War on Abortion

[howard]

another victory, only hours away unless filibuster succeeds.

Texas House passes sweeping abortion restrictions

The Texas government cares not for the privacy of a woman and her relationships with 1) her own body; 2) her physician. Yeah, I'm biased because I served on the front lines of this war (and I take liberties with analogies to real war because my side has suffered real, concrete casualties--I know this is totally different, I'm just using words here), but the lack of national conversation on this abomination is disturbingly typical (or typically disturbing). Yeah, this country fucking sucks. I wonder which will land me in jail first, talking shit against the government or performing an abortion. Maybe talking shit about anti-abortion fascist fuckwads.

[rass]

Texas believes in the sanctity of life!

500 is scheduled for tomorrow.

[Pruitt]

Days like this make are tailor made for a Canadian who likes to feel superior.

I live in a city that has abortion on demand, gay marriage, socialized medicine, no death penalty, and not a single successful politician who has ever flaunted his or her own personal religious beliefs...

And strangely, the fabric of our peaceful middle-class society has not yet frayed. I realize that there are constituencies in parts of the States where the word "Canada" is held up as a kind of threat - death panels and the like - but stories like this just boggle the mind.

And as a bonus Canadian boast - the Premiers of our four largest provinces are all women (and one is a lesbian). The abortion debate is not getting reopened anytime soon.

[The Sybian]

Texas believes in the sanctity of life!

500 is scheduled for tomorrow.

Holy crap, 45% of the executions in Texas were white people? That is approximately 225 white people executed in Texas since 1976. I thought they were just killing colored people, we gotta do something!

[howard]

Got a chance to walk it like I talk it today. Got a phone call from an old colleague, she now runs an abortion clinic. Due to a schedule screwup, she needed an anesthesiologist at the last minute; I only had two cases this morning and I had just finished. Cruised up to the Bronx, and terminated a bunchload of pregnancies, painlessly. Ah, freedom of choice and self-determination over your own body, until the fascist fuckwads take it away, as the equally fuckwad liberal douchebags won't stand up to prevent this bullshit.

Felt good to be back in the freedom saddle again.

[rass]

Filibusterin'!

[P.D.X.]

She can't pee for 13 hours? That's just crazy.

[Johnnie]

Wendy Davis is doing the Lord's work.

[howard]

She can't pee for 13 hours? That's just crazy.

No pee, no lean.

[The Sybian]

She can't pee for 13 hours? That's just crazy.

You can pee, you just can't leave the floor. Depends are doing the Lord's work. The urban legend is that Strom Thurmond soaked in a hot tub (or maybe sauna?) to dehydrate himself before an epic filibuster.

[Scottie]

And as a bonus Canadian boast - the Premiers of our four largest provinces are all women (and one is a lesbian).

Newfoundland, too.

Kind of surprising that Canada has never elected a woman as Prime Minister, (stress "never elected"), and there is absolutely zero on the horizon. Maybe if Redford succeeds Harper.

[rass]

An unruly mob, using Occupy Wall Street tactics, disrupted the Senate from protecting unborn babies

[DaveInSeattle]

An unruly mob, using Occupy Wall Street tactics, disrupted the Senate from protecting unborn babies

I guess falsifying official records in defense of unborn babies is fair game.

Initially, Republicans insisted they had started voting before the midnight deadline and passed the bill that Democrats spent much of Tuesday filibustering. But after official computer records and printouts of the voting record showed the vote took place on Wednesday, and then were changed to read Tuesday, senators convened for a private meeting.

[howard]

WTF are 'occupy wall tactics'? Exercising the rights enumerated in the First Amendment? How sinister!

The fucking arrogance that they dare object to the interference of the public in their dishonest, illegal manipulations to force through a law restricting the freedom of the public. My goodness gracious.

[DaveInSeattle]

WTF are 'occupy wall tactics'?

Drum circles....fucking drum circles...

[Giff]

Been a while since I could say this, but pretty proud of what happened in Austin last night. It'll be a short-lived victory, I'm sure, but hey, I ain't got much.

[howard]

WTF are 'occupy wall tactics'?

Drum circles....fucking drum circles...

(that was fucking funny)

[SportsDoc]

I am Pro-life. I don't think I'm a fuckwad, but maybe I am.

I do not believe, EVER, that the end justifies the means. The means (or the acts) must in all cases stand on their own merits, if they do not they are reprehensible, and punishable as to the act.

There are fuckwads on both sides of this issue. There are good people on both sides of this issue.

I do not think Howard is a fuckwad for believing differently than me, and working in the abortion field on occasion. From everything I know about Howard, he is a good man and a good physician. I do not think any of you who support a women's right to choose is a fuckwad because of that belief.

In the 60's and 70's when this issue became a political/legal issue in the U.S. the science was much different than today. Back then a fetus could not survive outside the womb until it was quite mature. Today, that same fetus can survive outside the womb at a much earlier point in the pregnancy. I suspect in 30 years it will be different than it is today.

So the question each person has to ask is when is a fetus a human being? And if you believe it isn't until birth, then your core belief, if it is pro-choice is in tact. If you believe it is at conception, then your core belief of pro-life is in tact. What if you believe that a fetus is a human at the point it can survive outside the womb? Ah, the gray area, and a belief that is constantly in flux with the advances of science. Different today than when Roe v. Wade happened and different 30 years from now than today.

This is such a difficult issue, and it is polarizing, and it has easy villains on both sides to help make your case seem the better one, either way.

I just submit we disagree on this subject, and I don't think differently of you if you disagree with me. I only hope for the same back.

Peace, SportsDoc

[howard]

Doc:

I'll be brief.

The fuckwad label spews from me, applied to those who will impose their 'belief' upon me. Especially by force of law, government, and criminal punishment.

As long as consideration of a fetus as equal to a born breathing human being is a 'belief', this is my problem.

This is no where near as black and white as those two sentences. What is a person is not a matter of fact, nor consensus in Western society, much less in the USA. Hence the ambiguity in Christian and Jewish scriptures, wrt 'quickening' and so forth.

But this is my problem. Fact; the nature of this particular fact (personhood of a fetus), and how to handle the lack of provability or of establishment of consensus on this fact.

It is easier rhetorically when people misuse the word 'belief' to dismiss them, and I do not intend that here. I would suggest (and please correct me if I am wrong, and if you choose to engage a back-and-forth; full respect if you choose to abstain), that indeed you consider personhood of a fetus to be a fact.

I do not. (I'll spare you my argument/proof.)

Further, this 'fact' is real difficult to prove or to build a consensus around. But, that is beside the point; resolution of such ambiguity by government, instead of the conscience of the individual, and the actions of the individual in the context of a relationship with a physician, is unacceptable to me. We as a society have failed to resolve fact from ambiguity from belief; hence, government, stay the fuck away.

For you and people who are invested in the fact of personhood of a fetus, abortion is a horror. I do not take this lightly. I assume that the obvious truth that a black man is a man, understood by someone in 1850s America, in the face of slavery is analogous to the truth as seen by pro-life people looking at the face of a million abortions annually in the USA today. I do my best to appreciate this circumstance (and I am sure I fall short).

I think the analogy to historic institutions and events that rest upon the fact of non-personhood of human beings is useful, as those incidents led to mass murder and other horrors. I think such analogies help me understand my pro-life friends and fellow citizens. Your fact/belief/whatever leads inevitably toward action to stop a horror, no less a horror than slavery or genocide.

My 'fuckwads' is not for people who think differently than me; really and truly.

It is difficult enough to enjoy freedoms without other peoples' 'facts', or beliefs masquerading as fact, being imposed upon me. But I sure understand how so many people find action, political and otherwise, to be imperative, just as it was imperative for abolitionists.

And, I must beg understanding for my bias on this issue, which stems from the murders and maimings of people, some of whom I've known personally, which was unambiguously violence against beings with personhood. My bias----sensitivity and tossing around 'fuckwads'.

For those who think I am a murderer for performing abortions, and those who will put me in prison for performing abortions, yes I understand why they reach that conclusion. I am not gonna accept their behavior--not even the putting me in prison part. Unless and until we as a society reach an agreement on facts and a consensus on conduct. A 51% majority, or a bunch of fuckwad politicians imposing their belief system upon large numbers don't count.

This is tough. Real tough. The line that is where imposition of belief upon others, is badly blurred on this issue, and clarity is impossible when it comes to this conflict between personal decision/obvious truth.

Fuckwad is for the politicians and the dogmatists who do what they do. Particularly the politicians acting badly in Texas. Not for the millions of people who disagree with me, but will not put me in prison for the disagreement.

Dude, thank you for taking the time and effort to post on this. This shit is not easy.

[Shirley]

In the 60's and 70's when this issue became a political/legal issue in the U.S. the science was much different than today. Back then a fetus could not survive outside the womb until it was quite mature. Today, that same fetus can survive outside the womb at a much earlier point in the pregnancy. I suspect in 30 years it will be different than it is today.

In 30 years, we may be able to grow entire people from pretty much any cell with DNA data. We can already do that with certain stem cells (although nobody tries with people). So where do you draw the line if you're going to use that scientific barrier?

The only reasonable answer is that you can't really draw a line at the "viable" point if you are going to allow advances in science, technology and medicine to constantly move that line. Otherwise you're eventually left with murder every time I spit on the sidewalk - millions of little Daves killed before they grew - all they needed was a little spark to start splitting and growing.

I think instead you have to first consider that women should have the right to NOT carry through a pregnancy that they don't want. They deserve some say in what their body does.

Then, second, pick a reasonable end point. I don't think anyone thinks women should abort at 38 weeks. In my mind, what's fair is to pick a line where a baby could survive outside the womb without having to live in an incubator or require any other major medical assistance. I think that line is somewhere around the beginning of the third trimester - or maybe around 30 weeks.

[SportsDoc]

Howard and Shirley:

First, Howard, I was not offended by your use of the word fuckwad. I knew for whom it was meant, and was pretty sure that wasn't me! You don't have to extrapolate on that. Second, I do not consider those who practice safe, legal abortions murderers.

This is a very difficult dilemma. My own personal position has actually been quite fluid over my lifetime, so, far be it for me to tell someone else where to stand on the issue. In college I was very Pro-choice. How does one not allow a female who has been raped or suffered incest the option to terminate that unwanted pregnancy?

Shirley: Exactly! As science evolves where will the ethics of human reproduction go? From the womb to the test tube? Very possibly. In many fields of science, not just reproduction, the future will have to include the ethics of the science. It is going to get dicey, I suspect, and we will be faced with other moral dilemmas besides this one.

For me, to feel comfortable with myself and who I am, and, yes, what I believe religiously as a Christian, I oppose abortion. I am also open to that current belief continuing to be fluid as my own self continues to evolve over the rest of my life. Could it go back to being more Pro-choice? Maybe, but doubtful, but I'll leave all doors open.

People, on either side, who use violence or intimidation towards those who don't believe as they do I cannot and will not tolerate. But, again, there are very good people on both sides of this issue, too. Let's not put everyone in the same camp as the wackos on the "other" side, just to make "our" side seem more righteous.

[Scottie]

Doctor fight!

My two cents? Complete indifference. Over my lifetime I've driven four different women to abortion clinics to undo what I did to them. That's not bragging, oh, no way. Let's just say everyone was the better for it. The world doesn't need little Scotties running around.

Y'know, I always felt men shouldn't really have a say in the matter. As far as I've always been concerned this is a women's issue and up to them to settle. Completely up to them. Figure it out, bitches. (Many women are prone to screeching about inequality and lack of power; why not completely hand this off to them? Here you go. Your realm. Entirely. Have fun.)

Whenever religion dominates one side of an argument, inevitably I'll end up on the other side. Even if it is something I do not give a damn about, the deity angle is a lose move, every time. I respect Christianity; I just don't want it determining anything; life, death or thought. I respect Shakespeare a lot, too, but I don't prance around soliloquising.

Some very eloquent statements in this unsolvable debate. And SportsDoc deserves some applause.

[Pruitt]

It always amazes me that in a nation founded on the principles of individual freedoms, so many people feel that they have a right to impose their ideals on others.

"Choice" is the key word.

[degenerasian]

Might be a bit off-topic

It's not even a religious thing Scottie, in Chinese culture(from my Han upbringing) men control everything. And they aren't religious, over 80% follow some sort of Taoism/Confuious/Buddhism. This is a culture where a woman just looking at a man is frowned upon let alone sex and abortion. Hong Kong (where I believe your wife is from) is probably the exception with western rule and Christianity. I'd still be curious of your wife's views as a Chinese.

I have a cousin in Vietnam who was pregnant at 16. The boyfriend ran away, no responsibility, no child support laws over there. He just runs away free. She decides to have the baby but then baby is then registered as her parents kids. Yes, legally this kid is now her little brother. The idea was so that she can continue a free life and marry on day unattached. No man in Asia would ever marry a women with a child. But really who are they fooling, you can tell from a women's body if they had a child or not. If the woman's had an abortion, you can't tell as easily. The boy is now 10, she hasn't had a sniff of a bf.. people talk, word gets out, everyone knows she's damaged. Her mom now tells my mom, they should have aborted the child, she might have been available' again. Korea and China leads the world in abortions despite abortion being illegal in both countries. It just goes underground. No religious reasons, they have abortions to make the women 'whole' again.


Asia unfortunately isn't like North America where women who divorce and/or have kids and remarry. It's is taboo there.
Of course men can remarry, they can even have mistresses, in fact it's a symbol of wealth and power. In the muslim world in West Asia it is a religious thing but in East Asia (the Orient) is it not religious. It's is an ideology from smart thinking people. Which is even worse. At least with religion, you can use the blind religion excuse and people follow God's words blah blah. What's the excuse here?


When I was younger in University and started to date seriously, my mom would ask, is she a virgin. If she's not, she's dirty. I've never cared about that, she still does.

[The Sybian]

I respect Shakespeare a lot, too, but I don't prance around soliloquising.

My entire image of Scottie is blown apart.

Sportsdoc, thanks for your thoughts. As always, it is nice and rare to hear a respectful and intelligent opposition view on the internet. Incredibly rare, and this includes fuckwads on the left writing on Conservative boards. While I respect your opinion on abortion and I think it is reasonable, do you believe it should be imposed on others by making abortions illegal, or more realistically allowing individual states to pass laws severely restricting abortions?

I have a similar take as Howard here, in that it is perfectly fine if your religion leads you to believe that abortion is wrong. I get it, and respect it. I just don't think it is ever acceptable in the US to codify a religious belief and impose it on others. [I do realize your opinion is not solely governed by your religion, just thinking out loud here]. And I do get that there is validity to the protecting the unborn child. I just don't like imposing one opinion or belief on others. If a person is against abortions, don't get one, but don't prevent others from freely living their lives because you believe it is wrong. In the same vein, I strongly support gay marriage, but I would be outraged if the government ever tried to force a church to perform or recognize gay marriages.

I think abortion is a horrible thing, but I've always supported a woman's right to choose while always believing that I could never support a gf going through with it. Until it happened. It was a horrible thing, but I never doubted it was the right decision for us. I also never felt that we killed a baby, but terminated the potential for a baby. Which I also believe we did every time I wore a condom or was with a girl using birth control pills.

[Scottie]

My entire image of Scottie is blown apart.

Okay, well, I do prance around soliloquising.

Dammit.

[Scottie]

It's not even a religious thing Scottie, in Chinese culture(from my Han upbringing) men control everything. And they aren't religious, over 80% follow some sort of Taoism/Confuious/Buddhism. This is a culture where a woman just looking at a man is frowned upon let alone sex and abortion. Hong Kong (where I believe your wife is from) is probably the exception with western rule and Christianity. I'd still be curious of your wife's views as a Chinese.

She's an atheist. Even more than I am. And I'm a Christopher Hitchens level atheist. Well, beyond that since I lack Hitchens' eloquence in expressing my thorough disbelief. Whenever the subject of religion arises, my wife dismisses it instantaneously. Completely uninterested. She has absolutely no time for anything but reality. G-d, to her, is just a nuisance at which she sees other people wasting their brains.

Couple of things, degen. I've lived in Asia for long stretches. I get it. A generation or two ago there was an instillment of civility. Girls didn't fuck boyfriends. Everything was hushhush and Asian girls (always in pairs, if you didn't have a best friend forever, you weren't doing it right) were a self-enclosed secret society of two. That doesn't exist anymore, much. Look at all the K-Pop videos you post. That alone should tell you how much the culture has changed.

I'm not sure where you are coming from when you say "they" aren't religious and then immediately follow that with "80% follow".

The first time I lived in Korea, and the first time I lived in China, it was not unusual to meet women that were thirty-forty year old virgins. Very typical. Now? Forget it. There is a huge social current in South Korea and China (and presumably Japan) now where the respect for elders has disappeared. And this is a culture where respecting seniors was not merely necessary but demanded, Confucian, unquestioned and rock solid, civil; the very bricks of culture. All gone. All lost. Arrogance of youth overwhelmed it. The first time I lived in Korea, and the first time I lived in China, girls would blush at even writing the name of the boy they had a crush on. Now? They fuck them and consider themselves entitled, powerful.

I'm an atheist. The only religion that has ever had any merit, in my idiotic opinion, is Bhuddism. Only because it has some self-gravity to it, where the goal is to completely mellow out and not fuck with anyone and have nobody fuck with you and can't we all just get along? But it's as ridiculous as yoga. Really. Bhuddism is a "new age" rubbish that doesn't seem to have an expiry date. Great temples, though. But let's face it. It's all full of shit. Ohhhhming in front of a bronzed or stoned fat slob? C'mon. Bhuddism is the elevator music of religions. I experimented with Judaism for years, too, mostly because they are solid good people. Their existence is the politics of existence, not G-odly. If I had to be born into a religion, yes, Jewish, hands down. Atheist Scottish seems less useful. The only religion I've ever really delved into is AA. And y'know? There's no denied reality in AA. That's not an accident.

[degenerasian]

I was coming from that 80% follow that which is more of a teaching than a religion. There is no weekly worship or a god to worship too. It's just a set of teachings.

The society is not as open as you think. Yes girls fuck their boyfriends more now and feel entitled but really they are not. Men will of course fuck around but when it comes to the important thing, marriage, they still want the perfect one. In the grand scheme of things girls who don't are still more valued than girls who have. Many girls discover this the hard way when guy #1 dumps them and there is no guy #2. Sure there are guys to fuck but by 27 girls want to get married, there is no one.

I guess my original point was that abortion is illegal in these countries. Not because of religion but because of stigma? The rate in Korea of Childbirth to abortion is 55-45. In 2011 450000 kids were born and 350000 fetus' aborted. That's astonishing.

It makes no sense over there. Telling women they have to give birth no matter what without also changing the perceptions about single mothers being damaged goods or providing more support for them doesn’t make any sense does it? No woman wants to have an abortion of course. I'm sure there's pressure, pain and guilt. Yes it is illegal but they do it because society pressures them to do it. The mom probably won't remarry and the born child will be ridiculed for not having a dad.

Abortion becomes the solution to hide the past.

I'm sure it's even a burden for doctors over there. It's just a quick dollar. They themselves lose respect for these women, unlike Howard who strongly believes in the cause.

[brian]

While you may respect his opinion nowhere did I see SportsDoc indicate that he thinks some/any abortions should be legal. Which means it sounds like he IS in favor of imposing his religious and moral principles on the majority of Americans who support legal and safe access to abortions.

[howard]

Sports Doc~

Thanks for your thoughtful posts, and for sharing you personal, deeply held beliefs and thoughts.

Y'know, I always felt men shouldn't really have a say in the matter.

This. Long before I had figured out my own stand on the issue, this was my stand on the issue.

SportsDoc deserves some applause.

This too.

[Scottie]

I was coming from that 80% follow that which is more of a teaching than a religion. There is no weekly worship or a god to worship too. It's just a set of teachings.

The society is not as open as you think.

I really don't get that at all. And I'm not antagonizing you, dear friend, I simply have had a different experience and that is not in the least what I saw. Quite the opposite. But the very symbol of Zen is two opposites existing in the same place simultaneously. So, maybe that's where we are?

Abortion becomes the solution to hide the past.

Yeah. I call that "Russian Birth Control".

[SportsDoc]

From the Syb: "While I respect your opinion on abortion and I think it is reasonable, do you believe it should be imposed on others by making abortions illegal, or more realistically allowing individual states to pass laws severely restricting abortions? "

No I don't, actually. And, in the end, I'd rather have legal abortions than going back to coat hangars in alleys. The state's rights issue is beyond me, and more about politics, so I don't have an answer there.

Another point I'd like to reinforce: While I do have strong religious beliefs, my stance on abortion is also very much a scientific one. As I said yesterday, it becomes a slippery slope when we try to determine just when a fetus is a person. And, it is a sliding scale as science advances. There's ethics to that science, too. And yet, Howard and many scientifically trained and honorable people feel differently. So, this is quite obviously not a black/white issue. There are myriad shades of gray involved. My shade is not your shade, nor is either shade necessarily fully correct.

I even go back to Scottie saying why should men have a say in what women choose to do with their bodies? Again, a reasonable question, with moral and ethical implications as well as the physical and emotional.

It is just a difficult issue with good people and villains on both sides. I happen to have evolved to where I have a belief on abortion that is both from my faith and also from my educational background.

This discussion here has been wonderful, and fruitful for me, as it proves again why I have no right (nor does anyone else) to unilaterally attempt to impose that belief on anyone else.

You know, at its best, The Swamp is so much more than about sports! Kudos to all. Peace

[howard]

Science does not take one side or another on this issue. A purely scientific argument can be coherently, logically mounted to reject abortion absolutely. The other way too.

Ethics/morality mix uneasily and weirdly with science, under the best of circumstances (with heavy doses of honesty and sincerity). Add in sincere religious faith, that much tougher. Start subtracting sincerity, intellectual rigor, and other such 'best circumstances', and you get the typical public discourse (on the teevee and in the political places).

It is rewarding and enlightening to indulge in a discussion like this, under the best of circumstances.

[Steve of phpBB]

While you may respect his opinion nowhere did I see SportsDoc indicate that he thinks some/any abortions should be legal. Which means it sounds like he IS in favor of imposing his religious and moral principles on the majority of Americans who support legal and safe access to abortions.

He may be. But is that different from my imposing my moral principles on others who want to commit murder? Or beat puppies?

The problem I have with all of these arguments, whether framed in terms of choice or freedom or imposing your will on others, is that it presupposes a belief about what a fetus is. Is a fetus a person? If so, then abortion is murder and a woman's "choice" doesn't matter. Or is a fetus a bunch of cells? If so, then abortion is fine and the government has no business regulating the inside of a woman's uterus.

[brian]

I don't think that argument is as nebulous as a lot of people like to make it, Steve. I think most reasonable people think that a fetus isn't a person until it reaches the point where it could live outside the womb, a position I've seen Rerun Dave and probably a couple of others make (and one I agree with). Given that, I'm comfortable with legal abortion up to basically the third trimester (except in cases to save the life of the mother which would mean at ANY point in the pregnancy).

I'm even fine if you wanted to err on the side of extreme caution and make it something like 20-22 weeks. (And to echo a few others, as a man I feel kind of icky even having that much of an opinion about it.)

As for the religious argument, I don't get how that matters. There's a lot of laws that religious people don't like that most of them don't agitate to have removed from the books. Drinking, tobacco....you don't see Mormons trying to pull Mountain Dew off the shelves in Utah. At some point your morality has to take a backseat to accepting that a law that you don't agree with, but which positively affects the majority, is something that you should learn to live with instead of trying to impose your morality on the majority.

[howard]

The problem I have with all of these arguments, whether framed in terms of choice or freedom or imposing your will on others, is that it presupposes a belief about what a fetus is. Is a fetus a person? If so, then abortion is murder and a woman's "choice" doesn't matter. Or is a fetus a bunch of cells? If so, then abortion is fine and the government has no business regulating the inside of a woman's uterus.

That is cutting to the core of the issue. And is the personhood of a fetus a fact, a belief, or an ambiguity? (or something else.)

ETA: If this is not a fact, the individual gets to decide, imo. If personhood is a fact, it sure ain't broadly accepted. Facts don't rest on 51-49% either. Sadly, facts change all the time. Facts are stubborn things, as Reagan said; no more stubborn in their predilection for not staying constant. Especially the scientific ones.

[ZMan]

Y'know, I always felt men shouldn't really have a say in the matter.

I used to think this way as well, until it was my baby inside that womb. Also, if you're going to legally enforce men into paying for the care of those children, they deserve some say. (no, that's not saying a guy can force a woman to have an abortion)

[Scottie]

Y'know, I always felt men shouldn't really have a say in the matter.

I used to think this way as well, until it was my baby inside that womb. Also, if you're going to legally enforce men into paying for the care of those children, they deserve some say. (no, that's not saying a guy can force a woman to have an abortion)

Men deserve some say if the child is actually born, sure. That's not an abortion issue, it's a childcare issue.

If a female becomes pregnant and does not want a creature growing inside of her for nine months, I can't conceive of a mindset that forces her to endure that. I sure as hell wouldn't want to.

Now, hey, I'm as right-wing wingnut as this forum gets but when it comes to abortion? I'm as far leftie as possible. I don't exactly walk around handing out coathangers but I do believe that any female that either wants to carry through with a pregnancy or abort it is the one possessed of that decision entirely. Even if I was desperate to have a child, I'd still not contradict a woman's decision to abort it.

Apropos of absolutely nothing, that's from a guy that lost a daughter at a very young age. And when my wife became pregnant a year later (she mistakenly thought she was going through menopause) she decided not to go through with it. Why? It would have cost her her career, cost us a fortune and altered our lives in a way in which we simply didn't want and probably couldn't afford. Even though we shed a million tears over the loss of our little girl before this, happening into "a second chance", as it were, just wasn't in the cards. And that was one-hundred percent her decision.

I simply don't cotton to the idea of a man determining what a woman should do with her body. Life is precious, yes, of course. Her life is precious, too. Having a baby is an enormity. Some women are geared for it, some seem to live for the very fulfillment of a baby, but from my experience the first reaction most women have upon learning they are pregnant is "Oh, damn".

Having said that, to paraphrase Swift, I have no children by which I can propose to compare, that I know of; and my wife past child-bearing.

Completely respect your opinion, make no mistake. And I absolutely see where you're coming from.

[Scottie]

I guess my original point was that abortion is illegal in these countries. Not because of religion but because of stigma? The rate in Korea of Childbirth to abortion is 55-45. In 2011 450000 kids were born and 350000 fetus' aborted. That's astonishing.

Ultrasound. It's been a while since I've visited Korea but, damn, abortion is commonplace there. China, too. Parents are only "supposed" to have one child. Pregnant women have ultrasound tests not simply to determine the health of the child but to identify its sex. If it's female? Heavy chance it will be aborted.

You're absolutely right about the aspect of the culture that is historic and ingrained. Boys have always been prized and girls are a disappointment. I've seen women bawling their eyes out at temples because their child was a girl; asking G-d to forgive them for having a daughter, swearing to G-d that they'll give up eating red meat, they'll pray a dozen times every day, they'll do anything possible if only G-d will grant them a son, to avoid failing as a woman, to avoid her husband being ashamed that his seed was not strong enough to sow a son. My best friend in Korea, with whom I still remain close, is the director of internal medicine at one of the largest hospitals in South Korea. And this man of science, of medicine, was hell bent on his child being a boy. He was frankly obsessed with this. And even though he was a complete atheist, when his wife became pregnant, he'd go to Buddhist temples twice every day, visit fortune tellers and necromancers, employ any superstition imaginable, to "help" her child be born male. When his wife gave birth to a daughter, I congratulated him. He wept. His friends didn't congratulate him; they expressed their regret and offered condolences. So heavy does it weigh on their minds and stature. (Oddly, he named her "Chee-Wun", after a brand of Soju.)

What resulted in that country is that the number of the newest generation of Korean males has heavily outweighed the number of females. So in a typical schoolroom, you'll see about twenty boys and a dozen girls. This will get intriguing when they reach marriage age. There will be a tremendous number of unmarried men compared to women; the women will dominate the selection process (you can see that now in their pop culture). What will the men do? Aside from moving to Canada, that is. Gay culture is going to be huge in Korea; it's burgeoning already, although culturally taboo, ultimately inevitable. Of course the upside is that for gay males it will be a Golden Age.

[testuser2]

When my wife and I were starting to try and have some minions our first resulted in a miscarriage. Unfortunately, in bumble fuck Appalachia there are not many options to have an abortion. We had to go to the local hospital. We checked in and were sent to the surgical waiting area. The waiting area is staffed with volunteers. When we were there it happened to be some blue-haired fossil. These volunteers were there to help with directions(bathrooms) and other general support. They never knew why we were there. Eventually the nurse comes and gets my wife and they head off for the procedure.

Somehow this woman discovered that we were there for an abortion. She missed the detail that the child was already dead. She then comes over to me and begins explaining to me that there are other options(adoption, etc...). She included a few hell references as well. I was dumbfounded. So much so that I just sat there and took it. Eventually she went away and proceeded to give her disapproving looks from her volunteer desk.

It took me a minute or two to pull myself together, but then I went on a walk around the area until I found a nurse. I explained to her what happened and told her that the volunteer had better be gone after I go to get a drink. At that point I was boiling. Hands shaking and everything. The nurse was very helpful. Whatever she did after that point worked. I never saw the volunteer again. Losing your first kid was pretty stressful. My wife took it even harder. I never told her the story.

I still get angry every time I think about it. If she would have done that when my wife was there I probably would have started a riot.