton into a presumed anti-lockdown song, not whether the artists have done anything relevant to any of us in the past 40 years.
A lot of "hip" 70 year olds are tearing their few remaining hairs out over this.
There's a xenophobic bent to a lot of older British musicians. Elvis Costello, Roger Waters, Clapton.
Morrissey is one of the worst.

Morrissey blasts 'The Simpsons' for 'harshly hateful' and 'hypocritical' parody

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:32 am**

I watched it last night knowing it irritated him so much and it made it even funnier!

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:42 am**

I had no idea the Simpsons were still making new shows.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:56 am**

Pruitt wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:38 am
DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:06 pm
EnochRoot wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:47 pm
Pruitt wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:25 pm
EnochRoot wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:23 pm
rass wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:11 pm That I don’t know. And don’t know that it matters.

I do think that what we know about an artist can affect our enjoyment of their work. But no one hears Tears In Heaven and thinks it’s an anti-unlocked windows song, much less racist.
The takeaway here is that Van Morrison has now recruited Eric Clapton into a presumed anti-lockdown song, not whether the artists have done anything relevant to any of us in the past 40 years.
A lot of "hip" 70 year olds are tearing their few remaining hairs out over this.
There's a xenophobic bent to a lot of older British musicians. Elvis Costello, Roger Waters, Clapton.
Morrissey is one of the worst.
Morrissey blasts 'The Simpsons' for 'harshly hateful' and 'hypocritical' parody

Usually the best advice in this situation is to just ignore him, but with Morrissey that may not have the desired effect.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:38 pm**

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:51 pm**

I don't believe in optimism, but this has to mean guilty, right? There's no way they're even at a split and no way the guilty side would cave this quickly?

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:54 pm**

mister d wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:51 pm I don't believe in optimism, but this has to mean guilty, right? There's no way they're even at a split and no way the guilty side would cave this quickly?

I cant imagine a judge would let them do a hung jury after this little time. So it's either guilty or a long few days for America (and deservedly so).

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:55 pm**

mister d wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:51 pm I don't believe in optimism, but this has to mean guilty, right? There's no way they're even at a split and no way the guilty side would cave this quickly?

I also gave up on believing a group of random people will do the right thing, but I'm thinking a quick deliberation has to be a good sign. From what I saw and read, the prosecution was very good, and the defense's case was laughable. Hoping for the best here...

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:03 pm**

The Sybian wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:55 pm
mister d wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:51 pm I don't believe in optimism, but this has to mean guilty, right? There's no way they're even at a split and no way the guilty side would cave this quickly?
I also gave up on believing a group of random people will do the right thing, but I'm thinking a quick deliberation has to be a good sign. From what I saw and read, the prosecution was very good, and the defense's case was laughable. Hoping for the best here...

Yeah, law dogs can correct me but usually relatively quick deliberations is a good sign for the prosecution. In this case, perhaps more so.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:12 pm**

I'd like to be optimistic about this, but fucking white people.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:20 pm**

Another data point for a "good" outcome is that if he were being acquitted they would be a lot more likely to postpone the decision to tomorrow morning.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:55 pm**

DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:12 pm I'd like to be optimistic about this, but fucking white people.

Just waiting to find out if the country rightfully burns again tonight.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:56 pm**

brian wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:03 pm
The Sybian wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:55 pm
mister d wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:51 pm I don't believe in optimism, but this has to mean guilty, right? There's no way they're even at a split and no way the guilty side would cave this quickly?
I also gave up on believing a group of random people will do the right thing, but I'm thinking a quick deliberation has to be a good sign. From what I saw and read, the prosecution was very good, and the defense's case was laughable. Hoping for the best here...
Yeah, law dogs can correct me but usually relatively quick deliberations is a good sign for the prosecution. In this case, perhaps more so.

Hard to know in a criminal case.

In a civil case, if I am plaintiff, I tend to want the jury out longer rather than shorter.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:59 pm**

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:03 pm**

tennbengal wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:59 pm

I wouldn't be surprised to see some celebratory rioting in a couple cities if there is a conviction.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:05 pm**

The Sybian wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:03 pm
tennbengal wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:59 pm
I wouldn't be surprised to see some celebratory rioting in a couple cities if there is a conviction.

Things burn either way.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:07 pm**

I wouldn't be surprised if some celebrations were turned into riots. We've seen how these things go.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:07 pm**

The Sybian wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:03 pm
tennbengal wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:59 pm
I wouldn't be surprised to see some celebratory rioting in a couple cities if there is a conviction.

Will George Zimmerman be out and about tonight? Florida just gave him a clear path to play good guy with a car.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:08 pm**

Guilty on all counts

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:08 pm**

Rot in prison, fucker.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:19 pm**

I'm not even sure how to describe being both unsurprised and completely surprised at the same time.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:19 pm**

Thanks to that jury for doing their job.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:21 pm**

mister d wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:19 pm I'm not even sure how to describe being both unsurprised and completely surprised at the same time.

Excellent summary of where so many Americans are right now. Absolutely.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:31 pm**

Watershed moment. The jury really only had to watch the video on the first day.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:35 pm**

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:31 pm Watershed moment. The jury really only had to watch the video on the first day.

There's been situations like that before - but this video was so long that there really was no chance to take things out of context.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:38 pm**

The other officers testifying against him is what really sets this one apart. Yes, the Police Chief was important, but that's not what moves the needle with the rank and file officers -- You've all watched The Wire and know how much stock they put in "the brass" and their political proclivities.

Having fellow officers testify against him is HUGE. I won't say unprecedented, because I'm not a historian/researcher... But it is extremely uncommon. I'm hoping this is a game changer, but with the amount of LE that showed up on January 6... We have a loooooong way to go.

The Swamp

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