The Swamp

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:25 pm**

DaveInSeattle wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:59 pm
Joe K wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:52 am I think the emails are likely legit, based on their content and the response from the Biden campaign.
Funny, lots of people working at the Post thought they were bogus.

Again, if they are bogus why hasn’t Hunter Biden, the Biden Campaign, or anyone else copied on the emails come out and said as much? It’d be pretty easy to determine whether are not they are forgeries and wouldn’t you expect to see a prompt statement to that effect if they weren’t legit?

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:29 pm**

Joe K wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:25 pm
DaveInSeattle wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:59 pm
Joe K wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:52 am I think the emails are likely legit, based on their content and the response from the Biden campaign.
Funny, lots of people working at the Post thought they were bogus.

Again, if they are bogus why hasn’t Hunter Biden, the Biden Campaign, or anyone else copied on the emails come out and said as much? It’d be pretty easy to determine whether are not they are forgeries and wouldn’t you expect to see a prompt statement to that effect if they weren’t legit?

It's not up to Biden/Harris campaign to prove they are bogus, its up to Guiliani/Bannon/et al to prove they are legit.

And now you got Sen Johnson going on Fox saying there 'might' be child porn on the alleged hard drive. Are they supposed to give that legitimacy as well?

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:56 pm**

And sometimes it's better to ignore shit that is just meant to agitate.

By addressing the charges, Biden gives them credence.

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:01 pm**

Pruitt wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:56 pm By addressing the charges, Biden gives them credence.

Exactly. Until these stories come from a source with a bit more credibility then drunk Rudy and the NYPost, there's no way you give them any legitimacy.

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:57 pm**

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:20 am**

Massive Trump rallies in Newport Beach and Beverly Hills. I know Biden will win California, but I never thought I’d see that huge of a rally for Trump in Beverly Hills. Why I have a hard time believing Biden is up 12-17 nationally.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:28 am**

psunate77 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:20 am Massive Trump rallies in Newport Beach and Beverly Hills. I know Biden will win California, but I never thought I’d see that huge of a rally for Trump in Beverly Hills. Why I have a hard time believing Biden is up 12-17 nationally.

Trump got nearly 4 million votes in CA in 2016. I think TX and FL were the only ones to give him more.

(But no, Biden isn’t up 12-17. Is anyone claiming he is?)

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:29 am**

Pruitt wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:56 pmBy addressing the charges, Biden gives them credence.

It’s been hard to keep track while on the road ... what’s the actual charge supposed to be, based on the emails themselves?

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:48 am**

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:29 am
Pruitt wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:56 pmBy addressing the charges, Biden gives them credence.
It’s been hard to keep track while on the road ... what’s the actual charge supposed to be, based on the emails themselves?

No criminal charges, just alleged activities. Only harmful allegation I've seen, if true, is Hunter sold access to Joe. No evidence to back it, but Rudy claims Hunter gave Joe a 50% cut of the bribes. No allegations I've seen even remotely saying Joe did anything for the benefit of Burisma. The whole thing makes no sense. And there were pics of Hunter with a meth pipe in his mouth.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:49 am**

Why would the Biden give this any time of day? I know why Joe K is asking the question because he's secretly hoping for a Biden loss, but seriously. Everyone knows there is no reason to engage an obviously fake story.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:50 am**

The Sybian wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:48 am
Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:29 am
Pruitt wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:56 pmBy addressing the charges, Biden gives them credence.
It’s been hard to keep track while on the road ... what’s the actual charge supposed to be, based on the emails themselves?
No criminal charges, just alleged activities. Only harmful allegation I've seen, if true, is Hunter sold access to Joe. No evidence to back it, but Rudy claims Hunter gave Joe a 50% cut of the bribes. No allegations I've seen even remotely saying Joe did anything for the benefit of Burisma. The whole thing makes no sense. And there were pics of Hunter with a meth pipe in his mouth.

Do the emails or texts say anything about selling access, or Joe getting a cut? All I’d heard about was “thanks for setting up a meeting.”

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:59 am**

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:29 am
Pruitt wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:56 pmBy addressing the charges, Biden gives them credence.
It’s been hard to keep track while on the road ... what’s the actual charge supposed to be, based on the emails themselves?

There isn’t much “new” because already it’s long been well-established that Hunter Biden was making a lot of money from business dealings in Ukraine and China while his father was VP. But there are emails that reference a Ukrainian businessman meeting Joe (Joe previously pled ignorance about what Hunter was doing) and an e-mail talking about a Chinese business deal where the “big guy” got a cut of the profits. Right-wing media has jumped on that to suggest that it’s referring to Joe Biden but that’s not clear at all. My understanding is that it’s a somewhat common turn of phrase in Chinese business parlance to say something like “big guy” or “big boss” to refer to a business executive.

Also, take this as you will but there are some media outlets that have spoken to the Delaware repair shop owner and he supported the Post’s account. And Fox News claims to have spoken with someone else on the China email and confirmed it’s legit.

Honestly none of this is an earth-shattering scandal or anything but Facebook and Twitter censoring the NYPost article is a big deal considering the broader implications. They obviously don’t have a consistent policy against publishing based on illicitly obtained materials (see: Trump tax returns, Snowden, Panama Papers, etc.) and have also let a whole bunch of articles pushing thinly sourced and since disproven Russia-related conspiracies run without limitations.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:07 am**

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:28 am
psunate77 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:20 am Massive Trump rallies in Newport Beach and Beverly Hills. I know Biden will win California, but I never thought I’d see that huge of a rally for Trump in Beverly Hills. Why I have a hard time believing Biden is up 12-17 nationally.
Trump got nearly 4 million votes in CA in 2016. I think TX and FL were the only ones to give him more.

(But no, Biden isn’t up 12-17. Is anyone claiming he is?)

Dornslife I think has Biden up by +12, 538 has Biden up 10.5 with a 88% chance of winning.. Biden did send an email out late last week that the polls were very tights and ignore the national polls. Not sure if they did that cause they are scared people would back off and not vote or if it's true. I do know what I see if Trump with huge amounts of people no matter where he goes. He could go to Mass and pull in thousands. I think that is alarming.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:20 am**

psunate77 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:07 am
Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:28 am
psunate77 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:20 am Massive Trump rallies in Newport Beach and Beverly Hills. I know Biden will win California, but I never thought I’d see that huge of a rally for Trump in Beverly Hills. Why I have a hard time believing Biden is up 12-17 nationally.
Trump got nearly 4 million votes in CA in 2016. I think TX and FL were the only ones to give him more.

(But no, Biden isn’t up 12-17. Is anyone claiming he is?)
Dornslife I think has Biden up by +12, 538 has Biden up 10.5 with a 88% chance of winning.. Biden did send an email out late last week that the polls were very tights and ignore the national polls. Not sure if they did that cause they are scared people would back off and not vote or if it's true. I do know what I see if Trump with huge amounts of people no matter where he goes. He could go to Mass and pull in thousands. I think that is alarming.

Win or lose, Trump is going to get at least 65 million votes. So a b
ten thousand people showing up for him somewhere shouldn’t be alarming.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:23 am**

Joe K wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:59 am
Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:29 am
Pruitt wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:56 pmBy addressing the charges, Biden gives them credence.
It’s been hard to keep track while on the road ... what’s the actual charge supposed to be, based on the emails themselves?
There isn’t much “new” because already it’s long been well-established that Hunter Biden was making a lot of money from business dealings in Ukraine and China while his father was VP. But there are emails that reference a Ukrainian businessman meeting Joe (Joe previously pled ignorance about what Hunter was doing) and an e-mail talking about a Chinese business deal where the “big guy” got a cut of the profits. Right-wing media has jumped on that to suggest that it’s referring to Joe Biden but that’s not clear at all. My understanding is that it’s a somewhat common turn of phrase in Chinese business parlance to say something like “big guy” or “big boss” to refer to a business executive.

Also, take this as you will but there are some media outlets that have spoken to the Delaware repair shop owner and he supported the Post’s account. And Fox News claims to have spoken with someone else on the China email and confirmed it’s legit.

Honestly none of this is an earth-shattering scandal or anything but Facebook and Twitter censoring the NYPost article is a big deal considering the broader implications. They obviously don’t have a consistent policy against publishing based on illicitly obtained materials (see: Trump tax returns, Snowden, Panama Papers, etc.) and have also let a whole bunch of articles pushing thinly sourced and since disproven Russia-related conspiracies run without limitations.

Wasn’t there a picture months ago showing Biden and Hunter and a Ukrainian businessman / Burisma guy golfing? On the Burisma part of the story, is anything in the emails significantly different from that?

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:23 am**

psunate77 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:07 amI do know what I see if Trump with huge amounts of people no matter where he goes. He could go to Mass and pull in thousands. I think that is alarming.

The Providence College men's basketball team could host UMass and draw thousands.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:33 am**

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:23 am
Joe K wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:59 am
Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:29 am
Pruitt wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:56 pmBy addressing the charges, Biden gives them credence.
It’s been hard to keep track while on the road ... what’s the actual charge supposed to be, based on the emails themselves?
There isn’t much “new” because already it’s long been well-established that Hunter Biden was making a lot of money from business dealings in Ukraine and China while his father was VP. But there are emails that reference a Ukrainian businessman meeting Joe (Joe previously pled ignorance about what Hunter was doing) and an e-mail talking about a Chinese business deal where the “big guy” got a cut of the profits. Right-wing media has jumped on that to suggest that it’s referring to Joe Biden but that’s not clear at all. My understanding is that it’s a somewhat common turn of phrase in Chinese business parlance to say something like “big guy” or “big boss” to refer to a business executive.

Also, take this as you will but there are some media outlets that have spoken to the Delaware repair shop owner and he supported the Post’s account. And Fox News claims to have spoken with someone else on the China email and confirmed it’s legit.

Honestly none of this is an earth-shattering scandal or anything but Facebook and Twitter censoring the NYPost article is a big deal considering the broader implications. They obviously don’t have a consistent policy against publishing based on illicitly obtained materials (see: Trump tax returns, Snowden, Panama Papers, etc.) and have also let a whole bunch of articles pushing thinly sourced and since disproven Russia-related conspiracies run without limitations.
Wasn’t there a picture months ago showing Biden and Hunter and a Ukrainian businessman / Burisma guy golfing? On the Burisma part of the story, is anything in the emails significantly different from that?

There was that golfing photo. I don't know if the potential meeting referenced in these emails is with the same Ukrainian guy or someone different and/or more powerful. Either way, I don't see it mattering much to people. IMO the only thing that would actually make a measurable impact on the election would be if there were evidence of Joe personally profiting off of these deals, but there doesn't seem to be any (and I highly doubt he's stupid enough to have done that).

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:00 am**

Joe K wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:25 pm
Again, if they are bogus why hasn’t Hunter Biden, the Biden Campaign, or anyone else copied on the emails come out and said as much? It’d be pretty easy to determine whether are not they are forgeries and wouldn’t you expect to see a prompt statement to that effect if they weren’t legit?

Not sure if you'll take the word of someone that works in PR, but a basic tenet of the business is that you don't VALIDATE BULLSHIT BY RESPONDING TO IT.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:08 am**

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:00 am
Joe K wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:25 pm
Again, if they are bogus why hasn’t Hunter Biden, the Biden Campaign, or anyone else copied on the emails come out and said as much? It’d be pretty easy to determine whether are not they are forgeries and wouldn’t you expect to see a prompt statement to that effect if they weren’t legit?
Not sure if you'll take the word of someone that works in PR, but a basic tenet of the business is that you don't VALIDATE BULLSHIT BY RESPONDING TO IT.

Cat’s out of the bag on that strategy now that the entire right-wing media machine is talking about this story. And don’t you think Trump himself will mention it in the upcoming debate (that hasn’t been cancelled, right)?

ETA: Not just the right-wing media anymore. The current Director of National Intelligence has now come out and said that the FBI has the laptop and that there’s no evidence that this is a Russian disinformation campaign. He’s a right-winger for sure, but we’re past the “don’t validate a fringe rumor” stage IMO.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:23 am**

JoeK , come the fuck on. Are you steve bannon?

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:24 am**

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:28 am
psunate77 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:20 am Massive Trump rallies in Newport Beach and Beverly Hills. I know Biden will win California, but I never thought I’d see that huge of a rally for Trump in Beverly Hills. Why I have a hard time believing Biden is up 12-17 nationally.
Trump got nearly 4 million votes in CA in 2016. I think TX and FL were the only ones to give him more.

(But no, Biden isn’t up 12-17. Is anyone claiming he is?)

PRRI which is a A/B poll has Biden +18.. That is pretty impossible IMO.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:26 am**

Joe K wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:08 am
Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:00 am
Joe K wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:25 pm
Again, if they are bogus why hasn’t Hunter Biden, the Biden Campaign, or anyone else copied on the emails come out and said as much? It’d be pretty easy to determine whether are not they are forgeries and wouldn’t you expect to see a prompt statement to that effect if they weren’t legit?
Not sure if you'll take the word of someone that works in PR, but a basic tenet of the business is that you don't VALIDATE BULLSHIT BY RESPONDING TO IT.
Cat’s out of the bag on that strategy now that the entire right-wing media machine is talking about this story. And don’t you think Trump himself will mention it in the upcoming debate (that hasn’t been cancelled, right)?

ETA: Not just the right-wing media anymore. The current Director of National Intelligence has now come out and said that the FBI has the laptop and that there’s no evidence that this is a Russian disinformation campaign. He’s a right-winger for sure, but we’re past the “don’t validate a fringe rumor” stage IMO.

The story doesn't see to have any traction outside the core base, so I wouldn't validate it with a response. Absolutely any response will get twisted into a further scandal. The way they can twist QAnon's predictions that don't come true into some different meaning shows there is no limit to the leaps they will make to convince themselves. Nothing they say will change the narrative, it'll just keep in in the news longer. Besides, just wait a day and Trump will step on the story with a new scandal of his own.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:38 am**

tennbengal wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:23 am JoeK , come the fuck on. Are you steve bannon?

Yes, I must be Steve Bannon for having the audacity to think that emails are real, even if illicitly obtained, where not a single person copied on said emails has come forward to deny their authenticity.

I’ve repeatedly said that Giuliani may have done unethical things to obtain the documents and that I don’t think they’re a political game changer.

That doesn’t mean the documents are forgeries.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:50 am**

Joe K wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:38 am
tennbengal wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:23 am JoeK , come the fuck on. Are you steve bannon?
Yes, I must be Steve Bannon for having the audacity to think that emails are real, even if illicitly obtained, where not a single person copied on said emails has come forward to deny their authenticity.

I’ve repeatedly said that Giuliani may have done unethical things to obtain the documents and that I don’t think they’re a political game changer.

That doesn’t mean the documents are forgeries.

Dammit, my whole response evaporated.

I don’t think it’s simply about whether the docs are forgeries. It’s also that they are unimportant. The Post story puts the emails in the context of Biden efforts to stop the Ukrainian prosecutor from investigating Burisma. That’s all bullshit.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:00 am**

Again, why would anyone from the Biden campaign even discuss the possibility of addressing this obviously manufactured story written by a Hannity producer with only Bannon and Giuliani as sources.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:21 am**

Giff wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:00 am Again, why would anyone from the Biden campaign even discuss the possibility of addressing this obviously manufactured story written by a Hannity producer with only Bannon and Giuliani as sources.

They shouldn't and they wont.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:24 am**

Giff wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:00 am Again, why would anyone from the Biden campaign even discuss the possibility of addressing this obviously manufactured story written by a Hannity producer with only Bannon and Giuliani as sources.

No clue.

It’s what they want - they want air for the bullshit to make it somehow legit. It’s the news version of money laundering.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:30 am**

The Sybian wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:26 am The way they can twist QAnon's predictions that don't come true into some different meaning shows there is no limit to the leaps they will make to convince themselves.

Wait...you mean JFK Jr ***DIDN't*** come back from the dead this weekend and replace Mike Pence on the GOP ticket?

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:48 am**

Much of the right has 1 core platform: and that's owning the libz. You can't reason with them, there will always be something made into a scandal, and the only thing you can do is burn it to the ground (metaphorically, with votes).

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:50 am**

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:53 am**

While we moved out of LA seven years ago, I fall back on this regarding Trump rallies in Huntington Beach and Beverly Hills.

1. Huntington Beach is in Orange County, sometimes called the Orange Curtain due to its more conservative leanings. It's not really LA at all.

2. Looking at some photos of that "rally" in Beverly Hills, there is zero to be impressed/concerned about. I've seen much bigger crowds than the hundreds of people for art festivals in the same location (I used to walk by there to go to the library). Here's why the rallies are on Sunday (they're allegedly having one every week until the election): free parking two blocks away in the city garage for city hall/library/several other public offices that are all closed on Sundays.

Yawn.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:30 pm**

Gunpowder wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:48 am Much of the right has 1 core platform: and that's owning the libz. You can't reason with them, there will always be something made into a scandal, and the only thing you can do is burn it to the ground (metaphorically, with votes).

Exactly.

Apologies to whoever posted this sentiment so well awhile back on this board, but I have been explaining this to a lot of my friends and family over the last few months.

Don't waste your energy on engaging with their bullshit. It just drags you into their muck. This goes for Facebook exchanges, along with running a presidential campaign.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:35 pm**

BTW, regarding polling, this is a bullet from WaPos election roundup today:

Biden leads Trump by 11 percentage points nationally, 54 percent to 43 percent, according to an average of national polls since Oct. 4. Biden’s margin is smaller in key states: eight points in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan; seven in Arizona; and six in Florida.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:42 pm**

Gunpowder wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:48 am Much of the right has 1 core platform: and that's owning the libz. You can't reason with them, there will always be something made into a scandal, and the only thing you can do is burn it to the ground (metaphorically, with votes).

The whole vibe is like the angry losers in high school.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:58 pm**

Pruitt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:42 pm
Gunpowder wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:48 am Much of the right has 1 core platform: and that's owning the libz. You can't reason with them, there will always be something made into a scandal, and the only thing you can do is burn it to the ground (metaphorically, with votes).
The whole vibe is like the angry losers in high school.

Actually, the vibe I get are the dumb jocks who had trouble putting together a term paper, but somehow think they're the smartest, most clever dude in the room. Guys that mostly went on to make a lot of money in some form of sales, and because they are relatively well off, they (again) think they are smart and clever. The type of guys that stuffed "nerds" in their lockers and were generally horrible people, but thought everyone loved them because they were in their bubble.

This is, of course, colored by knowing who of my high school classmates are now Trump supporters and it's almost 100 percent. Plus the adults I know from the 'hood and their friend circles. The types of morons that think changing a politicians name is the highest form of comedy and the extent of their ability to analyze politics.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:04 pm**

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:35 pm BTW, regarding polling, this is a bullet from WaPos election roundup today:

Biden leads Trump by 11 percentage points nationally, 54 percent to 43 percent, according to an average of national polls since Oct. 4. Biden’s margin is smaller in key states: eight points in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan; seven in Arizona; and six in Florida.

Trump needs to win three of those states? Is it enough if he just wins PA and FL out of those?

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:10 pm**

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:04 pm
Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:35 pm BTW, regarding polling, this is a bullet from WaPos election roundup today:

Biden leads Trump by 11 percentage points nationally, 54 percent to 43 percent, according to an average of national polls since Oct. 4. Biden’s margin is smaller in key states: eight points in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan; seven in Arizona; and six in Florida.

Trump needs to win three of those states? Is it enough if he just wins PA and FL out of those?

Not if he loses AZ I don't think. Run it out at 270towin.com

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:12 pm**

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:29 pm**

Polls are small sample size, I think Trump will win Pa and Michigan.. Michigan seems like people there are tired of the Dem Governor, and I live in Pa and the Western and Central part of the state are pretty much all Trump. He won huge in 2016. I do believe Allegheny County where Pittsburgh is was for Clinton, but it was pretty close. Philly area maybe where Biden gets his votes as I don't go out there much.

I am worried about Florida. They have Repubs in line to cheat just like 2000. Ohio also will probably go to Trump.

Biden may get Texas, Beto O' Rourke has been doing work for Joe in Texas. I still don't see it going blue until it gets a Dem Governor.

Wisky, Minny will be Biden's.. Iowa may also be Biden's, especially with the way Greenfield is polling against Ernst.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:35 pm**

I don't think Trump is winning Michigan. Polls there have consistently been Biden +8 to +10 and some of the issues that led to Trump winning Michigan (lower turnout amongst African-Americans, Trump's unknown level of moderation with GOP dogma, etc.) won't be issues this time around.

Trust me, there's plenty of racists and misogynists in Michigan, but there's a lot of people in west Michigan who voted for Trump in 2016 who will be voting for Biden or third-party (call them Amash Republicans).

I wouldn't be surprised to see Biden win Kent County (Grand Rapids) where Trump beat Clinton by 10,000 votes. Flip 10,000 votes in Kent County alone from 2016 and Clinton would have won Michigan.

The Swamp

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